My Little Vent
by The "^" Man · in ThinkTanks · 12/23/2003 (3:17 pm) · 24 replies
To Whom It May Concern, (I am not naming names yet)
If you are a seasoned pro and have skills in scrum act like it. I am noticing a lot of camping in the scrum games by regular players who will go unnamed for now. Demos almost have an excuse to camp because they categorically suck and usually have medium tanks. However, if you have a light tank and got skills unglue the green scrum rings from your ass (oops it slipped).
I am not claiming to be a scrum expert here by any means, but dammit if it isn't annoying to look on radar and see those little red dots siiting tight in the goal. I have played several games in the last few days and have started to just plink campers and let the other players have a fair shot on goal.
In conclusion, be a man, or woman for that sake, and play ethically and go for the scrum chums. The green rings are not your friend unless you have that cute little flag riding on your head.
From this point forward I will be a tattle tail. I will start naming names so the whole TT community will know who the campers are. I will make it a point to ask other players in the game to validate who I feel is camping. Maybe we can start a new sport called "camper hunting" and I can add a few more mounts to my wall.
For those I feel are camping the most I will offer screen shots as proof of there camping offensives.
Happy holidays my friends and may you all be well.
^ (AKA Fem |Bot|)
If you are a seasoned pro and have skills in scrum act like it. I am noticing a lot of camping in the scrum games by regular players who will go unnamed for now. Demos almost have an excuse to camp because they categorically suck and usually have medium tanks. However, if you have a light tank and got skills unglue the green scrum rings from your ass (oops it slipped).
I am not claiming to be a scrum expert here by any means, but dammit if it isn't annoying to look on radar and see those little red dots siiting tight in the goal. I have played several games in the last few days and have started to just plink campers and let the other players have a fair shot on goal.
In conclusion, be a man, or woman for that sake, and play ethically and go for the scrum chums. The green rings are not your friend unless you have that cute little flag riding on your head.
From this point forward I will be a tattle tail. I will start naming names so the whole TT community will know who the campers are. I will make it a point to ask other players in the game to validate who I feel is camping. Maybe we can start a new sport called "camper hunting" and I can add a few more mounts to my wall.
For those I feel are camping the most I will offer screen shots as proof of there camping offensives.
Happy holidays my friends and may you all be well.
^ (AKA Fem |Bot|)
About the author
#2
12/23/2003 (4:06 pm)
I havent seen you in any games lately i think your changing names which isnt bad. so i guess you were the guy complaining to me today that i was camping. i was stopped in the goal 2 seconds. there were two others with me who were camping. just because im the one who stole the scrum right before you scored doesnt mean i was camping.
#4
Ben I have never seen you camp.
I have a feeling that I will be naming names soon as the folks I am referring to do it consistently.
One name for now...Bomberdan I think is his name...constant camper. Shoot his camping buttocks on site.
12/23/2003 (4:25 pm)
Baklava I was not referring to you. You did not do it again so you are off the hook. I am referring to the wieners who literally sit there inside the goal afraid to venture out and try for the scrum.Ben I have never seen you camp.
I have a feeling that I will be naming names soon as the folks I am referring to do it consistently.
One name for now...Bomberdan I think is his name...constant camper. Shoot his camping buttocks on site.
#5
i once tried voicing the same thoughts, and the counter is this. There are no rules in tt as far as tactics go. we may all agree that camping is lazy, dirty, evil...whatever, but it aint illegal. I can only assume that one gets reeeeeeal bored up there on the hill waiting for everyone to come to him, but i guess its an easy way to build a score without really trying.
also, its a slippery slope to start calling out people...i cant tell you how many times someone has accused me of camping when i spawned in the goal 2 seconds earlier. be careful of you'll make enemies.
thats all i've got...
merry xmas all!
12/23/2003 (4:32 pm)
Oy, you open an ancient argument...i once tried voicing the same thoughts, and the counter is this. There are no rules in tt as far as tactics go. we may all agree that camping is lazy, dirty, evil...whatever, but it aint illegal. I can only assume that one gets reeeeeeal bored up there on the hill waiting for everyone to come to him, but i guess its an easy way to build a score without really trying.
also, its a slippery slope to start calling out people...i cant tell you how many times someone has accused me of camping when i spawned in the goal 2 seconds earlier. be careful of you'll make enemies.
thats all i've got...
merry xmas all!
#6
In camper's support: a camper to survive must kill other campers in battlemode (eg. clean the goal). If they are the only one camper surviving, they may have earn the right to control around the goal. (especially team scrum).
As to me I enjoy running the scrum. That's where the fun lays for me, to try to outwit and outrun the other tanks. Of course it's disappointing to do a mind-blowing great run and being prevented to score cause someone sits in the goal... Well then one must retreat or try to outwit the camper.
I think camping is worst in solo scrum (which I hardly play anymore). In team mode, it is somehow validated, re. your team controlling the goal is good.
Like I said before....
'campers are moving rocks'
HB
12/23/2003 (4:55 pm)
I don't know what's all the fuss about campers. They are part of the game, since it is impossible to prevent it. Of all the best players I know, they all 'camped' at one point or another, i.e. waited around the goal in the hope of a last second steal.In camper's support: a camper to survive must kill other campers in battlemode (eg. clean the goal). If they are the only one camper surviving, they may have earn the right to control around the goal. (especially team scrum).
As to me I enjoy running the scrum. That's where the fun lays for me, to try to outwit and outrun the other tanks. Of course it's disappointing to do a mind-blowing great run and being prevented to score cause someone sits in the goal... Well then one must retreat or try to outwit the camper.
I think camping is worst in solo scrum (which I hardly play anymore). In team mode, it is somehow validated, re. your team controlling the goal is good.
Like I said before....
'campers are moving rocks'
HB
#7
Point 1:
I do not understand why this bothers some folx so much as there are several viable strategies that render it unprofitable. the flying score for example.
On the same hand there are tactical situations which make "camping" a good alternative. In TeamScrum, for instance, a camper can invite the attention of several opponents, and distract them from the sriker thereby providing a local superiority of force for one's team mates and maximizing the chance of scoring a goal. In ChaosScrum camping can be the quickest way for a smoking tank with low ammo to recharge and move a great distance in a short time.
Point 2:
Since there is not a 1 to 1 correspondence between the radar and the game the dots you saw circling the goal may not be the same players who are at the goal when you arrive.
Point 3:
Camping is not well defined. Is a tank idling midway between the ball and the goal a camper? How about closer to the goal than the ball? Closer to the ball than the goal? Is everyone who is not pursuing the ball carrier a camper? Are we to reduce the game to a single tactic: First player to the ball picks it up and everyone else falls in behind and shoots at him.
Point 4:
Five irrefutable reasons for camping in ChaosScrum (ie. staying closer to the goal than to the ball carrier)
a) You spawned there and everyone is headed your direction.
b) You spawned somewhere else but nearer the goal than the ball.
c) Some dingus has taken the ball into the tully weeds.
d) Everyone else is chasing the ball carrier and the goal is open.
e) You are just plain tired and wish rest for a moment.
Good reasons to not stay *inside* the goal.
1) It's difficult to see out.
2) Should you gain possesion of the ball you will have to leave an re-enter to scrore.
3) Everyone will shoot at you.
4) Other players will score from your blind side.
5) You won't score many points.
Point 5:
Let others employ whatever tactic they desire and develop techniques to render that tactic unprofitable.
In scrum there are only three heinous crimes.
A) Intentionally cliff diving with the ball. (a felony punishable by hounding & killing)
B) Arbitrarily killing other players , engaging in BattleMode or continually attacking another player, particularly after having been requested to cease such unsportsmanlike behavior. (a felony punishable by hounding & killing)
C) Abusive or racist language, grossly offensive player names and spamming. (a felony punishable by hounding & killing)
slugthog assgard the aged voice of reason
12/23/2003 (5:16 pm)
Re: CampingPoint 1:
I do not understand why this bothers some folx so much as there are several viable strategies that render it unprofitable. the flying score for example.
On the same hand there are tactical situations which make "camping" a good alternative. In TeamScrum, for instance, a camper can invite the attention of several opponents, and distract them from the sriker thereby providing a local superiority of force for one's team mates and maximizing the chance of scoring a goal. In ChaosScrum camping can be the quickest way for a smoking tank with low ammo to recharge and move a great distance in a short time.
Point 2:
Since there is not a 1 to 1 correspondence between the radar and the game the dots you saw circling the goal may not be the same players who are at the goal when you arrive.
Point 3:
Camping is not well defined. Is a tank idling midway between the ball and the goal a camper? How about closer to the goal than the ball? Closer to the ball than the goal? Is everyone who is not pursuing the ball carrier a camper? Are we to reduce the game to a single tactic: First player to the ball picks it up and everyone else falls in behind and shoots at him.
Point 4:
Five irrefutable reasons for camping in ChaosScrum (ie. staying closer to the goal than to the ball carrier)
a) You spawned there and everyone is headed your direction.
b) You spawned somewhere else but nearer the goal than the ball.
c) Some dingus has taken the ball into the tully weeds.
d) Everyone else is chasing the ball carrier and the goal is open.
e) You are just plain tired and wish rest for a moment.
Good reasons to not stay *inside* the goal.
1) It's difficult to see out.
2) Should you gain possesion of the ball you will have to leave an re-enter to scrore.
3) Everyone will shoot at you.
4) Other players will score from your blind side.
5) You won't score many points.
Point 5:
Let others employ whatever tactic they desire and develop techniques to render that tactic unprofitable.
In scrum there are only three heinous crimes.
A) Intentionally cliff diving with the ball. (a felony punishable by hounding & killing)
B) Arbitrarily killing other players , engaging in BattleMode or continually attacking another player, particularly after having been requested to cease such unsportsmanlike behavior. (a felony punishable by hounding & killing)
C) Abusive or racist language, grossly offensive player names and spamming. (a felony punishable by hounding & killing)
slugthog assgard the aged voice of reason
#8
but that only if i spawn near the goal and i would never camp in solo scrum thats just wrong
12/23/2003 (5:24 pm)
I only camp in team scrum but not to score to blow up the other teams tanks as they come leting my team get the scrum ball and scorebut that only if i spawn near the goal and i would never camp in solo scrum thats just wrong
#9
Gnomie - "le camping -> 3km"
12/23/2003 (5:26 pm)
There's nothing worse than an empty goal, particularly when you've trekked right across the map just in time to see someone score in it.Gnomie - "le camping -> 3km"
#10
dead campers are finished camping.
on a break away, chased by the minions of evil, you have to do some calculations re: your health and the distance between you and the pack, needless to say the terrain, all of which combine to determine your envelope of maneuverability.
perhaps 10-25/100 of the time, i have to peel off and scrub the run. i find i have to do this less and less lately. the rest is divided somewhere between death, theft, scoring and whiffing. these are runs im referring to. the rest of the time, campers are really a non-issue. get on with it, who cares. eventually, everyone who camps becomes less of a camper. it isn't satisfying (on an individual basis), and nobody really wants to be hated. Besides, you don't learn shit sitting in there: i've yet to meet 1 on 1 a dedicated camper that couldn't be caught with his pants down. [good examples of evolved campers: Myself and FP].
(as an aside, i still play exactly the same way i did when i was a demo. i was *called* a camper at times because of proximity to the goal versus proximity to the carrier. nobody said we *have* to chase like [greyhounds.]
ill track down the first thread, sometime around july...
the conclusions there are still relevant.
bottom line 1.
campers never win individual games, thought it does make your task particularly unsavory.
bottom line 2.
i forgot, but will fill in when i remember.
bottom line 3.
team scrum is much more satisfying, and "camping" there is irrelevant. also, it requires more skills to play well. give it a whirl. not only are you playing *against* fewer people, but you've got 4 people beside you who *want* you to score.
BL4
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=10659
12/23/2003 (7:32 pm)
Meh, i posted something in the OG camper thread like 8 months ago. It's irritating, more so at some times as opposed to others, but it is a tactic nonetheless, and it can be dealt with. dead campers are finished camping.
on a break away, chased by the minions of evil, you have to do some calculations re: your health and the distance between you and the pack, needless to say the terrain, all of which combine to determine your envelope of maneuverability.
perhaps 10-25/100 of the time, i have to peel off and scrub the run. i find i have to do this less and less lately. the rest is divided somewhere between death, theft, scoring and whiffing. these are runs im referring to. the rest of the time, campers are really a non-issue. get on with it, who cares. eventually, everyone who camps becomes less of a camper. it isn't satisfying (on an individual basis), and nobody really wants to be hated. Besides, you don't learn shit sitting in there: i've yet to meet 1 on 1 a dedicated camper that couldn't be caught with his pants down. [good examples of evolved campers: Myself and FP].
(as an aside, i still play exactly the same way i did when i was a demo. i was *called* a camper at times because of proximity to the goal versus proximity to the carrier. nobody said we *have* to chase like [greyhounds.]
ill track down the first thread, sometime around july...
the conclusions there are still relevant.
bottom line 1.
campers never win individual games, thought it does make your task particularly unsavory.
bottom line 2.
i forgot, but will fill in when i remember.
bottom line 3.
team scrum is much more satisfying, and "camping" there is irrelevant. also, it requires more skills to play well. give it a whirl. not only are you playing *against* fewer people, but you've got 4 people beside you who *want* you to score.
BL4
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=10659
#11
12/23/2003 (7:52 pm)
I believed some other players also had this concern awhile back. The conculsion from that thread was that, if someone camps they just become a 1 trick hack. Thus no real skill is ever learn or used. As a runner this is just one of the other many obstacles that you have to learn how to overcome. Once knowing how to avoid and trick the campers, you wont have to feel them as a problem or nussance. Once a camper starts seeing their 1 camping trick does not work he/she must learn other ways on how to score and so moving that player from camper to chaser/runner.
#12
"Him" rises to his feet
"I used to hate campers too, but now I see their value"
applause
In the early days I was very offended by campers and would
hunt them down with a vengance. But I have mellowed in my
old age and actually see them as useful. Wait, wait let me
explain. I don't play much these days and often will play
pick up games with a bunch of newbies rather than waiting
for or hunting down the good players. If no one is at the
goal then the poor performance of the players at chasing
down a runner will allow a slightly better player to score
easily. But... with a few campers the runner gets slowed
down or blocked giving me time to get there and steal the
scrum and score. I have found that while I lose the occasional
score to a camper they never win. In a game full of good
players there is no need to worry about campers.
Him returns to his battered and rusty old light tank to resume
hunting windmills.
12/24/2003 (6:57 am)
The crowd quiets"Him" rises to his feet
"I used to hate campers too, but now I see their value"
applause
In the early days I was very offended by campers and would
hunt them down with a vengance. But I have mellowed in my
old age and actually see them as useful. Wait, wait let me
explain. I don't play much these days and often will play
pick up games with a bunch of newbies rather than waiting
for or hunting down the good players. If no one is at the
goal then the poor performance of the players at chasing
down a runner will allow a slightly better player to score
easily. But... with a few campers the runner gets slowed
down or blocked giving me time to get there and steal the
scrum and score. I have found that while I lose the occasional
score to a camper they never win. In a game full of good
players there is no need to worry about campers.
Him returns to his battered and rusty old light tank to resume
hunting windmills.
#14
*
P.S. by the way, I'm just wondering LC, but how can you be a runner if you're in a heavy? It would seem difficult, to say the least. The heavy's scrum game, I would think, is basically camping, or at least not chasing.
12/24/2003 (8:37 am)
Me, my strategy is similar to LC50's but works a little better, and hopefully doesn't offend people too much. If there are campers in the goal, especiallly several, I know that I'm probably not skilled enough to both lure them out and keep from getting powdered by the pack on my tailpipe. Upon deciding that there's no way for me to score just then (without a convenient jump pad, at least) I simply turn around and head off in a different direction. Often there is a boost soon enough, and if the pack is far enough behind, I can often circle the entire map (once I went from reload to the hill in the opposite corner and back on Freudian) and come right back in. Often the campers have somehow left, the pack has finished each other off in their fury, and I can waltz in after a long run for an easy goal. Of course, sometimes I'm finished off halfway around the map, but usually after respawn i can make it back in time for a good goal fight. Freudian is the best for this, because of its handy set of boost pads that go in opposite directions (one on Reload Ridge, and the other two in the flat fields). I simply take one out and the other right back in. If the goal's in the right place, it's a piece of cake.*
P.S. by the way, I'm just wondering LC, but how can you be a runner if you're in a heavy? It would seem difficult, to say the least. The heavy's scrum game, I would think, is basically camping, or at least not chasing.
#15
also, i've seen prettty much everyone that has posted on this thread camp at one time or another.
I use every trick i can to get past campers. I won't run off or cliff dive. I'll blast my way in, draw them outta the goal and just go around them, and my favorite where ya go flying through the goal.
12/24/2003 (10:30 am)
I've been seeing your tactic a lot latley asterisk. I don't really like it and i've come to the point where i can tell when someone is about to run off. so i focus all my attention on killing them before they can do so.also, i've seen prettty much everyone that has posted on this thread camp at one time or another.
I use every trick i can to get past campers. I won't run off or cliff dive. I'll blast my way in, draw them outta the goal and just go around them, and my favorite where ya go flying through the goal.
#16
Is cliff diving a legitimate strategy?
I have pondered this one more than a little but I have yet to come to a comfortable solution.
PROS:
Cliff diving initiates three events. It respawns the character. It respawns the goal. It respawns the ball. Statistics tells us that it is more likely that two of those events will occur near one another more frequently than all three will happen at widely distributed locations. So the cliff diver is a bit more likely to spawn near the ball or the goal than he is to spawn distant from both of them.
On Freudian, for instance, with 17 spawn locations, a cluster of eight in one corner and a cluster of five in the adjacent corner there is a good chance that the cliff diver will spawn near both the ball and the goal. If the current goal is distant from either of those clusters then cliff diving favors the cliff diver. If the current goal is within either of those clusters then cliff diving favors the defenders.
CONS:
Cliff diving has a petulant flavor, a sense of "if I can't score then no one gets to score", a bit of "win at any cost". Many, if not most, of us play ThinkTanks and an enjoyable amusement. I'm not saying that we do not play our best or that we are not competitive. All of us certainly have an abundance of competitive bones in our bodies and few of us are daunted by a hard fought scrum.
From my own perspective, I enjoy the pushing and shoving of goal line battles, the management of health and ammunition resources and successful, or thwarted attempts, at the clever steal that gains me the point. I even enjoy other players successes in these battles. I am both annoyed and delighted when Tanky bounces and flips through a cluster of defenders to score that impossible goal or when a lurking Flea pounces from from hiding to snatch victory from my grasp. There is strategy in defense that is, for me, lacking in the randomness of a long chase.
I realize that there are players who feel that having successfully run the long chase they deserve the reward of a goal at the end. I simply disagree. The object of scrum is to put the ball into the goal. A player hasn't earned anything until he accomplishes that. sure it can be frustrating to break through the pack, kill the ball carrier and grab up the ball only to find yourself confronted by a wall of defenders but folks, all those other players knew where you were headed and there is no reason for them to make it easy for you to score by running along behind you shouting and waving their arms in the air. Instead of taking the easy out of cliff diving, take it outside, make the defenders come to you, they will at least some of them, because they want to score just as much as you do.
If I were asked my opinion I would favor that a point be subtracted from a player's total, and the team total, anytime he leaves the field while in possession of the ball. Then again, YMMV (your mileage may vary).
sluggy the eternally long winded
12/24/2003 (11:38 am)
@LC50Is cliff diving a legitimate strategy?
I have pondered this one more than a little but I have yet to come to a comfortable solution.
PROS:
Cliff diving initiates three events. It respawns the character. It respawns the goal. It respawns the ball. Statistics tells us that it is more likely that two of those events will occur near one another more frequently than all three will happen at widely distributed locations. So the cliff diver is a bit more likely to spawn near the ball or the goal than he is to spawn distant from both of them.
On Freudian, for instance, with 17 spawn locations, a cluster of eight in one corner and a cluster of five in the adjacent corner there is a good chance that the cliff diver will spawn near both the ball and the goal. If the current goal is distant from either of those clusters then cliff diving favors the cliff diver. If the current goal is within either of those clusters then cliff diving favors the defenders.
CONS:
Cliff diving has a petulant flavor, a sense of "if I can't score then no one gets to score", a bit of "win at any cost". Many, if not most, of us play ThinkTanks and an enjoyable amusement. I'm not saying that we do not play our best or that we are not competitive. All of us certainly have an abundance of competitive bones in our bodies and few of us are daunted by a hard fought scrum.
From my own perspective, I enjoy the pushing and shoving of goal line battles, the management of health and ammunition resources and successful, or thwarted attempts, at the clever steal that gains me the point. I even enjoy other players successes in these battles. I am both annoyed and delighted when Tanky bounces and flips through a cluster of defenders to score that impossible goal or when a lurking Flea pounces from from hiding to snatch victory from my grasp. There is strategy in defense that is, for me, lacking in the randomness of a long chase.
I realize that there are players who feel that having successfully run the long chase they deserve the reward of a goal at the end. I simply disagree. The object of scrum is to put the ball into the goal. A player hasn't earned anything until he accomplishes that. sure it can be frustrating to break through the pack, kill the ball carrier and grab up the ball only to find yourself confronted by a wall of defenders but folks, all those other players knew where you were headed and there is no reason for them to make it easy for you to score by running along behind you shouting and waving their arms in the air. Instead of taking the easy out of cliff diving, take it outside, make the defenders come to you, they will at least some of them, because they want to score just as much as you do.
If I were asked my opinion I would favor that a point be subtracted from a player's total, and the team total, anytime he leaves the field while in possession of the ball. Then again, YMMV (your mileage may vary).
sluggy the eternally long winded
#17
jangles
12/24/2003 (12:06 pm)
Wasn't a great deal of this thread covered here www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=12937?jangles
#18
I am referring to individual scrum games not team scrum. The strategies are a bit different.
How can I tell who is a camper and who just got to the goal right before me? The little red dot(s) on radar that sit there immobile in or next to the goal not moving the whole time I am running toward the goal with the scrum...Those are the bastages I am referring to as campers.
Some brainiac said there are no rules in scrum. There is also no "rule" that states I cannot bathe in my own urine. Point being, there may not be rules, but there are these little things called ethics or common sense. Earn the goal, don't be a wanker and wait for the scrum to come to you and score some cheap a$$ goal.
Enough said.
12/27/2003 (11:49 am)
Some clarification....I am referring to individual scrum games not team scrum. The strategies are a bit different.
How can I tell who is a camper and who just got to the goal right before me? The little red dot(s) on radar that sit there immobile in or next to the goal not moving the whole time I am running toward the goal with the scrum...Those are the bastages I am referring to as campers.
Some brainiac said there are no rules in scrum. There is also no "rule" that states I cannot bathe in my own urine. Point being, there may not be rules, but there are these little things called ethics or common sense. Earn the goal, don't be a wanker and wait for the scrum to come to you and score some cheap a$$ goal.
Enough said.
#19
but I do make some long runs from time to time.
Cadc (sa)
12/27/2003 (11:52 am)
Well, I only camp when I spawn near the goal, or if I can beat the flag bearer to the scrum goal and steal it from him..but I do make some long runs from time to time.
Cadc (sa)
Sizicus
I don't know anyone who's a respected, decent, player who camps.