Bad Topic for game... Your opinion

#61 Let me expand on this.

A game can revolve around any subject. It doesn't mean it will be popular or even worth playing. Some pile of corporate shit decided that SkyDiving Extreme for PS2 is a worthy title. Is this the ONLY example? Hell no. The industry is saturated with crap, and the sad thing is that most of those will sell more copies than most indies will ever see.

Now is THAT fair?

God forbid that an Indie can actually speak his mind and put forth ideas, no matter how crackpot they may seem. This IS the niche that Indies can fullfill and the corporates will NEVER be able to touch it. Ever.

Controversy is NEVER bad, it makes us think, and then rethink. And that is what makes us grow- not stagnation. Are there titles that shouldn't be made? I don't think so. Entertainment is Darwinism at its best. The strongest survive, and all else is quickly extinct. Think of how fast the Entertainment Industry is to jump on the bandwagon of popular ideas (Reality TV), and all else is kicked to the curb and quickly forgotten.

There are certain things that squeak by, and those contain a cult following (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, South Park). They don't have a massively-wide appeal, and are completely niche-cult driven.

So why do I think that there is no such thing as "a title that shouldn't be made"? Because I believe that the consumer is smarter than we give them credit. Because I think the public is responsible, and able to determine where to draw the line on their own accord. Because I think a title that is "too far out" will eventually weed itself out and quickly go the way of the dodo.

#62 So does this mean that Game Developers are irresponsible if they develop games that are contrary to ideals? No. But I think what scares the living shit out of people is that games like GTA3 ARE popular. This isn't some kind of corporate brainwashing, this is what the PEOPLE determined to be worthy of their time.

GTA3 is so open ended that I CAN act the part of some whacko that goes on a sniping spree, eluding the police. I can become a serial killer that targets prostitutes. Or, I can just drive around in a Taxicab and pickup or deliver people like a normal person.

So what if a game like "KKK: Hang da Niggaz High" was created and became extremely popular? I would think that we need to look into WHY its popular, why those concepts are appealing, and who is buying it. This speaks more into pop culture and society than banning such a title EVER could.

As a Native American, I don't even find Custers Revenge to be distasteful. In fact, there is more TRUTH in that game than anything. Rape was common, and I am forced to deal with what happened to my ancestors. Denying it sure as hell won't resolve anything.

#63

Quote:Eric, believe me, NOBODY expects you to know how to make a game fun.

Taking the high road again, Randall?

As I'll say for one final time: I censored no one. I pointed out distaste when I saw distaste. I see a whole lot of it, here.

If you wish to make a game called "Torture the Baby", go for it. But don't you dare chastize me for saying that I oppose the idea--and most certainly don't expect me to give "constructive criticism".

This convo is going no where.

-Eric F

#64 Once again, Eric, nobody expects you to provide constructive criticism. You seem to act like everything revolves around YOU. This thread was pretty much dying, until you revived it with your rhetoric.

So if the conversation isn't going YOUR way, then apparently its going NOWHERE. That sounds about right. There is a HUGE opposition to me in this thread, yet I think it contains alot of redeeming value and insight, and ALL the opinions are worthy of discussion.

I don't see how Bryan Edds commentary is any worse than what you are promoting. In fact, I don't see any difference between what the Al Queda is doing now, compared to the massive slaughters of the Christian Crusades. The Cusades killed literally MILLIONS, while the Al Queda have only killed Thousands. Stick that in your ass, let it fester for a while, and tell me what you think.

#65 Randall,

Only one of us is being an ass.

-Eric

#66

Quote:Only one of us is being an ass.

That would be me. So what, sue me. Or how about this, as you put it so elequently, "Put up or shut up". I seriously want to know what you think about that subject, because I would LOVE to hear it.

#67 I do wish you'd take a deep breath and enjoy life, sometimes.
You are all over the board with your subjects.

Ok. First, we cannot compare the whole of Crusades vs the one Arabic sect called Al Queda. I don't know if Catholic v. Islamic would be better?

Second, give me a resource (link) where it shows "MILLIONS" of Arabic deaths.

Third, only the First Crusade was successful! Granted, many still died.

Fourth, I take it that you believe no Christians died in the Crusades?

And finally, it really is a shame you took the low road. You can believe what you wish, but the way you have conducted yourself in this thread has made me question the validity other threads, such as the recently resourced one.

But of course, I'm sure you'll tell me you don't care and to stick it somewhere and let it fester.

#68 1)Christianities destruction proceeded well into the early history of the US, as they did EXACTLY the same thing to the Native Americans in North AND South America as they did in Europe.

Its not a matter of Catholic VS Islam, its a matter of how both had their perverted extremes. I know many Muslims, yet none of them would hurt a fly. I know many Catholics, and none would hurt a fly.

2) Arabic deaths? This is where your narrow focus takes you. They tore through Europe like wet toilet paper, killing millions, destroying villages, pillaging, and sparing only those who converted. Again, I point you to the destruction of entire civilizations of the Inca, Aztecs and Mayans in South America.

3) Only the FIRST crusade succeeded? Isn't ONE success enough? Again, I point you to Christianity' long history that extends beyond the crusades.

4) Many Christians have died for the sake of God, just as many Muslims have died for the sake of Allah. This parallel actually blurs the line even further.

5) Question me and my validity all you want. in fact, I welcome it. I am not somebody's bitchboy nor somebody's puppet. I'll tell it like it is, and I have no hidden agendas. I will not hide behind idealism as an excuse for ANYTHING. I will not hide the truths of the industry (the limited knowledge that I have), nor pamper someone into delusion by witholding important info. So far, my only crime is that I PROMOTE the idea that developers should enjoy the freedom to create whatever they want, and let the chips fall where they may.

6) Finally I am not anti-Christian, nor pro-Islam. But so far, I have not seen any differentiation between what both accomplished by slaughtering innocent people. Yet many will stand and try to draw that diffinitive line, where none exists.

#69 1) Huh? I thought we were talking about the European Crusades. Oh. You're jumping topics again to attempt to prove some point by confounding the statements.

Quote:2) Arabic deaths? This is where your narrow focus takes you.

And this is where your ego takes you. It was you that brought up the Arabics (specifically Al Queda). Focus, Grasshopper.

As I said in the last message, you are all over the board with your statements. I honestly think you are talking out of your ass on most of it.

Only an idiot can't see that I have censored no one, and even proposed it may be a good idea (for the terrorist fighting game). I don't know what's gotten under your skin, or if your ego has grown over successfully copying from an old game, but no matter--I'm finished. Merry ways...

-Eric

#70 Hey Randall, forget about Eric. I can tell you from personal experience that he's not worth your time or energy. I say let 'im say whatever he wants - none of it will stick because he has no credibility anyways. You're the one with credibility here, don't squander it on him ;)

#71 Whoa partner,

I don't know you, and I don't think we've even talked outside this thread--unless you were one that asked some noob questions and were too damn lazy to look them up?

(in case he decides to edit/delete again):

Quote:Hey Randall, forget about Eric. I can tell you from personal experience that he's not worth your time or energy. I say let 'im say whatever he wants - none of it will stick because he has no credibility anyways. You're the one with credibility here, don't squander it on him ;)

#72 Ahh... I forgot I was done with this thread. I'll take it off notify so I'm not even tempted to look.

Randall and Bryan, you have both really shown your ass here. You've also alienated a pretty decent resource since I know I've been using Torque longer than both of you combined.

-Eric

#73 At least I CAN jump topics and still prove a point. You have yet to prove a damn thing.

We can focus on the European Crusades if you wish, but at no point was I referring to how many ARABS were killed, in fact that is non-factor. The point is, the Christians killed civillians and innocents simply because they didn't fit their ideal. Which is exactly what the Al Queda has done.

Now could the Christian Crusades be classified as terrorism?

Quote:A terrorist is one that seeks to cause terror in the hearts of civilians by attacking civilians.

It seems to fit your earlier definition. Furthermore, the Crusades were for political and religious reasons, and completely focused on non-military civillian targets.

Gee, it seems to also describe the Al Queda. The problem is, people have a much more difficult time digesting this when the tables are turned. Denial and excuses abound. Sure there are places where these two perverted extremes are different, but there seems to be far more that draw them together.

Thank God the Al Queda is far less successful.

You don't have the power to censor anyone. Again, this is a self-centered concept, and to assume that you would even have this power is laughable.

And I was HOPING the topic of copying an old game would be brought up. This is the direct result of SEEING opportunity and grabbing it while you can. I have never played Worms World Party- in fact only ONE person on our team has (out of 4), and that was the coder. Only because he needed that knowledge to design the gameplay.

However, it was our complete lack of knowledge of the game that allowed the content providers (audio technician and two artists) to create its unique gameplay within a proven framework.

Everyone knows that even Worms wasn't an original concept, as it was modeled after Scorched Earth- which ALSO wasn't an original concept.

Our acknowledgement of that opportunity positioned us very high in the industry, and we continued to improve and expand the game. We aren't the ONLY clone, we are only the most successful. This is also an example of how a clone can actually outsell the ORIGINAL, by grabbing that position early-on. Could we be as successful if we had waited until after Worms World Party launched? Probably not.

THAT is how opportunity works.

#74 Wow...

Never thought the GG forums would remind me of the GameDev or Flipcode forums. This is getting just petty, mainly because people can't be professional about things-and that's what we all aim to be, or else we wouldn't be on these boards.

You know, telling someone that their comments aren't worth anything because you don't like their comments is just as censoring as any other form of censorship. The thread started with a request for opinions, which were given in abundance. Just because one person does not agree with another's opinion in this thread does not take away the validity of that person's opinion(even if that opinion is right or wrong).

I think everyone needs to step back and chill out...

One thing I notice on these forums lately is that people are starting to flame others more and more for their opinions instead of discussing or agreeing to disagree. There is a line between arguing the point and arguing the person who is arguing the point, and this thread has crossed it.

I think we made some decent arguments on both sides about the original intent of this thread, and that's a good thing, and it shouldn't be lost to deletion because the thread has decended into petty squabbling. And yes, it has gotten very, very petty as of late...

Where's the resources? Where's the ideas to make this game more fun? Where's listed arguments and counter-arguments to the thread's original question? Where's the professionalism? What the hell are we doing go at each other like this? Is this team building? Is this anything creative or constructive? No, not at all.

If it continues down this road, I'd rather the thread get destroyed than keep on, as it only serves to erode sense of community that GarageGames is built on.

#75 I don't use Torque, although it is by far the best solution we have found. When we wrap up our current games, we hope to use Torque to expand our possibilities.

But what does this have to do with anything?

#76 I think the very nature of the "original question" is far more complex than anyone anticipated. We can try to make the answers black and white, but that would be doing a great disservice to the developers. We can all be approving and pat each others back. We can all rip a game apart as good as the next guy. But again, both of those are a great disservice to developers.

I watch the Forums. I know who gushes over every game, and applauds every effort. Those people are useless to me, because I want REAL insight and REAL answers and REAL opinions. I need answers to difficult questions and I need honesty. I don't need an ego boost (apparently I have an over-abundance of that). I am not seeking approval or friends through self-congratulatory back-patting.

Also, Erics political and religious ideals have NOTHING to do with his professionalism or ability to create a model. My professionalism lies in the fact that I can look beyond his personal opinions, and determine his potential, credibility and ability to create a mesh. If I was creating a game of questionable content or tastelessness, I wouldn't contact him because I respect his opinions and his morality. We all need to draw the line somewhere, and its different for every person.

Now whether he would even consider working with me is up to him, but my door is always open. What I like is the fact that Eric isn't simply agreeable just for the sake of agreement. He isn't a "yes" man.

Bryan is definately a person that you could contact for ANY project, and I would feel completely comfortable doing so. I don't always agree with everything he says, but again, that can't be held against him or his skills as a coder, musician and 3D artist. (I actually need a musician NOW!)

I have never seen any of their works, but I can tell you that their personal opinions do not sway me one way or the other. If I ever get the opportunity to see their work, it will be guaranteed that it will stand on its own.

Now, does this sound like its tearing a community apart? To tell you the truth, many of you seem like the same person, and I can't tell most of you apart. There are a couple that stand out, but only because they have a personality trait, like Tim, who promotes the Christian Game Developer Conference (who get kudos simply for attempting to grow this largely neglected industry). Communities are based on those you hate to love, and those you love to hate, and everything else in between. Without that, there is nothing to bond us together except the desire to create games- which technically isn't a community but rather a huge depot of resources. We can get resources ANYWHERE.

#77 The company I used to work for released a game a couple of weeks after 9/11 must say I didn't approve and neither did most of the dev team but the date had been fixed before the event and the game was released ob schedule and got a pretty massive reception despite being lackluster at best.

As far as the terrorism goes, If a game was more than simple black and white, and actually educated people about what and why terrorism happens I don't think theres a problem. It could be argued that the USA came about through acts of terrorism on the part of the miiltia that rose up and fought the then imperialistic English.

Being British myself and having spent a large portion of my youth growing up in the far east as well as parts of eastern europe I'm more qualified than most. I can sympathise with terrorists and their motivations, just not the way they go about trying to resolve it. Unfortunately it seems like this kind of conflict will never cease as a solution has never yet been found and never will be. Sometimes the only way to be heard is to fight for what you truly believe in. I'm not willing to judge anyones motives without first trying to understand them and trying to find a solution. MOst people that grow up in a western society can not even begin to understand what motivates people in the east as the 2 cultures, their motivations and structure of their societies and what their experience and requirements for survival are, are completely alien to one another.

Only way to win these kinds of wars is education, but generaly that doesn't make a good subject for a game. Would be nice if people would get along and some people could get off of their high horse but it rarely happens without a fight, so things will keep revolving just like this discussion on the forums. All the same thing in the end just on a smaller insignificant scale.

#78 @Tysoe: True point on how the USA's break from the UK can be seen.

Terrorists, on the whole, are not limited to Europe, Asia, or the Middle East. As ignorant about the subject as americans are in general, we've been living with domestic terrorist groups for decades. The SLA, Weather Underground, Black Panthers, the KKK, various militia movements, AIM(not the chat program, though it comes close, lol), and now the ELF(who have commited over 300 "criminal" acts in the last few years and have a man on the FBI's most wanted list... they are also sponsored financially by PETA, which is very interesting, since setting fires to homes isn't all that safe for nearby animals and plants).

Al Qaeda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the PLO all have training bases here as well as staging fund raising. Only Al Qaeda was ballsy enough to take us on while simultaneously using our freedom to train themselves, which is a slick tactic. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezzbollah, etc, knew that we spend money on Palestine even though we officially support Israel, so they weren't about to bite the hand that feeds them(except in a few cases, which are largely ignored by the media until after 9/11, but have been building up in frequency for years).

@Sam: You know what would be a nice twist on terrorist games? Actually tracking down the guy, in an "I-spy" sort of way, with a splash of splinter cell/mission impossible thrown in. There's plenty of literature out there for equipment, tactics, plots and scenarios(never seen a game deal with stockholm syndrome yet, or undercover ops and surveillance/counter-surveillance operations in which stealth-in-plain-sight is the key).

Here's an idea for ya: A small group is building an EMP weapon to airburst over a major metropolitan port city. The resulting blast would render every electromechanical device in the city forever useless, blacking out the city, destroying it's commerce, disrupting the economy, and killing thousands of people(hospitals would completely fail because of the EMP, traffic accidents, and if you set it in winter, a whole load of people would die from the cold). Create a team that has tactical, intelligence, and investigative abilities, and you have a nice, well-rounded form of gameplay to build around. Pick a terror group, make one up, etc. Pick an important port city to do this to. Blacking out a town in the middle of nowhere won't do. If you make the plot, characters, and situation deep enough, you can make episodic content(are there other cells of this group?), or sequels, etc.