Indie or Death

#21 Great stuff Randall, thanks a lot for those insights! It's nice to see someone posting some real figures and straight information, and I think your success should be an inspiration for other Indie developers. I checked out the planetschoogie website, very nice looking and they also use 'straight english', rather than meaningless corporate speak.

I also checked out your own website, and I'm looking forward to your PC version of Snails very much!

Oh, I should second something that Dylan mentioned above - I think this would make a great resource, if you have the time to compile it all and turn it into a 'case study' kind of document. As you say, these things take time to 'brew' and mature, and this kind of information should have a prominent position where it's easy to find for new developers. I for one will be contacting planetschnoogie about my own project, in the near future.

Thanks for a very interesting read, some great information, and keep it coming!

-Darren.

#22

Quote:there is some point where customer gets the feeling that product offered for such a low price must be inferior.

To a certain extent, that is true. But if someone offered you to test drive a Mercedes Benz and sell it to you for $100, and it would be legally yours complete with title, would you take it? You might do a little more investigating, and research because it sounds outrageous. But what if you STILL found out it was legit, the only stipulation is that you CAN'T resell it (for whatever reason)? Would you take it?

Probably. Why?

1) You test drove it, so you know it works.

2) Mercedes Benz has a HUGE reputation.

3) The car is worth FAR more than that.

4) Its legit.

5) This deal can't possibly last forever, can it?

If a PC game sells for $4 at GarageGames, and a demo is available, how can I lose? I can test it, if it sucks so bad its not worth $4 then I'll move on. But what if I find out its more enriching than the last retail game I bought for $45? Am I going to bypass it because it must be inferior somehow due to pricing? HELL no.

So that "inferiority theory" is only true in the brick-and-mortar stores, where it is more difficult to compare products. But even then, people usually research beforehand, especially if its an expensive purchase. Reputation can go a long way, so it really pays for you to have excellent Marketing and PR, whether you do it yourself or pay someone else. So what devs need to do is get busy building their reputations. Which is what PlanetSchnoogie and PDAmill did- Every new game is greeted with "these guys produce excellent games for an excellent price and I have NEVER been disappointed"

Some people bought their latest game, sight unseen without a demo, simply because of the reputation of PDAmill.

Eventually, I am going to get off my ass and produce a PC game (still working on a mobile game). I have a million ideas, and we'll once again put our theories into practice. If we fail, great. We'll be back with ANOTHER report for you guys to tell you what NOT to do. So either way, Indies will come out ahead. Thats what we're all about.

#23 Mmm, yes, cant argue since you take PDAmill as an example.
But the there are several "..buts" here:

you assume the company has a reputation (good). It works in PDAmill example, doesnt work for all (gotta start somewhere, right?)

you assume (many overlook it) that customer has good, fast net connection. That bandwidth doesnt count for him/her as spent resource. However, it still is not the case in many households. So customer might go like: "eh..kinda sounds interesting, but price is so low, must be inferior compared to stuff X. Could download the demo, but I dont want to wait for those 10 megabytes."
Of course, there is always stuff like screenshots etc.

So I still stand to my $15-20 price as the optimal:)

Of course, if you initiate *time limited* discount deal, thats another story. It works because its limited.
Even better - dont give plain discount, but "buy game X and get game Y for half the price" deal. Its a steal as far as customer sees it, but its a great deal for dev as well - he just sold two, instead of one. maybe they'll buy add-on later for both!

If you give discount, make customer "fight" for it. Ask them to fill online survey in exchange giving discount. Customer sees that its not a simple giveaway and in his mind worth of the deal grows. Plus, you'll have just got not only a sold game, but information about the customer. Businesses kill for such info.

#24 PDAmill started "somewhere" and was a big nobody. Thats why everyone scoffed at our ideas to change the industry. So they weren't born with a good reputation, it was work.

Time-limited discounts only work when there is alot of activity. We have massive resources at our disposal, because we helped BUILD THEM. So every game developer knows to inform Pocketgamer.org if there is some kind of deal going on. That site changes daily, traffic is constant, and most people that own a PocketPC know to head there on a daily basis.

Another resource that we helped grow was Pocketmatrix.com . Anybody who is anybody in PocketPC goes there to get the latest poop on ANYTHING. There are massive number of developers that hang out there, combined with a massive number of tech-geeks. Wanna know what kind of Tablet to buy? Go there and, and you'll probably get a response withing a few minutes, if there isn't already a discussion about the subject already in progress. Wanna know whats wrong with Intels PXA250 XScale Processor? Its there.

These mega-empires (okay, mini empires, but in the PocketPC world they are huge) were started by individuals and were very modest in their beginnings, but they grew rapidly once the indie devs started tapping them as a resource. We have a pretty good system going on. No more are we required to deal with crap like Tucows, CNET or Downloads.com to get our stuff out there. PocketGamer and PocketMatrix are still run by individuals, they generate an income to pay for overhead, and are staffed mostly by volunteers. While the rest of the world was hesitant to review independent games, PocketMatrix and PocketGamer picked up the ball and ran. Even to this day, they carry more reviews than any other PocketPC site.

Now, even PocketPC Magazine (US) and PocketPC Magazin (Germany) review indie games and software on a constant basis. Snails has been in both magazines several times, and won awards from them two years in a row. Has anyone here tried to get their indie game reviewed in PCGamer?

I know the mobile industry is substantially different than the PC industry. We saw the opportunity, we grabbed it and ran. We wanted changes, so we did them ourselves. Nothing is going to happen if everyone sits on their ass waiting for someone else to do something first. There are hundreds of millions more PCs (Win, Mac and Linux) than there are PocketPCs, and the PC indie market is largely untapped. I can speculate why this is so (but I won't).

All of this isn't even the tip of the iceberg. There are volumes that could be written on this subject, just from my own experiences, and I am largely ignorant of what REALLY goes on. Which is perfect, because that leaves me more time to do what I want to do. Our Marketing person handles all that other stuff and could probably write 10 times more.

Planet Schnoogie tries to keep things simple, and filter out all the corporate-speak that is typically intimidating. They know you are an Indie, and probably not used to speaking to Fortune 500 companies like they are. They are concerned that you actually understand what is going on, and a few of their clients are from foreign countries.

Even their website reflects a laid-back, non-traditional, non-corporate atmosphere.

I know this makes me sound like a huge Planet Schnoogie fan. But the truth is, I have worked with many marketing people in the past, and they all treated me like a big-fat paycheck, and nothing more. Planet Schnoogie is the ONLY one that respected me and my work. They feel as passionate as I do about my accomplishments, and always put my best interests first. Which is why they remain a small company. You can't retain that kind of passion with a large corporation (its been tried), and you certainly can't hire and train an entire staff to do so.

Basically, their services work for me, so thats who I use. The last thing they want is to become so homogenized that they turn corporate, which is why they strive to retain an identity that is contradictory to their competitors.

#25 Also, I know nothing about the "resource" thing. I see the "submit" link, I see other resources. But somehow, this whole thread doesn't seem to fit in with those. Plus, I am not very organised for these kinds of things.

#26 Well, in terms of the resource thing, a good place to start would be the Industry section of the GG Resources area. There isn't much in there at the moment, and I think something like this would fit nicely.

A title? "Marketing Independent Games - Experiences, Thoughts, Facts and Information"

Sounds a little meaty I'll admit, but I think just the stuff you've told us here would make great reading, if presented in a more 'documented' fashion, rather than being reactions to questions/comments. You've mentioned several facts and figures here, some that are specifically related to your game, it's success story, and positive influences/connections that have made all this possible.

So, it isn't a guide at all - and as you (and the rest of us) probably appreciate, it's difficult to guide with this kind of thing, and people will always disagree. But, you can't argue with successful sales and a proven track record for a game, and even if people disagree they should be reading this stuff, and taking it in. That's why the title says "Experiences, Thoughts ...", rather than "How to sell your Indie game".

I do appreciate though, you're probably quite busy, and writing this kind of document can be difficult. All I'll say is that if you write it, people WILL read it and benefit from it. And I'm sure we could make it prominent by announcing it in a forum thread, and bumping it occasionally :-)

I really do think you have some fantastic info here Randall, and it's a great story even if the reader doesn't agree with the important details!

#27 I just sent Randall an email asking for permission to turn information in this post into a resource. Good stuff!

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#28 Awesome, nice one Jeff! I was hoping either you or Jay would read this thread, and add your own thoughts. These stories are often only unconvered when someone asks a specific question, and it's nice to think the information will be preserved, and won't get buried in the forums.

Thanks to Randall for the info so far, and thanks to Joshua R. for posting the comment that started this discussion off! And thanks to Jeff for catching some inspiring and useful info!

#29 I agree thanks Randall... I will stick by that low cost sell games... I mean another great example where cutting cost could sell a heck of a lot more products, is in the music industry when cds were cheap people would buy them... when cds got spendy people stopped buying them. I mean its human nature to get the best deal possible... We are always saving money and thats why its important that you do the pre-market... as randall said if you test drove the car you would be more opted to buy the product if it was at the cheaper price... well that applies here real well in gaming if you market your product before people buy it... They are more likely to make the choice to buy it at any price... more likely a cheaper price.

This is proven with Veblens theory of the Leisure class... We will often buy things on impulse if we are primed by society to buy them. We buy them because everyone has them and want to be like everyone else... Among this theory is that we will often buy things that are the best economical choice... As i said in my post it may not always be economical for the company... This is why you don't see it often. But, it will almost always be economical for the consumer... especially if you have done a great job in the pre-market.

I go back again to my example of warecraft 3 or even something like The Sims, even though they did not chop prices people where primed to buy these products because of a huge pre-market... as I said warcraft 3 was marketed from day 1... but over all i agree i think all this info should be slammed in some reaource somewhere for all to read... I myself just walked out of a job marketing computer games for some company and i can say its not as easy as some play it out to be, but its also not as hard as we often times play it off to be... logical, practical ideas will often times rule out any doubt when it comes to marketing anything.

#30 Well of course I gave Jeff the okay to turn it into a resource, if anyone can make heads or tales of all this.

I don't know about anyone else' situation, but if I sell a game for a buck, I am still making money. Thats how low my overhead is. All my tools have been paid off by other independent/freelance jobs. Of course, we would be foolish to sell our game for a buck, because we are still in the top ten, and we really can't rise any higher.

If anyone wants a tip: The mobile industry has been begging for a GTA clone since I entered 3 years ago. To this date, nobody has tried. There was a clone for the Amiga, called Payback and screenshots can be seen at www.amigalien.de/payback/hp/shots.htm. Some may notice this looks WAY better than the original GTA, and actually contains 3D cars. There is no reason this couldn't be accomplished on the PocketPC, Palm Tungsten, Zire, MS Smartphone or NGage. We actually have a game engine that could accomplish this, we simply don't have the time to do it (we have far too much waiting in the wings already).

Snails sales are overwhelmingly driven by online purchases. We do have a boxed version, but it rarely sells. Mostly as a collectors item I think, for people that already own the game and want a CD, nice DVD box, and full-color manual. Collectors item? lol, I wish...

Interestingly, I have never seen Snails appear as Warez. I'm sure it has, and mobile software can easily be found on Kazaa (type in PocketPC or Pocket PC and see what comes up). Even the few PocketPC warez channels and sites that we know of, it really doesn't appear. I don't know whether my feelings should be hurt, or what.

#31 Sorry to say this.. but Snails is indeed appearing as warez, in DC++ at least. I really don't get why would you like to see Snails as warez? As the customers who share the game on a p2p network are dishonest and unlegit. Secondly it most likely takes X% off your sales (not much but in general it does affect it in a bad way as there aren't so many testdrivers who download a ware program just because of that, they usually just download the demo version.)

Personally, I am all against warez and I would rather sue people sharing my game (after warning them) than do nothing about it, even if it cost me more than it would be of use to me.

and oh, thanks for putting this great article together. :)

#32 I didn't say Snails wasn't appearing as Warez. Its just not as prominent as other games, nor as easy to find. A hardcore fiend will find it easily, because they know the channels.

I find a hell of alot wrong with your statements. First of all, there isn't a damn thing we do that would MAKE our customers dishonest. Second of all, if they are WAREZING the game, they aren't CUSTOMERS. Third, there is zero evidence that anyone that is warezing our game would ever buy it. Zero. Nada. Nil. So its not taking any money from my sales as far as I am concerned.

Quote:Personally, I am all against warez and I would rather sue people sharing my game (after warning them)

Based off that, I am going to start calling you Lars Ulrich (Metallica). :)

Let me make this PERFECTLY CLEAR: I create games to be PLAYED. This is the singlemost important item on my agenda. Any profits or benefits that are derived from this are pure icing on the cake. I just happen to be extremely lucky that I can have my cake and eat it too. (create games to be played AND make money from it).

As far as Warez goes, that has become a very loosely used word that pretty much encompasses a variety of digital formats, media, data, IP, content and software. I can't say I am completely AGAINST it, but I do not totally embrace nor promote it either.

To quote Star Wars: "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." I think this is very appropriate when pointed at what the RIAA and MPAA are doing. Game Publishers certainly aren't any better. In fact, if you look at actual numbers, you will discover that these organisations are by FAR the worst pirates in the industry, as they rape and pillage talent, IPs and genius. The burning carcasses left behind are the studios that shut down, the unemployed/laid off devs, the brilliant IPs that are dropped because of poor/misguided marketing efforts. All three of these items are the VERY thing that started this thread- to refresh your memory, Black Isle Studios has been shut down and Fallout3 is no more.

#33 Randall's got a good point. By acting like bulls near a china cabinet, the MPAA and RIAA are chasing off customers like myself. I download A LOT of music, for free. Sure its illegal, and I know its wrong. There are a few reasons I do it; there are only one or two good songs on the CD, I would rather hear the music before buying a CD so I don't waste money, there are remixes or versions of songs which are not on CDs, there are songs/CDs that I can't buy in the states, or its much easier and quicker for me to download music rather than ripping it from a CD I already own. I view it a little like test driving a car. But since I know of no place where I can hear an enitre song/album of whatever artist I wish legally, I have to resort to using Kazaa. But let me give you just a few examples of how "pirating" music has benefited the music industry.

Albums I have purchased due to downloading and listening to music:

Gladiator Soundtrack
More Music from Gladiator (Soundtrack)
Enigma's last three albums
Contact Soundtrack
Tomb Raider Soundtrack
All Indiana Jones Soundtracks
Various ATB albums
Two Paul Oakenfold albums
All Star Wars Soundtracks
An Enya and Loreena McKennitt album
The Doors Greatest Hits
A couple bagpipe albums
Several They Might Be Giants albums

I could go on for another 20 or so lines, but I won't. Because of me mentioning groups not heard on stations very much in the states to my friends, they have also bought a good number of CDs. Now I will say that I don't agree with the people who download music because they are just too cheap to buy it (outright theft). That in my opinion is totally wrong. But the music industry has disgusted me so much in the past 2 or 3 years that my music buying habits have dropped sharply, and I have only bought a couple of albums. Before the whole Napster thing started I had about 400 CDs purchased legally, and added another 2-4 CDs to that collection monthly. But anyways, I have a tank to finish.

#34 Here is a link to a great article I've found at International Hobo, a company offering external game design services. The article reiterates what Randall is saying and what I've always believed in many repspects, but states it in terms of a marketing perspective.

I've always believed the more people playing your game, the more it will be played, whether acquired legally or otherwise. Piracy isn't a good thing, but it's a strange (and often) effective form of marketing.

http://www.ihobo.com/forum/articles/mag_piracy.html

#35 Actually, that ihobo article is very good. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'd suggest that the vast majority of Developers need to pull their head out of their ass, and read that article. No, it probably won't change your mind, it won't make your sales skyrocket and it won't make your days sunny. But the VAST majority of developers are stuck in a rut and so worried about losing these supposed sales that NEVER existed in the first place, that they end up alienating the customers that are standing there with cash-in-hand.

I was at Barnes and Noble today. While standing at the Magazine rack, there were no less than 10 people standing there READING articles. I have no idea how many of those people ended up buying the magazine. But if the sheer number of magazines are any indication, I seriously doubt the industry is in any kind of particular trouble.

While wandering through the store, there were numerous people seated in the comfy chairs, READING books as if this was a Public Library. The kids section was saturated with no less than 20 kids reading, playing, etc. Kids books are easily read in a matter of minutes by even the newest reader.

The Public Library has almost any book readily available, some will even seek the book and buy it if its requested. Most Libraries these days carry DVDs, VHS, CDs and audio cassettes.

So under these circumstances, wouldn't it seem the entire literary world would be in an uproar? How does Barnes and Noble survive, if they blatantly INVITE customers to sit comfortably and read? While there are thousands of Libraries in the US alone, that is hardly enough to support the actual PUBLISHING of a book. So the local library purchases a single copy, and makes it available to literally hundreds of people.

This doesn't even dive into how Blockbuster Video actually affects DVD/VHS/Console game sales. Yet I own no less than 100 DVDs, and dozens of PS2, Playstation, and XBox titles. If these can be had for $6 for a week rental (very few games have gameplay that extend beyond 1 week, not counting "replay" value), what is my incentive to BUY and own these? WHY do I own the Indiana Jones Collection on VHS AND DVD?

One word, I think sums it up. Value.

#36 To take it a step further:

I'm an avid move-goer. I just love the theater experience as a whole, right down to the sticky floors (from sodas, kids :-P). However, I bet I've seen an ad from www.respectcoyprights.org twenty of the twenty-five last movies. If you're not familiar with it, each shows a man from "behind the scenes"; one is a stuntman and the other set construction worker. Each procedes to tell us how it's like stealing candy (or whatever), and that movie-downloading won't hurt the directors and actors ("much"), but would really hurt the "little guy".

They're preaching to the choir, here! I've found it so insulting, it's about driven me to just stop watching movies on the big screen and start downloading--just for spite, of all things. I've never even downloaded a commercial movie before.

My second pet-peeve with the ad is that it acts like every movie is a [u]Gone With the Wind[/u]. Where's my guarantee it won't be another [u]Gigli[/u] or [u]Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle[/u]?

If Hollyweird goes broke, it won't be from movie downloading.

-Eric F

#37 Ok eric, don't forget to list some other movies that might cuase Follywood to go bankrupt....Fast and Furious, and all the spinoffs (does Torque ring any bells?).


Oops! Did I post that biased pic?? Ok, I'll make it up to all the ricers out there with this one -

#38 Wow, and I thought I was a bad drawer. Funny though.
I hope this thread doesn't make anyone too pessimistic about game development. If you know the technology, know your capabilities, have great (pretty much got to be freakin' fantastic) ideas and know what peoples likes to play and look at, then you can do well in the industry, indie or commercial. It's not quite all doom and gloom just yet, really. Just means you need to try all that much harder. Go for it.

#39 Bah....I can draw better than that - I drew those in about five minutes when I was bored at work.
A better drawing that was done in aboot 30 minutes for my project. And yes I know "Desert Runner" is a trademark owned by NISSAN JIDOSHA KABUSHIKI KAISHA TA NISSAN MOTOR CO., LTD. CORPORATION JAPAN NO. 2 TAKARACHO KANAGAWA-KU YOKOHAMA-SHI, KANAGAWA-KEN JAPAN (I have one, and it does very well off road when I go PreRunning back home in CA).

#40 Please resize those images so they don't screw up the formatting. They aren't so detailed that they need to be that large. I could get the idea with a 200x200 image... and they would probably even look better.

I am surprised these forums don't have some kind of dimension limitation for images.