The end of 2003 and still nothing really done
by James Brad Barnette · in Torque Game Engine · 11/14/2003 (1:59 pm) · 57 replies
Post removed due to to many missing the point
I will leave the following as a wish list
In order for Torque to be competitive the following must happen:
1: Shaders must be added at the engine level. No wrappers no Nvidia CG there needs to something that works on all cards that support OpenGL. Direct X would be nice but no a must as directX is only aplicable to the windows Platform. By this I'm not asking for the cutting edge Pixel shaders guys I simply talking about the basics illumination masking, Bump Mapping, animated or moving textures, Real mirror-like reflections bisicly the kind of things that have been around since Quake 3 "1999" so don't come at me "no cards support shaders" " there are no games that support shader" anyone with a Gefore256 would be able to play this
2: Exporter tools for more than just one professional app "3dsmax" should be made and maintain by GG no the community. We came to make games not tools!
3: Map editor, This is a big one we need something better thatn a woefully outdate HL editor. something user friendly, should be as easy as UnrealEd to operate.
If these measures were implemented Torque would compete with andything on the market
I will leave the following as a wish list
In order for Torque to be competitive the following must happen:
1: Shaders must be added at the engine level. No wrappers no Nvidia CG there needs to something that works on all cards that support OpenGL. Direct X would be nice but no a must as directX is only aplicable to the windows Platform. By this I'm not asking for the cutting edge Pixel shaders guys I simply talking about the basics illumination masking, Bump Mapping, animated or moving textures, Real mirror-like reflections bisicly the kind of things that have been around since Quake 3 "1999" so don't come at me "no cards support shaders" " there are no games that support shader" anyone with a Gefore256 would be able to play this
2: Exporter tools for more than just one professional app "3dsmax" should be made and maintain by GG no the community. We came to make games not tools!
3: Map editor, This is a big one we need something better thatn a woefully outdate HL editor. something user friendly, should be as easy as UnrealEd to operate.
If these measures were implemented Torque would compete with andything on the market
About the author
#2
11/14/2003 (2:23 pm)
Looks very impressive. is there bump mapping on the cracked ground texture?
#3
11/14/2003 (2:30 pm)
Nice trees to btw. So are you making any of the code that you have done availible back to the community? 
#4
"I fear that by the time any of these are done the Engine is going to be so obsolete that there will be no point in even messing with it." -- Won't happen the way it's going. You have to remember it's up to YOU to make sure the engine doesn't become obsolete and no one else. So if you want features then you implement them your self. Matter of fact I recommend you quit whining and just work on the engine and get it to where you want it to be. Not everyone wants the features you want. For example some want it as light weight as possible so they can support lower end systems instead of just supporting the top of the line systems that practically cost an arm and a leg.
11/14/2003 (2:31 pm)
Why not the community to make their own damn tools? For one GG cannot possibly buy every freakin modelling program you want exporters for. Because YOU have the modelling program you SHOULD be the one developing the exporters for. GarageGames maintaines and developes the engine along with help of the community and it's interns, therefore they've done their part."I fear that by the time any of these are done the Engine is going to be so obsolete that there will be no point in even messing with it." -- Won't happen the way it's going. You have to remember it's up to YOU to make sure the engine doesn't become obsolete and no one else. So if you want features then you implement them your self. Matter of fact I recommend you quit whining and just work on the engine and get it to where you want it to be. Not everyone wants the features you want. For example some want it as light weight as possible so they can support lower end systems instead of just supporting the top of the line systems that practically cost an arm and a leg.
#5
Exporter Tools.
Yes they could be better, but so could some of the process's of tools for other engines.
Remember torque allows you to publish your game with skills you may have, as a commercial product. All thats required is skill.
If however you have the $$ to purchase the unreal engine, and you are familiar with it, and have all your content already done for the Unreal engine and a big publisher waiting, then you wouldnt be posting, so get back to work and try again, put in that extra mile and stop complaining.
11/14/2003 (2:34 pm)
Quote:3: Map editor, This is a big one we need something better thatn a woefully outdate HL editor. something user friendly, should be as easy as UnrealEd to operateHow can you say that the map editor isnt user friendly, as apposed to UnrealEd, and yes i have used it, exstensivly. like all tools you need to learn the TGE map editor, you also have to forget or at least disregard most you have learnt about bsp level/map creation.
Exporter Tools.
Yes they could be better, but so could some of the process's of tools for other engines.
Remember torque allows you to publish your game with skills you may have, as a commercial product. All thats required is skill.
If however you have the $$ to purchase the unreal engine, and you are familiar with it, and have all your content already done for the Unreal engine and a big publisher waiting, then you wouldnt be posting, so get back to work and try again, put in that extra mile and stop complaining.
#6
A: I'm not a programmer otherwise I would have done this by now.
B: Ernest Booth Got a free copy of Maya from Alias. Just to make and Maya exporter. I would think that it would be even easier for a company like GG to get these things from the companies.
C: if you do a search you would find that Shaders are one of the most requested items on the forums. And anyone has done them refuses submit the code back to the source.
D: look at the specs of and AAA title and you will see that if you don't have a radeon or a GF you ain't playing. and more and more people that REALLY are in to games keep their systems upto date. gone of the days when companies make their games accoarding to the lowest common denominator. if the person is to cheap to maintain their system they they are prolly just gonna be stealing you game and playing with a crack anyway!.
You make you game to push the current hardware becasue a year or so later when it comes out there will be somethine way better one the market and you game will fly. Believe it or not many people do buy games base one the flashy graphics "max payne" comes to mind.
not saying that GG shoudl do everything but I do think that the shader thing is definaly they should be doing!!
11/14/2003 (2:43 pm)
Nathan: You logic is good. However :A: I'm not a programmer otherwise I would have done this by now.
B: Ernest Booth Got a free copy of Maya from Alias. Just to make and Maya exporter. I would think that it would be even easier for a company like GG to get these things from the companies.
C: if you do a search you would find that Shaders are one of the most requested items on the forums. And anyone has done them refuses submit the code back to the source.
D: look at the specs of and AAA title and you will see that if you don't have a radeon or a GF you ain't playing. and more and more people that REALLY are in to games keep their systems upto date. gone of the days when companies make their games accoarding to the lowest common denominator. if the person is to cheap to maintain their system they they are prolly just gonna be stealing you game and playing with a crack anyway!.
You make you game to push the current hardware becasue a year or so later when it comes out there will be somethine way better one the market and you game will fly. Believe it or not many people do buy games base one the flashy graphics "max payne" comes to mind.
not saying that GG shoudl do everything but I do think that the shader thing is definaly they should be doing!!
#7
11/14/2003 (2:44 pm)
Was not talking about the TGE editor that is in the engine I'm refering to having to use Hammer 
#8
Sounds like you need to put your application in somewhere... this is an independent game development community...
11/14/2003 (2:55 pm)
"You make you game to push the current hardware becasue a year or so later when it comes out there will be somethine way better one the market and you game will fly. Believe it or not many people do buy games base one the flashy graphics "max payne" comes to mind."Sounds like you need to put your application in somewhere... this is an independent game development community...
#9
11/14/2003 (3:05 pm)
Sorry James i got the wrong end of the stick, but using third party tools and developing the odd one you need yourself is a part of game dev, (personaly i use quark for interiors) i believe there is also a max to map tool somewhere also, but the fact still remains that this ia very different engine, i suspect that dynamix either wrote a max 2 dif for interiors, or used a 3rd party tool, probably the former for Tribes 2, with the initial strip down of the Tribes 2 engine for TGE licensing this would have been probably broken an possibly subject to licensing issues.
#10
How far do you expect your 100 bucks to go? I mean most AAA games are nearly as much as the Torque Engine itself. I think to get the things you want you will need to sell out AAA Developement cash for the engine.
So if you had the things you think GG could do, how much more would you be willing to pay for it? How much for each item? Maybe you could get some Comunity members to make some cash on the side by creating these tools for you.
11/14/2003 (3:12 pm)
James,How far do you expect your 100 bucks to go? I mean most AAA games are nearly as much as the Torque Engine itself. I think to get the things you want you will need to sell out AAA Developement cash for the engine.
So if you had the things you think GG could do, how much more would you be willing to pay for it? How much for each item? Maybe you could get some Comunity members to make some cash on the side by creating these tools for you.
#11
and Joshua What is the deal with people like you that think that just casue you are an indy that our gaems should not be on par with AAA titles. I have run into this attitude numerouse times in this community. I don't understand this. there is a group in this community that thinks that all of us are broke or that we should be willing to just do the bare minimum. I think that anything worth doing is worth doing well. I personaly don't do anything that I'm not willing to put my best effort into! I personly own 2 successful companies and am not broke.
Dan: $100x thousands of licenses = big stack O cash! more than enough to fund implementing some of these things. and if not raise the price of the engine. $100 was to low anyway should have been about $300-500. And, $100 a game??? where the hell are you buying your games man? Hey I have some Swamp land eh um I mean resort property I can sell ya!
11/14/2003 (3:35 pm)
If all of the items were included and vigerously supported I would have no problem with paying a $1000 or so for the engine. But relying on the community to handle this thus far has resulted in many starts with zero follow thru. and it not like there has not been finacial incentive for these projects if you read thru the forums there are plenty of people willing to pay $100 or so for these things. finaly someone tackles it but then dissapears from the community. and Joshua What is the deal with people like you that think that just casue you are an indy that our gaems should not be on par with AAA titles. I have run into this attitude numerouse times in this community. I don't understand this. there is a group in this community that thinks that all of us are broke or that we should be willing to just do the bare minimum. I think that anything worth doing is worth doing well. I personaly don't do anything that I'm not willing to put my best effort into! I personly own 2 successful companies and am not broke.
Dan: $100x thousands of licenses = big stack O cash! more than enough to fund implementing some of these things. and if not raise the price of the engine. $100 was to low anyway should have been about $300-500. And, $100 a game??? where the hell are you buying your games man? Hey I have some Swamp land eh um I mean resort property I can sell ya!
#12
11/14/2003 (3:42 pm)
I meant that you have to work more as an independent... not less... You also have to be realistic about what you can/cannot do... Throwing around the term AAA doesn't do anything for me...
#13
Get all these people together, get a fund going, and subcontract all these things you want out. You can then either keep the tools you contracted out or give them away.
There are people willing to do the work, but this kind of work gets in the way or making games. The talent is here to make the additions, the funding is necessary to make it possible.
No intention of arguing with you, but these things seem to stand in the way of you making games.. not the people that are shipping them.
edit:spelling
11/14/2003 (3:52 pm)
Quote:I would have no problem with paying a $1000 or so for the engine
Quote:there are plenty of people willing to pay $100 or so for these things.
Get all these people together, get a fund going, and subcontract all these things you want out. You can then either keep the tools you contracted out or give them away.
There are people willing to do the work, but this kind of work gets in the way or making games. The talent is here to make the additions, the funding is necessary to make it possible.
No intention of arguing with you, but these things seem to stand in the way of you making games.. not the people that are shipping them.
edit:spelling
#14
I didn't say 100 bucks for a game. I said nearly. Most AAA title games sell for 50-70 bucks when they first come out. To me that nearly. No need to get snippy.
-- corrected mispeeeelliiinnggsss --
11/14/2003 (3:55 pm)
James,I didn't say 100 bucks for a game. I said nearly. Most AAA title games sell for 50-70 bucks when they first come out. To me that nearly. No need to get snippy.
-- corrected mispeeeelliiinnggsss --
#15
If they are shipping, please give me the price.
We have been over and over this shader argument. At some point, you will see our response. In the meantime, Torque is a great engine as evidenced by the shipping games and our demo.
We are not going to fix doors. They are too specific to a certain type of product. If you need doors for your product, fix them. If you have a great game that can't ship because doors are holding you up, we will help you get them working.
We provide 3DS Max exporter and Milkshape exporter. We have never stated there would be support for Maya. However, the professional modeler market in Maya has exploded, plus it is available on the Mac, so we are looking into official support.
Torque will never be easy enough for a non-progarmmer to make a game.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
11/14/2003 (5:05 pm)
Just for my own edification, I would like to see the list of engines shipping that support shaders in a meaningful manner. I don't mean some scabbed in water shader. Also, make sure these engines are shipping. Not announced or in screenshot mode or PR hype mode. I want shipping engines that have shipping, commercial games.If they are shipping, please give me the price.
We have been over and over this shader argument. At some point, you will see our response. In the meantime, Torque is a great engine as evidenced by the shipping games and our demo.
We are not going to fix doors. They are too specific to a certain type of product. If you need doors for your product, fix them. If you have a great game that can't ship because doors are holding you up, we will help you get them working.
We provide 3DS Max exporter and Milkshape exporter. We have never stated there would be support for Maya. However, the professional modeler market in Maya has exploded, plus it is available on the Mac, so we are looking into official support.
Torque will never be easy enough for a non-progarmmer to make a game.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
#16
It's harder to remove something you don't want then to add something you do want.
The more extra things added to the engine the more bloated and harder to work with it will become.
11/14/2003 (5:23 pm)
I can sum up the biggest reason not to add every "golly gee whiz that's neat" resource posted here and shaders, etc. in one simple phrase.It's harder to remove something you don't want then to add something you do want.
The more extra things added to the engine the more bloated and harder to work with it will become.
#17
QuakeIII has a really nice, efficient, powerful, compatible, and documented shader specification (1999 technology)... Quake III is very spendy and not as flexible as Torque... but this isn't the point... It would be great to have more control over the rendered surfaces in Torque than a texture/light map...
Do I expect this from anyone? No.
11/14/2003 (5:59 pm)
There are shaders and then there are shaders... I don't have much use right now for Pixel Shaders (aka) "Complicated Performance Hogging Compatibility Problem".QuakeIII has a really nice, efficient, powerful, compatible, and documented shader specification (1999 technology)... Quake III is very spendy and not as flexible as Torque... but this isn't the point... It would be great to have more control over the rendered surfaces in Torque than a texture/light map...
Do I expect this from anyone? No.
#18
as for what engines support shaders? are you serious? what game in the last year or so doesn't I mean at least in some form
MAX FX "maypayne"
current Unreal Engine
Quake 3 engine had shaders and MANY GAMES USED IT
Halo
Black Hawk Down
Lithtech Engine I think tron2.0 uses it
I know there are more that I can't think of but they are out there
not to mention the new Doom III Engine that will also be used for Quake 4. and let us not forget the ever delayed Half-Life 2
I don't know why yall act like no engine is using shaders hell Quake3 is what like 4 years old now and it had a very simple easy to use shader system
11/14/2003 (6:07 pm)
Jeff that is great to hear!!! I hope some Maya support is added that would be awesome BTW Maya is also on Linux!!!!as for what engines support shaders? are you serious? what game in the last year or so doesn't I mean at least in some form
MAX FX "maypayne"
current Unreal Engine
Quake 3 engine had shaders and MANY GAMES USED IT
Halo
Black Hawk Down
Lithtech Engine I think tron2.0 uses it
I know there are more that I can't think of but they are out there
not to mention the new Doom III Engine that will also be used for Quake 4. and let us not forget the ever delayed Half-Life 2
I don't know why yall act like no engine is using shaders hell Quake3 is what like 4 years old now and it had a very simple easy to use shader system
#19
11/14/2003 (6:18 pm)
Also every game on that list sells for $49.99 or less
#20
Remember, we're talking about ENGINES not the games written with them.
11/14/2003 (6:21 pm)
OK.. now how much does it cost to license each of those Engines.Remember, we're talking about ENGINES not the games written with them.
Torque 3D Owner Eric Forhan
-Eric F