Video Card Driver Problems
by Josh Welber · in General Discussion · 11/10/2003 (1:37 pm) · 21 replies
Hey All. We here at Large Animal are working on getting our first Torque game out the door. During Beta Testing we have gotten reports of problems with certain drivers on ATI video cards.
The problem is that they report to the game that they support openGL, but in fact they do not (or do so *really* badly). The result is a gray screen. This happens mostly on machines that have the default drivers that shipped with the computer on XP (usually 2002 drivers). For example, 128 DDR ATI Radeon 9700 cards drivers suffer from this problem.
Does anyone out there have ideas about how to detect these problem conditions, short of making a list of drivers/card combos that are known to cause problems? Ideally, we would want to detect the problem, try switching to DX8, and if the same problem happens there then inform the user that they should update there drivers. Thoughts anyone?
The problem is that they report to the game that they support openGL, but in fact they do not (or do so *really* badly). The result is a gray screen. This happens mostly on machines that have the default drivers that shipped with the computer on XP (usually 2002 drivers). For example, 128 DDR ATI Radeon 9700 cards drivers suffer from this problem.
Does anyone out there have ideas about how to detect these problem conditions, short of making a list of drivers/card combos that are known to cause problems? Ideally, we would want to detect the problem, try switching to DX8, and if the same problem happens there then inform the user that they should update there drivers. Thoughts anyone?
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#2
11/10/2003 (1:45 pm)
Badguy -- thanks, that is true but we are trying to come up with a solution that does not require exhaustive lists of driver/card combos that cause problems. Of course, if someone has such a list it would be a great resource. Any other ideas out there?
#4
this is a temporary driver problem.
Im sure checking the revision against a minimum would suffice for this, as well of course if you like..
you can always trash the user if you find crappy hardware.
11/10/2003 (3:26 pm)
Mark .. Too risky.this is a temporary driver problem.
Im sure checking the revision against a minimum would suffice for this, as well of course if you like..
you can always trash the user if you find crappy hardware.
#5
But if you don't want to do card profiles, you're going to have to do something along the lines that Mark describes...
Neither way is going to fix every problem, sadly. :(
11/10/2003 (3:29 pm)
I think that a cardprofile solution would be best (I think that GG is already doing work in this area; have you talked to them about it?). I know Orbz and TT use that system...But if you don't want to do card profiles, you're going to have to do something along the lines that Mark describes...
Neither way is going to fix every problem, sadly. :(
#6
I have been in contact with GG, but the magic list of problem cards was not mentioned. If your out there Tim/Jeff/others -- does such a list exist?
11/10/2003 (3:42 pm)
Ben, et al. Thanks for the ideas. I guess we are leaning towards the profile solution. Still have reservations though -- besides being lazy cusses-- I would worry a little about false negatives. That is, we think the driver/card combo wont work, but it will. I guess we could have a warning panel that shows up before the game starts if we detect any of the trouble cards that would let the user switch to dx8 or download new drivers or 'take a chance' that their drivers will work. I have been in contact with GG, but the magic list of problem cards was not mentioned. If your out there Tim/Jeff/others -- does such a list exist?
#7
11/10/2003 (4:10 pm)
Ah ha -- I see there is a profiles.cs included with orbz. that's a start.
#8
11/10/2003 (4:28 pm)
Well, worst case is that they run in the wrong mode (d3d as opposed to OGL)... 99% percent of the time it won't matter to them, though. I do think that the popup is a good idea.
#9
first of all there are very few gl cards that suffer from this.
one group being the ati set.
the other being super old nvidia.
anything else doesnt really fall under the problem..
so why wouldnt you think driver revision a solution?
and checking the framebuffer is better?
that is just insane.
the framebuffer you propose always gives the grey?
so you are gonna bit test for grey?
that dont sound like much of a solution.
11/10/2003 (4:36 pm)
I Dont get it ben...first of all there are very few gl cards that suffer from this.
one group being the ati set.
the other being super old nvidia.
anything else doesnt really fall under the problem..
so why wouldnt you think driver revision a solution?
and checking the framebuffer is better?
that is just insane.
the framebuffer you propose always gives the grey?
so you are gonna bit test for grey?
that dont sound like much of a solution.
#10
I also think that doing card/driver version profiling is the best thing in this case... But if they want to do the framebuffer way, that's their business, not mine... :)
(Literally, if it doesn't work and they lose sales, or if it works and they gain them... ;)
11/10/2003 (6:34 pm)
Badguy - no, I was replying to "That is, we think the driver/card combo wont work, but it will"... I also think that doing card/driver version profiling is the best thing in this case... But if they want to do the framebuffer way, that's their business, not mine... :)
(Literally, if it doesn't work and they lose sales, or if it works and they gain them... ;)
#11
11/11/2003 (4:52 am)
Working with the profiles solution, does anyone know if the ATI cards/drivers in question (e.g. Radeon 9700 with 2002 winXP drivers) support DX8 correctly -- or are they also giving bogus answers for DX8 like the are for openGL. That is, if we have this profile list, would it be sufficient in most (all cases) to have the game render with DX by default on these cards? Or, are there cards that act like they support both API's but actually support neither.
#12
From what I've heard (I run updated drivers myself) Direct3D is just as buggy with stock drivers as OpenGL, but some of the bugs are in different graphics functions.
11/11/2003 (5:49 am)
What do you mean, 'bogus answers' IIRC, those boards really do support OpenGL and lots of extensions - it's just that the drivers Microsoft shipped with XP are bug ridden and need to be updated.From what I've heard (I run updated drivers myself) Direct3D is just as buggy with stock drivers as OpenGL, but some of the bugs are in different graphics functions.
#13
11/11/2003 (6:00 am)
Mark - right, I recognize that the problem is with the drivers. I am speaking from the perspective of Torque application. What I mean is, when Torque asks if the card/driver combo supports openGL it gets a 'bogus' answer -- the card/driver says yes, but then the 'card/driver' fails to deliver actual support. So, to put it another way: does anyone know if the 'card/driver' combos for WinXP/ATI cards (or others) will say it supports DirectX but then fail in its implementation (in the way openGL fails)? If this is true, then it is not safe to simply switch to DX renderer when we see these cards, we would need to inform the user that they need to update their drivers. thoughts.
#14
It's better for you, 'cause your game looks better.
It's better for them, 'cause they don't need that buggy garbage running on their PC.
11/11/2003 (6:20 am)
You should really just advise your users to update their drivers. The newer drivers are going to run your game faster and with less crashes wether it be under OpenGL or Direct3d.It's better for you, 'cause your game looks better.
It's better for them, 'cause they don't need that buggy garbage running on their PC.
#15
The adapter was an ATI Rage Pro Lite in a Dell Inspiron 7000 P-II Laptop. When I went to the ATI site and searched the FAQ, ATI acknowledged that the XP driver that they had provided to Microsoft did not support OpenGL, and that there were no plans to provide an updated driver. It does run DirectX.
Since they don't plan on updating the driver, well, you can't expect users to find one for this particular adapter. You would have to tell them to replace their computer (or adapter), and I think that they might be inclined to return your game instead.
Would there be anything wrong with always bootstraping the game under DirectX on any Windows XP system, and giving the user a choice to try OpenGL through your options dialog?
11/11/2003 (8:15 am)
Hi Josh, how's it going? I haven't made it to New York yet, but I'm halfway there... I live in Texas now. Anyway, Good to see Large Animal is ramping up for a release. Regarding the Windows XP and OpenGL display driver issues you are having, I had the same issue come up when testing a Torque game. I found some information that might be good to know. The adapter was an ATI Rage Pro Lite in a Dell Inspiron 7000 P-II Laptop. When I went to the ATI site and searched the FAQ, ATI acknowledged that the XP driver that they had provided to Microsoft did not support OpenGL, and that there were no plans to provide an updated driver. It does run DirectX.
Since they don't plan on updating the driver, well, you can't expect users to find one for this particular adapter. You would have to tell them to replace their computer (or adapter), and I think that they might be inclined to return your game instead.
Would there be anything wrong with always bootstraping the game under DirectX on any Windows XP system, and giving the user a choice to try OpenGL through your options dialog?
#16
One issue that effects these decisions is the target audience for the game, which is not necessarily the most computer savvy audience and may be scared off by being told they need to update their drivers before playing.
On another note: we have noticed that several configurations of machine/driver/card actually run pretty badly in direct X full screen, but run quite well with DX in a window. Have others noticed this. The problems usually take the form of a kind of shearing/flashing that happens, not a low FPS.
11/11/2003 (8:25 am)
Robert, hi yourself. Good point about the Rage Pro Lite. Seems like there will be a set of cards that we know have better drivers (like the 9700) and then a set (like the Rage lite) that do not. I am beginning to think that we should go into Direct X with machinces/drivers we know are trouble, then have a couple of warning messages. One indicating drivers are available, and another indicating they are not.One issue that effects these decisions is the target audience for the game, which is not necessarily the most computer savvy audience and may be scared off by being told they need to update their drivers before playing.
On another note: we have noticed that several configurations of machine/driver/card actually run pretty badly in direct X full screen, but run quite well with DX in a window. Have others noticed this. The problems usually take the form of a kind of shearing/flashing that happens, not a low FPS.
#17
11/11/2003 (8:26 am)
Isn't Torque's DirectX just a wrapper for an OpenGL core?
#18
11/11/2003 (8:59 am)
Other way 'round. The DirectX support is an openGL - like wrapper around Direct3D.
#19
So, essentially Torque is an OpenGL-based app. and the wrapper allows DirectX to do the functions that OGL normally would?
Also, I agree it makes more sense to make the user update their drivers (when possible). Perhaps a lot just don't realize then need to?
11/11/2003 (9:20 am)
Ahh, ok.So, essentially Torque is an OpenGL-based app. and the wrapper allows DirectX to do the functions that OGL normally would?
Also, I agree it makes more sense to make the user update their drivers (when possible). Perhaps a lot just don't realize then need to?
#20
Just put it in the known video card problems and say update!
11/14/2003 (5:39 am)
Lots of games always say that you need your lastest drivers, so I don't think it should come as a surprize.Just put it in the known video card problems and say update!
Torque Owner Badguy
previous to running the application.