Updating DTS exporter / Communtity proposal
by Matthew Jones · in Torque Game Engine · 10/18/2003 (11:57 am) · 16 replies
Here recently I have been discussing the possibilities, with other developers ,of getting the max 2dts exporter up to date with MAX5 and now MAX6 (shipped Thursday). This would be a great help for our community as well as give us the opportunity to not only get new features but produce with the most efficient tools available.
Garage Games tends to advocate the use and/or development of open source tools and I don't blame them they are looking for the cheap alternative to game development that would allow anybody to be competitive. With this I feel it is the communities responsibility to keep the existing tools alive and kicking.
As a MAX user and owner of TGE I feel it is my responsibility to keep my tools and art pipeline up to date as I see fit. But I lack the skills to do so.
The only solution I can see to get a reliable and up to date source for exporting media out of MAX is to pay a programmer or group of programmers to undertake the task. Why would they consider doing it for free when I would defiantly charge them for my services?
This where a sponsorship solution can come in handy for all of us artists and development teams.
Everybody familiar with sponsoring kids on a walk for charity. The total walk is 10 miles and you would give them a dollar for every mile. If they go 6 miles you give them 6 dollars ect ect....
I am proposing we do this to some extent with our tools. If each artist or team could donate $5 or $100 or whatever your pocket allows to a fund that would eventually pay the programmer's who can successfully achieve what we need out the tools.
So if ten programmers take on the task separately how do we determine who gets paid?
We would do this before hand by asking them to submit proposals for review or the project at hand. The chosen group would then enter into contract with a back up group as well (or something along those lines)
Well before we start the project we need several thing.
1. A summery of what needs done
2. Clear plan of action
3. means to pool the money together and deliver
4. a clear cut way of deciding the best plan proposed.
5. Delivery agreements
So i hope this explains my idea clear enough. Now what I am wondering is what others think. Programmers artists and developer or anybody for that matter. I am hoping GG will weight in on this as well. We'll defiantly need their help to get the thing up an running. I would also like suggestions for development as long as they are feasible and estimates of money's that could be contributed, If any at all.
Please comment on the subject. We all stand to gain from it
Matt
Garage Games tends to advocate the use and/or development of open source tools and I don't blame them they are looking for the cheap alternative to game development that would allow anybody to be competitive. With this I feel it is the communities responsibility to keep the existing tools alive and kicking.
As a MAX user and owner of TGE I feel it is my responsibility to keep my tools and art pipeline up to date as I see fit. But I lack the skills to do so.
The only solution I can see to get a reliable and up to date source for exporting media out of MAX is to pay a programmer or group of programmers to undertake the task. Why would they consider doing it for free when I would defiantly charge them for my services?
This where a sponsorship solution can come in handy for all of us artists and development teams.
Everybody familiar with sponsoring kids on a walk for charity. The total walk is 10 miles and you would give them a dollar for every mile. If they go 6 miles you give them 6 dollars ect ect....
I am proposing we do this to some extent with our tools. If each artist or team could donate $5 or $100 or whatever your pocket allows to a fund that would eventually pay the programmer's who can successfully achieve what we need out the tools.
So if ten programmers take on the task separately how do we determine who gets paid?
We would do this before hand by asking them to submit proposals for review or the project at hand. The chosen group would then enter into contract with a back up group as well (or something along those lines)
Well before we start the project we need several thing.
1. A summery of what needs done
2. Clear plan of action
3. means to pool the money together and deliver
4. a clear cut way of deciding the best plan proposed.
5. Delivery agreements
So i hope this explains my idea clear enough. Now what I am wondering is what others think. Programmers artists and developer or anybody for that matter. I am hoping GG will weight in on this as well. We'll defiantly need their help to get the thing up an running. I would also like suggestions for development as long as they are feasible and estimates of money's that could be contributed, If any at all.
Please comment on the subject. We all stand to gain from it
Matt
#2
10/19/2003 (6:44 am)
I would also like to see an update for the max2dts exporter
#3
10/19/2003 (7:10 am)
And a max2dif exporter too ;)
#4
We could do it for any of the tools even develpment of new ones.
Matt
10/19/2003 (7:42 am)
Well we don't need to sell it just pay the person's that update the code. Then add it to the Head version for everyone.We could do it for any of the tools even develpment of new ones.
Matt
#5
Rex
10/21/2003 (6:06 pm)
I think this is the most logical solution to many developers' needs, well spoken, Matthew. I hope this idea can continue to grow in interest and find it's necessary scribe(I don't think/hope funding proving troublematic). I am definitely interested in a portal for models into this engine.Rex
#7
I am just looking for a way to get tools that don't need to be jury rigged to run and can run on any level of the platform. with all the features intact. Heck maybe get the code commented and sorted out a little better for new programmers.
If your happy great, ignore the post. But I am not and I am more than ready to put some money into this delima. Anybody else??
And don't narrow this idea to just tools. If we could make it work at all maybe we could get tools and features outa somthing like this.
Matt
10/21/2003 (7:31 pm)
Ron do to lack of information on your part I am just guessing but your probably running the MAX4 multires with the MAX4dts. WHy should you have to. MAX6 is out mine came today. The code for it has been rewrote from the ground up. DTSexporter still works but the MAX4 multires does not. The skin modifier has also been rewrote and modified. I would like to be able to use the latest version for its efficency. Thats what I mean by Up-to-Date.I am just looking for a way to get tools that don't need to be jury rigged to run and can run on any level of the platform. with all the features intact. Heck maybe get the code commented and sorted out a little better for new programmers.
If your happy great, ignore the post. But I am not and I am more than ready to put some money into this delima. Anybody else??
And don't narrow this idea to just tools. If we could make it work at all maybe we could get tools and features outa somthing like this.
Matt
#8
I suspect that we will probably see this as time goes on as teams that can go to Max R6 can (ie. those teams that are no in mid-production).
10/21/2003 (8:59 pm)
I too would like to see an update for the exporter, but unfortunately the simple fact of the matter is that it will take a production environment to really "influence" someone with programming to update the code give us a production quality plugin that works flawlessly (ie. like Clark Fagot at Bravetree did for the R4 exporter).I suspect that we will probably see this as time goes on as teams that can go to Max R6 can (ie. those teams that are no in mid-production).
#9
10/22/2003 (11:35 am)
I would like to see some progress made on the Milkshape exporter, personally, since there's a lot of essential functionality missing for it. I have been looking over it lately, and I think a weekend dedicated to it might add something. My trouble is understanding the DTS format and how it deals with LOD and the like. Another big problem is coming up with a way to represent detail levels in torque. Grouping would work, but the problem with grouping is once you assign something to a group, all names are erased. That means when I group "leg" and "torso" together, they become "Regroup01." This is not a big huge deal for the exporter as it stands, but it makes it difficult to adjust things after you prepare for an export. I suppose any kind of support for LOD would be welcome, however difficult it may be to use. If anyone has any ideas for how to represent LOD in milkshape, I just might be able to figure out how to make the exporter work with them... but it will probably take some time (school, work, girlfriend to juggle aside from the game). I imagine the GarageGames folk will eventually work on it, but I will be needing it before February at the latest next year. So I suppose that means I should take it on if I want it done. I'm done talking to myself now.
#10
What I am proposing could get that taken care of as well. If there were a little financial reward at the end you might find more time or more people inerested in completing the project.
I would contibute even though I don't need to use milkshape! Doesn't look like anybody is grasping the full idea of it though. They are to stuck on the fact I used the DTS exporter as an example of what needs to get done. Not the fact that if we raise a few buck we could probably get anything we wanted added to the engine.
Matt
10/22/2003 (1:23 pm)
LOL Don't worry alot of are just talking to ourselves around here!What I am proposing could get that taken care of as well. If there were a little financial reward at the end you might find more time or more people inerested in completing the project.
I would contibute even though I don't need to use milkshape! Doesn't look like anybody is grasping the full idea of it though. They are to stuck on the fact I used the DTS exporter as an example of what needs to get done. Not the fact that if we raise a few buck we could probably get anything we wanted added to the engine.
Matt
#11
10/22/2003 (2:37 pm)
Maybe a good step would be to setup a poll of who would pay $5 to have such and such a feature added. Not request features, but pick a feature that seems needed, then find someone who is willing/able to work on that feature (optional step), then post a poll of who would be willing to pay $5 to have the feature worked on. Maybe it would be good to start at who would be willing to pay $10... Now that I've read your post again, this is really basically your idea. The hard thing with this is being able to trust that other people will pay. And that when the people pay, the person commissioned to do the work will actually get the job done. Perhaps some sort of intermediary person would take the money (someone we can all trust), then once the job is done they can give it to the programmer. If the programmer fails, the intermediary returns the money to the contributors. Paypal can be a good method of money transfer... I can't really think of a better way that's realistic over the net. Anyway, that's my rambling thought. Do what you will with it.
#12
The small things like who holds the money and who makes the decisions can be worked out, but more people have to say "I would contribute" before it could even go that far.
Just another pipe dream I guess.
Matt
10/22/2003 (4:18 pm)
Thats basically why I started this post. To see if anybody would contribute. I basically thought you should be able contribute what you can or want to then the money sits in fund until the work is done. upon approval the money released to whoever finished the work. Every TGE owner can get the code at that point or update the head or whatever. SimpleThe small things like who holds the money and who makes the decisions can be worked out, but more people have to say "I would contribute" before it could even go that far.
Just another pipe dream I guess.
Matt
#13
10/22/2003 (5:22 pm)
Well, I for one am not interested in updating the MAX exporter, since I (and quite a few others, I'm sure) do not own MAX, and many who do probably got it through "non-standard" channels, so probably would not want to pay much for anything (that's my opinion). I _am_ interested in the Milkshape exporter, and would be willing to contriibute $10 to the cause this very second. There are many other things that I would like to see done as well, and I would pay on average $10 for those things too. I am a college student, therefore I have no money, so I don't wanna hear anyone's excuses about not having any money :)
#14
10/22/2003 (5:32 pm)
There ya go! 
#15
I'd contribute either 2D graphics, concept art or models to a development team as part of a contribution package to get a group of programmers to finally implement bumpmapping for in-game models.
GG could devote a section of their forum to artists and programmers who sign up for a per-item basis of trade. I'd be the first to sign on for that.
10/22/2003 (6:04 pm)
Why not set up a simple barter system and bypass the issue of money altogether. Since the majority of developers here at GG don't have money it seems to me a profit motive would throw a wrench into the works, meaning you might collect a stipend amount to convince a programmer to do this work. But wouldn't a service-for-service trade be more balanced?I'd contribute either 2D graphics, concept art or models to a development team as part of a contribution package to get a group of programmers to finally implement bumpmapping for in-game models.
GG could devote a section of their forum to artists and programmers who sign up for a per-item basis of trade. I'd be the first to sign on for that.
#16
10/22/2003 (6:10 pm)
Thats been tried. CASH TALKS! 
Torque Owner Andrea Magini