Gmax support for Torque??

#1 There's a program that will change a gmax into a .3ds, then you could use Milkshape to import it into Torque. I can't recall the name of that program since I've purchased 3ds max and don't need it anymore. I found it at a flight sim site that converted gmax into planes for different flight sims, and converting to .3ds was the middle step.

#2 A google search turned up this information:

"To use Gmax, one must also install the "Tempest" module, export in .MD3 format, then convert the .MD3 model to a .3ds with Deep Exploration."

(Note: You could skip the conversion to .3ds as milkshape supports .MD3 files)

If you do go with this method I would suggest you spend the time to learn modeling with Milkshape as it would be easier to work with one tool vs. creating the model in another tool, converting to a new file format and, importing and then exporting to yet another format.

#3 Despite this method being possible, it's against the license agreement for GMax anyway. May as well pirate Max, i's on the same moral ground.

It's a dire shame they charge so much money to license GMax, it would be an awesome tool for torque :(

#4 I dunno about moral, but it's definitely on the same legal ground and that's what counts if you're making a game.

#5 I don't know about that, I just re-read the GMax EULA and there are a lot of restrictions on the use of the program itself (as in who can use it, how many people can use a single copy, etc)but nothing at all about what you can or can't do with the models you make with GMax.

#6 Ok, I wanted to make sure I didn't put my foot in my mouth so I did a little more checking up on the use of GMax. One of the moderators at Turbosquid contacted discreet and one of their reps referred him to the following links in his response:

http://www.gmaxsupport.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000480

http://www.gmaxsupport.com/forum/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000906

Basically, the posts at the GMax support forums say you can do whatever you want with the models you make and the commercial license is only needed if you want to create a "Game Pack" to distribute allowing end users to create content for your game.

For what it's worth I hope that helps clear things up a bit :)

Edit: But wait, there's more... ;) The problem lies in some of the game packs themsleves. For example, the "Tempest" module has a license that says it may be used solely for testing and providing feedback to discreet. So you will very likely end up violating some other license if not the actual GMax license.

#7 I wonder how much the game pack license is? I had thought it was $10,000 but I saw in a forum @ gmaxsupport.com that it was $85k?

If it is the former, I bet we could do a 'Blender-esque' attempt at getting the license for TGE. If the latter, however, then unlikely. ;-)

-EricF

#8 $85k is less than it used to cost, i'm sure the figure was more like $300k. Not quite sure on the value for money there.

Seems Alias (Maya) were a lot more interested in helping us than discreet ever was.

#9 Actually Eric is correct with his figure of $10,000 and that covers the liscese to distribute the gMax module.

To use and develop with gMax for your team costs you nothing more than 1 liscense of 3DS Max (which gives you access to the full SDK and documentation how to create with gMax). You can also download additional gMax information from Sparks.Discreet.com.

As for companies ponying up and giving free tools for Indies I think there are a few things that people need to remember here...
1) The grass is not always greener on the other side.
2) Nothing is ever truely free.
3) Trading one devil for another still leaves you with a devil at the end of the day.
4) You need to remember that the majority of us are inexperianced people who have not prooven ourselves to anyone here in this Industry. As such you cannot expect companies to jump all over us. The days of free wheeling and dealing are long gone, today each of these companies that developers these outstanding 3D programs that we use is under incredible financial constraints with most of them losing tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

Logan

#10 Of course if they release a game pack for Tribes 2 we'd all be set :)

I wouldn't expect to see that one anytime in the near future though and if by some miracle it did appear it would probably have one hell of a restrictive license considering the fact that it would be useable by any game made with Torque in addition to Tribes 2 itself.

#11 Thanks Logan, very useful information. Has it always been that price or did it change more recently? The 1 copy of Max for a studio via GMax is a darn fine idea.

... sooo if we could raise $10,000 then any torque user could use GMax for their models? That actually seems very possible.

Just my comments on 4). The high risks lead to the high payoffs.

#12 Gareth, it changed at GDC 02 I believe. It's just unfortunate that this announcement was rather quiet because a lot of studios would probably appreciate this information.

As for raising 10k, maybe we can pass a collection plate around at IGC? :)

#13 We could do an auction --textures, models, programming help. And if that fails, a bake sale. ;-)

I think it could work, but it would likely require some groundwork done first. Like: Would Discrete be ok with licensing GMAX for an engine, rather than a title? And, if they will, does Garage Games even want it?

One would think from the docs that it would be easy to port over the current 3DSmax plug-in.

-EricF

#14 OK, how about this?

I brought Microsoft Flight Simulator 2002 and I specifically brought the professional version because it came with GMAX and only cost an additional $20 or so. This means that Microsoft have purchased the GMAX distribution license and are passing the cost on to users who wish to create their own models for FS2002. They also provide the FS2002 game pack which is nothing more than a small utility that allows you to export GMAX models into FS2002.

Now this leaves me with a legitimate, paid for, version of GMAX with no restriction on what I choose to do with the models I create. I have also searched high and low, yet can find absolutely no license agreement for the MakeMDL.exe utility that Microsoft provide for exporting to the FS2002 MDL format. (If there is such a license I would love to hear about it!)

OK so now if I choose to write my own conversion utility from Microsoft's FS2002 MDL format into a format supported by the Torque engine, what license have I violated?

I'd be interested to hear some opinions on this, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing some obscure license clause somewhere in Flight Simulator but I'm damned if I can find it!

#15 The game packs are more than just exporters, they also contain which tools and specific UIs that modify what you get within gMax in order to do the work that you want to do. These tools are specifically configured for that particular product and as such they likely will not work exactly the way that you would want it to.

I am not certain about the legal ramifications of using the application in this way, it's up to you to check, but remember that TGE needs a lot of additional data and making a converter is much easier said than done.

#16 Just a note GMAX can be downloaded seperately (stand alone) without Tempest or any other game pack. I have done that myself and it just requires an email registration. As for conversion of gmax and p3d files it seems ppl are using a m3d exporter then converting it in Milshape 3D as stated above I doubt it's "LEGAL?". But I also noticed on a GMAX tools web page here (obviously hoted on gmax support site)- http://www.dsmith.gmaxsupport.com/Essential_Tools.htm - That there is an exporter avail available for the Genesis3D Engine which is open source, and the download for the exporter comes directly from GMAX support site.... go figure. So my asumtion is if they alow an exporter for an open source game engine wouldn't they alow one for Tourque? I guess we should just email them and ask huh? 8^) Then our answer would be 100%. I love GMAX and would love to see it able to support Torque format exporting.

JB

#17 Just a note GMAX can be downloaded seperately (stand alone) without Tempest or any other game pack. I have done that myself and it just requires an email registration. As for conversion of gmax and p3d files it seems ppl are using a m3d exporter then converting it in Milshape 3D as stated above I doubt it's "LEGAL?" but is is suggested by a GMAX employee web site? ODD. But I also noticed on a GMAX tools web page here (obviously hosted on gmax's support sub site)- http://www.dsmith.gmaxsupport.com/Essential_Tools.htm - That there is an exporter avail available for the Genesis3D Engine which is open source, and the download for the exporter comes directly from GMAX support site.... go figure. So my asumtion is if they alow an exporter for an open source game engine wouldn't they alow one for Tourque? I guess we should just email them and ask huh? 8^) Then our answer would be 100%. I love GMAX and would love to see it able to support Torque/Milkshape format exporting.

JB

#18 Sorry for the double post.

#19 Heh cool. Would be nice to have a decent art path to torque. It's the one thing stopping us from using torque at the moment

#20 I agree gentlemen, the one weak point with the torque at the moment is a decent, affordable 3D modeller and GMAX fits the ticket perfectly.

There is nothing in the license agreement for GMAX that prevents commercial use. The only licensing requirement is if you wish to provide a game pack with your game so that users can create their own modifications and you distribute GMAX with your game.

Therefore if the TGE directly supported GMAX I don't believe there would be any problems.

I'll see if I can contact discreet and get a direct answer.