Continuous mesh vs segmented mesh
by soy.bean · in Artist Corner · 07/07/2003 (11:13 pm) · 19 replies
I'm currently on a project working with this fantastic Torque engine but got really confused on deciding whether the models I would make should be a continous mesh or a segmented one. The Max2DTS tutorial on Torque's documentations had a continous one as an example. While on the example app (that blue player guy) the meshes were segmented (although un-biped). Could anybody kindly tell me what should be the significant difference between both methods? What do you guys recommend on this particular matter?
thanks a lot!
[g]
thanks a lot!
[g]
About the author
#2
...my knowledge is limited to that of a hack-artist...eh,hmm...that means I use the retargeting of the EXE's shortcut to open all my Torque items for the moment....
07/08/2003 (7:40 pm)
...hey, Thanks for your views Logan, I've been struggling with this topic in my research for a Project; could you please go a little bit further into the final phase of the model: exporting into the Torque Engine? What are some pros/cons on exportation of each style? Doesn't the single mesh, rigged with bones, need a special modifier?, the COM_Skin? or are both handled with the same DTS exporter?...my knowledge is limited to that of a hack-artist...eh,hmm...that means I use the retargeting of the EXE's shortcut to open all my Torque items for the moment....
#3
07/08/2003 (8:26 pm)
@L Foster: Thanks a lot, man! I've checked through the 3dmodelling forums but couldn't find any of the threads leading to similar topics. Maybe I passed it somewhere.. Another question, on a segmented mesh, do you attach the whole thing together and apply skin or skinned each mesh separately? I'm trying to model a mech and single mesh seems too organic, while segmenting it was pretty easy during the modelling process but as I skin it turns out kinda hard.
#4
You could also build the model with elements. You don't have to attach all the vertices. That would also save time. It really is up to you on how you wanna do it.
Matt
07/08/2003 (9:53 pm)
You can use skin on each part. Alot more work but you can. Just use the bone that that part would attached to.You could also build the model with elements. You don't have to attach all the vertices. That would also save time. It really is up to you on how you wanna do it.
Matt
#5
A single mesh shape simply needs the Skin modifier (for Max R4 and above, or whatever the equivelent is in the other 3D applications that support DTS exporter). Com_Skin is only needed for Max R3 as it is an updated GDC release of the Skin modifier that was initially released in Max R3
As for exporting:
Segmented Mesh
Pros - No need to create duplicate shapes, just apply Multires right to the geometry (if not using skin modifier to link geometry to bone); Slightly easier to make changes to the geometry later on.
Cons - More of a potential for "unwelded vertex" errors between two shapes (caused by verticies that are close to one another and the digits of percision sent to the DTS shape); Its a bit more time consuming to setup multires and the multires details because you have to click more; If you are linking as a child to a bone, it can be somewhat frustrating if you don't know how to do it right.
Single Mesh
Pros - One shape, easy to setup the Multires Details
Cons - Need to create a Copy (Mesh) of your model at frame 0 (if using Skin modifier) that you then place the Multires Modifier and properties onto and then link as a child to your original mesh.
@Guntur
You can either link up the segmented pieces to the bones (ie. make the segmented piece a child of the bone so that it inherits all of the transform data from it) or you can setup a deformation modifier (ie. Skin). Either will work.
For Lore (a mecha game) we are simply linking geometric shapes up to the bone/skeleton structure and going from there.
07/08/2003 (11:23 pm)
@RexA single mesh shape simply needs the Skin modifier (for Max R4 and above, or whatever the equivelent is in the other 3D applications that support DTS exporter). Com_Skin is only needed for Max R3 as it is an updated GDC release of the Skin modifier that was initially released in Max R3
As for exporting:
Segmented Mesh
Pros - No need to create duplicate shapes, just apply Multires right to the geometry (if not using skin modifier to link geometry to bone); Slightly easier to make changes to the geometry later on.
Cons - More of a potential for "unwelded vertex" errors between two shapes (caused by verticies that are close to one another and the digits of percision sent to the DTS shape); Its a bit more time consuming to setup multires and the multires details because you have to click more; If you are linking as a child to a bone, it can be somewhat frustrating if you don't know how to do it right.
Single Mesh
Pros - One shape, easy to setup the Multires Details
Cons - Need to create a Copy (Mesh) of your model at frame 0 (if using Skin modifier) that you then place the Multires Modifier and properties onto and then link as a child to your original mesh.
@Guntur
You can either link up the segmented pieces to the bones (ie. make the segmented piece a child of the bone so that it inherits all of the transform data from it) or you can setup a deformation modifier (ie. Skin). Either will work.
For Lore (a mecha game) we are simply linking geometric shapes up to the bone/skeleton structure and going from there.
#6
>If you are linking as a child to a bone, it can be
>somewhat frustrating if you don't know how to do it right.
can you kindly explain how is the right way to set up multires in this condition? thanks a lot!
07/09/2003 (7:59 am)
@L Foster: your idea on linking the segmented parts directly to biped work really great! never thought about that! :) heheh.. sometimes when you get too 'smart' you just forget the 'simpler' methods..>If you are linking as a child to a bone, it can be
>somewhat frustrating if you don't know how to do it right.
can you kindly explain how is the right way to set up multires in this condition? thanks a lot!
#7
>You could also build the model with elements.
>You don't have to attach all the vertices.
does this mean i can use the skin modifier to attach it with elements instead of vertices? sorry if this question sounds really stupid :)
07/09/2003 (8:09 am)
@Matthew: thanks for the reply! but i think i'll stick to Foster's idea since mechs don't have a 'skin'. i see the skin modifier is mostly very useful for organic models.>You could also build the model with elements.
>You don't have to attach all the vertices.
does this mean i can use the skin modifier to attach it with elements instead of vertices? sorry if this question sounds really stupid :)
#8
You setup Multires as you would any other modifier, its just that in this case you need to click on every segmented piece of your model, apply the modifier, generate, apply the LOD, and then repeat for your next piece until done.
The real frustration can take place when you setup the hierarchies, as you can sometimes incorrectly link one object to another if you use the default click & drag tool.
07/09/2003 (9:17 am)
@GunturYou setup Multires as you would any other modifier, its just that in this case you need to click on every segmented piece of your model, apply the modifier, generate, apply the LOD, and then repeat for your next piece until done.
The real frustration can take place when you setup the hierarchies, as you can sometimes incorrectly link one object to another if you use the default click & drag tool.
#9
For instance if make 2 block set them side by side then attach one of them to the other they are seperate elements. But if you weld the corner vertices together they become one element.
If you make your model in pieces then attach them into one mesh you will be able to add the skin modifier to just one mesh. Then you can envelope your model. It will give it the same effect as being in pieces. You can exclude any vertices fron an envelope that shouldn't belong to the bone.
@LFoster
I am not clear on this but wouldn't linking your mesh to the biped, Then animating the biped and export the model make the models animation non_deformadable mesh animtion (I can remember the name for that)?. But it would be like using physique? Just wondering never really tried it.
Matt
07/09/2003 (8:48 pm)
No What I mean is build you model in peices then attach each peice to whatever you want for the base of the model (I'm talking mesh only).For instance if make 2 block set them side by side then attach one of them to the other they are seperate elements. But if you weld the corner vertices together they become one element.
If you make your model in pieces then attach them into one mesh you will be able to add the skin modifier to just one mesh. Then you can envelope your model. It will give it the same effect as being in pieces. You can exclude any vertices fron an envelope that shouldn't belong to the bone.
@LFoster
I am not clear on this but wouldn't linking your mesh to the biped, Then animating the biped and export the model make the models animation non_deformadable mesh animtion (I can remember the name for that)?. But it would be like using physique? Just wondering never really tried it.
Matt
#10
>The real frustration can take place when you setup
>the hierarchies, as you can sometimes incorrectly
>link one object to another if you use the default
>click & drag tool
oh yeah, yesterday I got all the linking messed up by linking the bone to the mesh with that click and drag tool. I found using the hierarchy window-thing would prevent me from mislinking the whole model :). thanks a lot for reminding me!
I think what Matthew meant was about exporting the model and having the animation a morph animation (instead of the more efficient, real time deformation). That got me wondering also..
Let me quote from the documention:
"Morph meshes do not use nodes to drive the animation. In the 3DSMAX scene, you may be using bones, x-forms, or linked x-forms to animate the mesh, but the end result is different...
...Other mesh deformation modifiers like x-form and linked x-form are supported as morph animations, but as above, they will not deform in real time based on the skeleton."
I really don't know about this, but do you think by linking the mesh to a biped would be part of the catagory listed as deformation modifiers?
07/09/2003 (9:18 pm)
@L Foster>The real frustration can take place when you setup
>the hierarchies, as you can sometimes incorrectly
>link one object to another if you use the default
>click & drag tool
oh yeah, yesterday I got all the linking messed up by linking the bone to the mesh with that click and drag tool. I found using the hierarchy window-thing would prevent me from mislinking the whole model :). thanks a lot for reminding me!
I think what Matthew meant was about exporting the model and having the animation a morph animation (instead of the more efficient, real time deformation). That got me wondering also..
Let me quote from the documention:
"Morph meshes do not use nodes to drive the animation. In the 3DSMAX scene, you may be using bones, x-forms, or linked x-forms to animate the mesh, but the end result is different...
...Other mesh deformation modifiers like x-form and linked x-form are supported as morph animations, but as above, they will not deform in real time based on the skeleton."
I really don't know about this, but do you think by linking the mesh to a biped would be part of the catagory listed as deformation modifiers?
#11
You are correct, linking a node to the bone/biped would result in a non deforming animation (such as in the TGE Demo Guy).
Instead of linking you could use Skin (or Physique if you want to export everything as a Morph animation) to assosciate the node to the control bone/biped parts, but if you are using a segmented mesh this is time consuming and you end up with the same result as linking.
@Guntur
Another method of linking is this: With the "link" tool selected, choose your node that you wish to link, then bring up the "select by name" window, from here choose the target node that you wish to link to. Your target node that you first selected is now linked to the destination node that you chose from the "select by name" window.
As for explaining Morph Animations, I will try to explain what this does, using the snapshot tool in 3DS Max as an example.
Take your animated character or object, and then do a "snapshot" of the object. Have it so that each frame in the animation creates a geometric snapshot of the animating object. See how you get a new geometric object for each frame that matches the exact state of the model at that particular frame? This is exactly what the "Morph" option will do, take a snapshot of the models position at each frame and write all the data out to the file.
As you can probably guess, this can easily create for you a very large file, and it also does not allow you to mix animations together.
07/10/2003 (3:05 pm)
@MatthewYou are correct, linking a node to the bone/biped would result in a non deforming animation (such as in the TGE Demo Guy).
Instead of linking you could use Skin (or Physique if you want to export everything as a Morph animation) to assosciate the node to the control bone/biped parts, but if you are using a segmented mesh this is time consuming and you end up with the same result as linking.
@Guntur
Another method of linking is this: With the "link" tool selected, choose your node that you wish to link, then bring up the "select by name" window, from here choose the target node that you wish to link to. Your target node that you first selected is now linked to the destination node that you chose from the "select by name" window.
As for explaining Morph Animations, I will try to explain what this does, using the snapshot tool in 3DS Max as an example.
Take your animated character or object, and then do a "snapshot" of the object. Have it so that each frame in the animation creates a geometric snapshot of the animating object. See how you get a new geometric object for each frame that matches the exact state of the model at that particular frame? This is exactly what the "Morph" option will do, take a snapshot of the models position at each frame and write all the data out to the file.
As you can probably guess, this can easily create for you a very large file, and it also does not allow you to mix animations together.
#12
>the hierarchies, as you can sometimes incorrectly
>link one object to another if you use the default
>click & drag tool"
are speaking in terms of viewport display or schematic display? I've found schematic the easiest to visualize the hierachies...and if you are speaking of the schematic display thanks for the tip on click to click object linking...
...and thanks for the excellent pros/cons...exactly what's needed for a Torque n00b, who's has not yet exported a character to the engine yet...well, MAX character yet, Ms3d was simple but raw and not quite there...
07/11/2003 (7:42 am)
...when you speak of ">The real frustration can take place when you setup >the hierarchies, as you can sometimes incorrectly
>link one object to another if you use the default
>click & drag tool"
are speaking in terms of viewport display or schematic display? I've found schematic the easiest to visualize the hierachies...and if you are speaking of the schematic display thanks for the tip on click to click object linking...
...and thanks for the excellent pros/cons...exactly what's needed for a Torque n00b, who's has not yet exported a character to the engine yet...well, MAX character yet, Ms3d was simple but raw and not quite there...
#13
When you say "non deforming animation", is that the same thing as "morph animation"? does that also mean that that "TGE Blue Player Demo"-thing had morph animations on it? how can you tell from one dts if it's morph or deform (i'm guessing, by using the show-tool)?
>Instead of linking you could use Skin (or Physique if you want
>to export everything as a Morph animation) to assosciate the
>node to the control bone/biped parts, but if you are using a
>segmented mesh this is time consuming and you end up with the
>same result as linking.
does this also mean that if i use skin on a segmented mesh, i won't be able to export the animations as real-time deformations?
i've tried skinning my mecha-segmented-model and i'm getting the hang of it. it's not that hard after all.. i think i got it right already, just need to try to export it and see :)
thanks a lot!
07/11/2003 (9:19 am)
@L FosterWhen you say "non deforming animation", is that the same thing as "morph animation"? does that also mean that that "TGE Blue Player Demo"-thing had morph animations on it? how can you tell from one dts if it's morph or deform (i'm guessing, by using the show-tool)?
>Instead of linking you could use Skin (or Physique if you want
>to export everything as a Morph animation) to assosciate the
>node to the control bone/biped parts, but if you are using a
>segmented mesh this is time consuming and you end up with the
>same result as linking.
does this also mean that if i use skin on a segmented mesh, i won't be able to export the animations as real-time deformations?
i've tried skinning my mecha-segmented-model and i'm getting the hang of it. it's not that hard after all.. i think i got it right already, just need to try to export it and see :)
thanks a lot!
#14
No, deformable simply means that the vertices on the mesh are pulled, stretched, altered based on the influence of data from within the scene. In this case it is typically bones/biped shapes using the Skin modifier that does this.
The TGE "Blue Guy" isn't a deformable nor a morphing mesh. He is constructed much like many of the Tribes 2 characters were as a segmented mesh.
Since most segmented meshes are broken up into pieces at each of the joints there is essentially no need to use a Skin modifier (since you can just link the segment to the appropriate bone), nor is there any need for the mesh to deform (because it won't do anything that you can visibly see).
07/11/2003 (9:13 pm)
@GunturNo, deformable simply means that the vertices on the mesh are pulled, stretched, altered based on the influence of data from within the scene. In this case it is typically bones/biped shapes using the Skin modifier that does this.
The TGE "Blue Guy" isn't a deformable nor a morphing mesh. He is constructed much like many of the Tribes 2 characters were as a segmented mesh.
Since most segmented meshes are broken up into pieces at each of the joints there is essentially no need to use a Skin modifier (since you can just link the segment to the appropriate bone), nor is there any need for the mesh to deform (because it won't do anything that you can visibly see).
#15
since you pointed out that segmented meshes with animation are treated somewhat differently (non-deformable), then does that mean real-time-deformation and morph-animation only apply to continuous mesh?
07/13/2003 (9:57 am)
Thanks again for the replies L Foster, but i think this will be my last question..since you pointed out that segmented meshes with animation are treated somewhat differently (non-deformable), then does that mean real-time-deformation and morph-animation only apply to continuous mesh?
#16
Real-Time deformation will depend entirely on how you have rigged your mesh to your bones/biped. If you use a deformation modifier (such as Skin in the case of TGE) then your geometry will deform in real-time based on how the bones/biped transform (move, rotate or scale).
Pleaser remember that when we link our segmented mesh to bones/biped we still get the animation that is applied to our bones (which adjusts the our segmented geometry that is linked to it in real-time), but we do not get any deformation of our geometric shapes happening.
Hope that makes sense to you.
07/13/2003 (12:19 pm)
A morph animation/sequence can apply to any geometric shape if you want it to, but because it's such a pig in regards to resources (because it needs to take an image of your geometry at each frame) it's not normally used or recommended unless absolutely necessary.Real-Time deformation will depend entirely on how you have rigged your mesh to your bones/biped. If you use a deformation modifier (such as Skin in the case of TGE) then your geometry will deform in real-time based on how the bones/biped transform (move, rotate or scale).
Pleaser remember that when we link our segmented mesh to bones/biped we still get the animation that is applied to our bones (which adjusts the our segmented geometry that is linked to it in real-time), but we do not get any deformation of our geometric shapes happening.
Hope that makes sense to you.
#17
07/14/2003 (7:38 am)
This is a really helpful thread, thanks for continuing it and hanging in there with us, Logan.
#18
07/14/2003 (8:51 am)
Oh.. OK, I've got the picture clear now. Thanks a lot for all the support and replies, guys! this has been VERY helpful :)
#19
07/14/2003 (8:55 am)
Not a problem guys, glad that I could help
Associate Logan Foster
perPixel Studios
Segmented Mesh
Pros - Easy to texture, easy to rig with bones (either by linking or using the skin modifier), some people find it easier to model with them.
Cons - Can look ugly, you can sometimes get breaks or weird unwanted results at your joints when the bones move, you can end up with a extra polygons.
Single Mesh
Pros - Looks nice, if you setup the weighting correctly you get a very nice result when it deforms with the bones.
Cons - A bit of a pain to texture and to weigh with bones.
Logan