Avarage number of sold games ?

#21 So it's "guessed" that TGE games have sold no more than 5000 copies? What does that include? Only games sold via GarageGames?

I'd think that Tribes2 must have hit that number by itself, judging from counts of active online players during its popular months near launch (they had probably around 2000 at any one time, and of course, not every buyer is online all the time, so that's probably from a pool of buyers that is significantly larger).

Certainly, a game like Tribes2 could be made with TGE. Even out of the box, I think TGE looks a little better. Certainly performance is a lot better (we all have faster machines now). The engine still looks pretty good, IMO.

I don't think the limiting factor on your game's success would be the Torque engine. Some games sell well because they are technologically innovative. Id Software's games come to mind here. However, many games do remarkably well with very little technological innovation. Half Life and Jedi Knight (the original, but also the sequel) were both built with established technologies, but were huge hits.

Anything you can do to generate hype will help you out, whether it's awesome graphics, some really innovative new gameplay device, or some sort of endorsement (Clive Barker, anyone?). Lots of luck helps, too, I'd imagine :)

Personally, I seek out fun, innovative games. So if you make a fun, innovative game, and I don't hear about it, I consider it your fault, and my loss. Yet, I'm sure stuff like this probably happens regularly, due to poor publicity. It's a lose-lose situation.

#22

Quote:
Certainly, a game like Tribes2 could be made with TGE.

I dunno man, sounds unlikely.

#23 Scott

Tribes 2 wasnt a garagegames release. Its was a Sierra stuff, and Sierra made the big hype and all the marketing around.
Its must be sold much much more than 5000 units, an avarage box publisher is just counting at least 100,000 units. A lesser box published project is start to pay out the royalty fees to the developer AFTER they hit this 100K sold unit. tribes 2 was a Hit, not the biggest, but i think they sold at least 200-300K++ units or more all around.

All the sold units we are counting, not only via garagegames site. We are thinking about to make contracts with bigger shareware sites too..

Yes i know, what are you think Scott, quality and the funfactor is the main indicator of the sold units. I mean the power of business segment, just becouse we are coming from the boxmarket, and this place have different rules.

The question is that, is there to possibble to sold at least 4-5000 units in the first 3 month with this business modell, if we are making a "good" (good for everyone...i mean the game is that good for you, or the other readers, subjectively), at least with equal or higher quality-, and funlevel of the released games on the GG site. (like Think Thank, or Orbz)

I read a great article about Scott Miller, and his unbelievable carree at the shareware and later the boxed business. He was the head of the wellknown shareware brand Apogee...he is the guy behind the original Duke Nukem theme, and he is worked together with id soft in the early 90's.
But year has gone, im not Miller and all the business, the whole game business has changed, and i dont know SW is workable in this days, or not, or business, but only for those guys, like GG, ho are lucky enough to sell a complete candy like TGE.

Other good example for the succeed shareware company is reflexive entertainment, (www.reflexive.net) thay made very nice, but very basic games, like wallbreakers, or simple space or shooter games. They are very succesfull company, but they have boxed division too, they latest release is Lionhart what is an RPG game for Black Isle Studios.

I hope Scott you will to see at least ONE good game from us in the future, we are counting with your support. :)

best wishes
Gabor


check us at > http://www.nagual.hu

Only graphic things, no games at the moment. :)

#24 Errr... I can't tell who's being serious and who's being facetious.

Tribes2 was made by Dynamix which was bought out by Sierra. Some of Team Dynamix quit Sierra and formed GarageGames. GarageGames negotiated with Sierra on licensing the Tribes2 engine for release as what is now the Torque Engine.

Tribes2 was boxed for retail sale.

Torque now is better than the T2 engine, thus theoretically a game better than T2 is possible (some say that wouldn't be hard to do, though I happened to like Tribes2).

For the record: GarageGames actually did the latest update to Tribes2, including some new game types.

-EricF

#25 Eric, thanks for this additional information to write into the thread, a hope this will
be usefull for guys, like Scott.

#26 Eric,

I was joking in my post. Don't know for sure about the other folks :)

#27 Eric, thanks for this additional information to write into the thread, a hope this will
be usefull for guys, like Scott.

#28 LOL George, I chuckled when I read your message of earlier ("I dunno, man..." ) :-)

-EricF

#29 An article over at Curmudgeon Gamer collects together and discusses the revenue reported over the past eight quarters for five game companies: Electronic Arts, Take Two Interactive, Activision, THQ, and Midway. Using graphs and some discussion, it reveals some interesting points and trends in the market. You can see how important Grand Theft Auto has been to Take Two, just how big EA really is compared to Activision, and whether the Xbox or GameCube is generating more revenue for these game companies. This is a very interesting attempt at collating and comparing revenue data for some of the bigger multi-platform game publishers.

You can find the article here:
curmudgeongamer.com/article.php?story=20030729225235834

#30 @Joe Maruschak
Joe, a few monthes ago (08.jul.2003, based ony your comment) did you promised (?) numbers about your experiences with the Think Thank selling. Can you write a few lines about ? You have now around 6 month of experiences in selling right now...
Your comments would be very welcome :)

#31 Hmm..

Now that we are dealing with the different distribution channels, I have to be careful about what I can and cannot say (due to non-disclosure agreements). We are doing ok, we are still converting well. I will talk to the GarageGames guys and see what I can say.

I think it is safe to say that we are doing much better than some of the smaller number posted above.

Joe

#32 As it looks like I'll be joining the GG published devs soon. Do you guys make enough to work on thinktanks full time? Were hoping that we can make enough for the 2 of us to keep developing new games without taking on extra part time jobs. (unless the are things we like doing).

Thats what my ultimate goal is anyway :)

#33 @Joe
The smallets number was above :

Alien Flux - 14 Sales In June 2003

posted by Gregory Micek on the same day.(08.Jul.2003) It means that you have selled at least 20 units, becouse " you are doing it much better than the smallest number above" ? 8;)



I hope not so, anyway...

#34 "Sold instead of selled" ofcourse. Sorry for bad spelling..im still sleepy today. :>

#35 If you take a look at the ThinkTanks forums here on GarageGames, I think it would be safe to assume that we have sold a few more than that.

Everyone at GarageGames is getting ready for the IGC, so things have been a little hectic around here. When the conference is over, I will find out what it is ok to post and try to shed a little more light on the situation in terms of real numbers.

again, one must understand that we (BraveTree) feel like we are still in the process of 'shipping' the game, and getting it out into the distribution channels.

Given that we had no marketing budget, and we are new to the ESD thing (we are still learning how to do this) so direct comparison of any numbers we have may not reflect what one might be able to do with their game.

Can someone make a living doing this? My answer is yes. We are not yet making enough on a monthly basis to earn the salaries we were getting at Dynamix, but we are making enough to keep us going. We were confident enough in our future as an Indie Company to get office space.

Can someone sell 5000 units in a few months using the 'indie' model we are using? This number is ambitious, but I think it is doable.

I would suggest that if this is someones first title as an indie and they are shippping online, the numbers are probably unrealistic. We knew we could make a good game, but we are still learning about all the intricacies of shipping online, getting the game out into the channels, and all the possible ways one can levergage the IP to make money with it.

#36 Heh, yeah. If I can get 1/3 of my old sallary from my previous commercial games job it will be enough to keep going and keep the wife quiet :)

#37 Please read my latest .plan. Unless you are extremely lucky, you will not make a living with one game. Being an indie is hard. Harder than you could ever imagine. You cannot possibly expect to replace day job income by making one small game in your spare time.

I get email every day asking me for what to expect from sales of an indie game on a quarterly/yearly/daily basis. I can't answer these questions because there are too many variables. Is your game great? If it is great, do people want to buy it? Are you good at shameless self promotion. Are you a good enough negotiator to get all the distribution channels to pick up your game? Is it good enough to go into the box channel. Will it sell internationally? Etc.

We are sending out some really nice royalty checks every month now. For competitive reasons we are not going to give out sales figures. Can you make a living as an indie? YES! Are most of the expectations on this thread too high? Yes.

Again, think about it. Let's assume that you and two other people get an engine and work on a game in your spare time for a year. If you have a job and any kind of life, you will be hard pressed to work 20 yours per week on your game, but for the benefit of doubt, let's say you put in 25 hours per week, so you will each have 25*52=1300 hours per personl. In a normal job you work 45 hours per week for 52 weeks, or 2340 hours in a year, basically twice as much as on your indie project on a per person basis.

At thie rate it will take a couple of years to build up enough products to generate an income stream that can replace your job. It is not realistic to think that comparatively your work on your game will yield more $ per hour than your current job. If so, we have just found an easy way to make money, and you should quit your day job now and make game. But, remember my first rule of making indie games: "Don't quit your day job."

I will say this. Most indie games will not sell even 100 units per month. It takes extraordinary talent, perserverence, and hard work to do better. Our best games are doing way, way better than that, and some indies are even getting rich (not from GG yet though).

Edit: grammar.

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#38 Steve Pavlina of Dexterity Software quit his day job based on sales of his game

#39 To think, 10 years ago, Shareware games would sell in the 10's of thousands, and some in the 100's of thousands.

Its to bad shareware games are not huge sellers anymore, but I think that will happen again. With the great tools that indi developers have access to, we can have great games.

Personally with the hassles of dealing with a investment company, and a team that doesnt want to sacrafice for a set amount of time, I have been tempted to just do a fun indi game with Torque and not worry about making money, just work. And if the game is successful, great, if not, great.

#40 Yeah, great games can be made, the hardest part is finding the ballance that allows you to make games within a reasonable timeframe si that you might be able to have multiple products selling simultaneously. I doubt a single game is going to make you a fortune, but it might make you enough to get by and produce more games as long as you don't get extravagant with your spending :)