Im a little confused now:(

#1 Cipher:

Pros:
1) Pretty good demos to show off
2) there is nothing else

Cons:
1) Lacks documentation on their site
2) Apparently not good enough to be available for sell
3) Not cross-platform
4) It's not Torque! ;)

Torque:

Pros:
1) Networking is award winning
2) Scripting engine is awsome
3) Support and documentation actually exists and is well put.
4) You can actually buy it!
5) Good support site with real forums.
6) Torque is created and maintained by an actual company(GarageGames)
7) And there's too much to list here.

Cons:
1) Graphics ain't very fancy, but I really don't care about it much.
2) There is no two.

#2 Well the fact is cipher engine popped out of middle of nowhere and GarageGames.com has grown a lot and cipher's site cannot compare to this one at all. I cannot see cipher as a real solution at all. I also find it very scary for cipher to be done in MFC(Microsoft Foundation Class) when every developer who has even messed with that component to be very unreliable.

Becides Torque works and compiles on Windows, Linux, and Macs. Can you say the same for Cipher? I don't think so. Cipher doesn't look trust worthly at all anyway.

#3 (As far as graphics go, more and more resources are being released to address this in Torque 1, like Hobbiticus' excellent bumpmapping patch, and Torque 2 will have a full complement of the latest features... whenever it comes out ;)

#4 Thanks for the help guys:D
@Ben-Should I just wait till Torque 2 comes out? Will it be the same price as Torque (If you even know...)I dont want to buy Torque 1, and then in a few months, have to turn around and buy Torque 2:( If you can help, I would appreciate it greatly:)

#5 I'd say get Torque now, I'm pretty sure of the GG guys has said there will be an upgrade path for Torque owners.

As for Cipher, I'd say don't listen to the clown above. Wait until you've talked to someone who's actually used it.

#6 I am investing heavily into Torque.

-J

#7 I agree Anthony, the engine is not even out yet. I'll go with Torque. Seems like the better deal........

#8 I agree Anthony, the engine is not even out yet. I'll go with Torque. Seems like the better deal........

#9 This isn't really a good place to ask that. It would be like asking if Linux is a good OS on a microsoft mailing list.

#10 To ask what? My question? Im sorry, but I got to know which is better;)

#11 I've been dealing with many engines over the last 5 years.
From A5 (Formerly Ack/AckNex) through Genesis/Jet/Nebula/Crystal Space/Auran Jet and more obscure engines.
For the money/up-and-running demo time/flexibility/choice between primary script driven or C code change driven/support (by Business)/and expansion/updating, you can't beat Torque.

I still web travel, for comparison reasons, and I'm a Torque SDK owner.

There's nothing wrong with looking around.

But, for real, there's nothing worse than investing massive amounts of time, only to find you MUST change engines, because the one you're on, is outdated/stagnant/lacking critical documentation/or just CAN'T ever do what you need, without a core change (that may never happen with some engines).

I've changed engines 5 times.
At least most artwork/models are transferrable.

With Torque (no BS), I think I've finally found the best bang/feature/flex for the buck.

Whatever you decide, do ensure you give many points, a lot of thought.

#12 John,

I would suggest you get Torque now. There'll be the upgrade path to T2 when it's avaialble but in the meantime you can get used to the coding, scripting and have access to the vast resources that SDK owners have. We're a good bunch and we can pretty much help out in most situations on things you want to do with the engine.

AS for the comparison with Cipher (and any other engine) I think this has been done to death but look at Torque's track record, Tribes and Tribes 2. Proven industrial strength commercial games. The only thing that compares to this is the Unreal or Quake engines and those start at $25k and go up as high as $250-$500k.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with Torque.

#13 By the way, did I mention
>>support (by Business)/and expansion/updating, you can't beat Torque.

Oh, I see an Associate replied already : )

#14 @Bil: Quake I and II are $10k for closed source work... they are free if you GPL your source.

Torque is a good deal. :)

-J

#15 @Josh: I was referring to Q3 not the older ones (trying to compare apples to apples here) but thanks.

#16 What starts at $25k?

#17 I've heard that you can get the Unreal engine for non-game related ventures for something like $25k. The guys that did that virtual walkthrough for a realty company and the NASA walkthrough come to mind as these type of apps. For a FPS game you get dinged the full $250k (or whatever the engine goes for these days). Not sure if iD has the same kind of deal.

#18 Thank you all for the heads-up;) And Bil, I can see your point on why Torque is a good deal....I was just worried that I would have to buy Torque 1, and then have to get the newer and better game engine(Torque 2). So when Torque 2 does come out, it will be offered as a up-date? Or is it going to be offered as a completly new game engine? Thanks for everything thus so far everyone:D

#19 I believe it'll cost more money, so it may be a new engine.

#20

Quote:Well the fact is cipher engine popped out of middle of nowhere and GarageGames.com has grown a lot and cipher's site cannot compare to this one at all.

Cipher Engine has been around for a while. As for comparing the sites that is just kicking dust. Any competent individual should be capable of familiarizing himself with alien source code.

Quote:I cannot see cipher as a real solution at all.

Honestly neither do I. But I also do not see a real solution in Torque, either.

Quote:I also find it very scary for cipher to be done in MFC(Microsoft Foundation Class) when every developer who has even messed with that component to be very unreliable.

Cipher Engine is written in C; it does not utilize the Microsoft Foundation Classes.

Quote:Becides Torque works and compiles on Windows, Linux, and Macs. Can you say the same for Cipher? I don't think so. Cipher doesn't look trust worthly at all anyway.

There is a group working toward adding Linux and Macintosh support to Cipher. Rik has made it a very straightforward task.

Cipher and Torque are for two very different audiences. Torque is written in C++ and Cipher is written in C. They both are very intelligently written in places, but in other places could use optimization. Torque has a scripting system; Cipher has the option of using a virtual machine. Torque is currently working on documentation; Cipher has a somewhat complete documentation done as of now. Both Torque and Cipher are maintained by their creators and their admiring communities.

My post does not do justice to the true quality of either engine.