Torque Wiki
by Bil Simser · in Torque Game Engine · 06/23/2003 (9:03 am) · 59 replies
Hi guys,
Don't get me wrong. I think having as much information is great however I'm seeing a trend (and maybe this has been going on for awhile) in that there are several (I can count about 5 so far) in creating various walkthrough/newbie guides to TGE.
It makes me wonder if we, as the community, should be more community oriented. I was thinking maybe a wiki site for these docs might be a good way to keep things together. I'm not knocking the efforts of those who are creating the guides, but I think it would be more beneficial to both the TGE community both public and private in having a single unified source of living documents. With something like a wikiweb approach not only could everything be captured but searchable, subscribable, etc. and everyone can contribute (that's the power of wiki).
Anyways, let me know what you think and maybe we can organize and unify the documentation efforts that are going on all around the globe.
Thanks!
Don't get me wrong. I think having as much information is great however I'm seeing a trend (and maybe this has been going on for awhile) in that there are several (I can count about 5 so far) in creating various walkthrough/newbie guides to TGE.
It makes me wonder if we, as the community, should be more community oriented. I was thinking maybe a wiki site for these docs might be a good way to keep things together. I'm not knocking the efforts of those who are creating the guides, but I think it would be more beneficial to both the TGE community both public and private in having a single unified source of living documents. With something like a wikiweb approach not only could everything be captured but searchable, subscribable, etc. and everyone can contribute (that's the power of wiki).
Anyways, let me know what you think and maybe we can organize and unify the documentation efforts that are going on all around the globe.
Thanks!
#22
Coming over here from the Unreal Modding community, I am very familiar with the UnrealWiki, which is a very good source of info for the Unreal Engine. It covers all aspects of Unreal Mod development, and while I was creating a UT mod, it was very helpful.
With so many people contributing, lots of little juicy tidbits are all over the place. Someone would write a tut, and next thing you know, 12 people respond with "Don't forget to..", and "It's also helpful when..", and "Remember not to...", etc. And the info just keeps growing.
So, I am definitely for having a similar system in place on the GG site. And as for malicious users, yes it is very true that this is preetty much a non-issue on a well-moderated Wiki, I think it would be even less of a problem here, since the problem-causer could be banned from the entire GG site. Nt a attractive proposition to anyuone's that's plopped down $100 on the TGE.
06/25/2003 (9:20 am)
Quote:Post your ideas as well as experiences with PHP+MySQL based wikki packages.
Coming over here from the Unreal Modding community, I am very familiar with the UnrealWiki, which is a very good source of info for the Unreal Engine. It covers all aspects of Unreal Mod development, and while I was creating a UT mod, it was very helpful.
With so many people contributing, lots of little juicy tidbits are all over the place. Someone would write a tut, and next thing you know, 12 people respond with "Don't forget to..", and "It's also helpful when..", and "Remember not to...", etc. And the info just keeps growing.
So, I am definitely for having a similar system in place on the GG site. And as for malicious users, yes it is very true that this is preetty much a non-issue on a well-moderated Wiki, I think it would be even less of a problem here, since the problem-causer could be banned from the entire GG site. Nt a attractive proposition to anyuone's that's plopped down $100 on the TGE.
#23
I've just bought the SDK and have found that there is lots of good information BUT it is spread out over a lot of forum posts, websites and the official documentation mixed in with outdated information and the odd bad link. I am all for the official documentation that is coming soon, however as the forums show, users post a lot of information that is added by other users and a fair amount of the time it not the type of stuff you would find in official docs as it too specific. At the moment all this information is decentralised (in that it is contained in forum posts) and it can be a bit hit and miss as to whether you find the information your looking for using the search functionality on the forums.
To sum up it would be nice to have all the information that is available indexed and the wiki not helps with this but it really does build up the community more as I've seen over at UnrealWiki.
03/06/2004 (6:22 pm)
Has this idea gotten any further? I've just bought the SDK and have found that there is lots of good information BUT it is spread out over a lot of forum posts, websites and the official documentation mixed in with outdated information and the odd bad link. I am all for the official documentation that is coming soon, however as the forums show, users post a lot of information that is added by other users and a fair amount of the time it not the type of stuff you would find in official docs as it too specific. At the moment all this information is decentralised (in that it is contained in forum posts) and it can be a bit hit and miss as to whether you find the information your looking for using the search functionality on the forums.
To sum up it would be nice to have all the information that is available indexed and the wiki not helps with this but it really does build up the community more as I've seen over at UnrealWiki.
#24
03/06/2004 (6:41 pm)
I wrote a Wiki like CMS type app (no search though), running at http://pixellent.stodge.net. I think Wikis are a great concept. I haven't heard anything about a Torque wiki being setup though.
#25
We have one for our local community. It's password-restricted.. and every time a chance is made, an email notification is sent out (serves the purposes of backup and identification)
03/06/2004 (8:35 pm)
Wiki is a great ideaWe have one for our local community. It's password-restricted.. and every time a chance is made, an email notification is sent out (serves the purposes of backup and identification)
#26
03/06/2004 (8:48 pm)
I like the idea. I have been using Torque for only a week or two and I think a wiki would help out people new to Torque a lot. 3D GameStudio (www.conitec.net) have just made a wiki and it has been a huge benifit to everyone.
#27
03/07/2004 (12:58 pm)
I agree that a wiki would be really awesome. But, of course, there's so much to do... *sigh* Hopefully someday. :)
#28
03/08/2004 (2:11 am)
A Wikki? Yes! A Wiki would be very nice.
#29
That said.... we have been talking about a wikki for GarageGames along with a number of other web changes/enhancements. As you know we have a documentation project underway which should really help locating information about the Torque. My major fear about a wikki is that just like the forums there will be a lot of great information in there and it will be never be extracted and placed in official documentation. And even if it is it will be a manual labor intensive process.
I have been doing a ton of research lately on cool new ways to use php and I have been chomping at the bit to start implementing some of my ideas. And to top it all of my plan is to Open Source as much of the new php code as possible, yippie!
03/08/2004 (9:27 am)
Just like the surprise screenshot of the day we have a lot of projects underway here at GarageGames. Since we are literally just a few guys in a garage (ok it's an old office building) it does take time for many of the projects to surface, and scheduling can be tricky since we are very reactive. I hope you all respect that we try to to yank your chain too often by announcing something that we know will not see the light of day for months and months. That said.... we have been talking about a wikki for GarageGames along with a number of other web changes/enhancements. As you know we have a documentation project underway which should really help locating information about the Torque. My major fear about a wikki is that just like the forums there will be a lot of great information in there and it will be never be extracted and placed in official documentation. And even if it is it will be a manual labor intensive process.
I have been doing a ton of research lately on cool new ways to use php and I have been chomping at the bit to start implementing some of my ideas. And to top it all of my plan is to Open Source as much of the new php code as possible, yippie!
#30
Maybe do a request for some forum moderators who could go through and prune the old or duplicate posts? Another thing that would be very nice is if the titles of threads would reflect content, another job for forum moderators perhaps?
The GG folks are hard at work working on Torque, and I'm sure they dont have time to go through posts.
peace,
-s
03/08/2004 (9:53 am)
One thing I would like to see that might help with a full text search is if we could kill a bunch of the old and useless posts, especially in mods, engine, private discussion and getting started. Maybe do a request for some forum moderators who could go through and prune the old or duplicate posts? Another thing that would be very nice is if the titles of threads would reflect content, another job for forum moderators perhaps?
The GG folks are hard at work working on Torque, and I'm sure they dont have time to go through posts.
peace,
-s
#31
1. initial organization
2. 'moderators' that enforce that organization
one of the major problems with the GG forums as they are is just about everything gets posted in "general discussion" or some other catch all incorrectly classified forum.
thus the information is scattered all over creation with no logical order.
At least with a wiki type environment improperly placed information could be placed in more proper areas by anyone and not just the overworked GG staff.
Lua Wiki is a nicely laid out and informative site.
I think a Wiki could more approprately replace the Resources and Code Snippets, but not the forums in particular which are more "discussion" related, where a Wiki is more of a "knowlege repository"
03/08/2004 (10:17 am)
The trick to a successful useful wiki is1. initial organization
2. 'moderators' that enforce that organization
one of the major problems with the GG forums as they are is just about everything gets posted in "general discussion" or some other catch all incorrectly classified forum.
thus the information is scattered all over creation with no logical order.
At least with a wiki type environment improperly placed information could be placed in more proper areas by anyone and not just the overworked GG staff.
Lua Wiki is a nicely laid out and informative site.
I think a Wiki could more approprately replace the Resources and Code Snippets, but not the forums in particular which are more "discussion" related, where a Wiki is more of a "knowlege repository"
#32
03/08/2004 (10:41 am)
Quote:As you know we have a documentation project underway which should really help locating information about the Torque. My major fear about a wikki is that just like the forums there will be a lot of great information in there and it will be never be extracted and placed in official documentation.The problem with official documentation is that it always takes awhile to be updated in the first place. This is because it's static and would be a labor intensive process in itself because it's usually only done by a few people. That's the reason behind the wanting of a Wiki in the first place, to have living documentation that is continually updated my many users (you get people to help document your product for free).
#33
Maybe the uber system is a user annotated system like the guys at php.net use. Much of which is written in DocBook...
03/08/2004 (10:58 am)
I agree, to date the documention update frequency has been sluggish. As part of the new project everything is being put into DocBook and then into a cvs repository where it will be much easier to update. While in a wikki it would be instant it doesn't provide a format were we could start providing printed documentation (or PDFs, or CHM's) like we can with DocBook...Maybe the uber system is a user annotated system like the guys at php.net use. Much of which is written in DocBook...
#34
03/08/2004 (10:04 pm)
I can setup a Wiki on my personal site. But i don't have unlimeted traffic (25 gig per month) and database sapce (100 MB). We would have to wait and see how it turns out, then i maybe have to pull out the plug if it gets to much.
#35
This would be great, maybe if it did turn out to be useful Garage Games could maybe pay the fees?
03/08/2004 (10:43 pm)
Quote:I can setup a Wiki on my personal site. But i don't have unlimeted traffic (25 gig per month) and database sapce (100 MB). We would have to wait and see how it turns out, then i maybe have to pull out the plug if it gets to much.
This would be great, maybe if it did turn out to be useful Garage Games could maybe pay the fees?
#36
03/09/2004 (1:30 am)
Ok I will setup one I just don't know wich I'm going to use. Any suggestions? I think http://www.wakkawiki.com/WakkaWiki is a good one.
#37
The problem with having an external wiki is that it leaves Garage Games without control over who has access, as it is a wiki and anyone can edit the pages there is the possibility that SDK owner only information would be available to non SDK owners. The flip side is that to prevent that type of leakage you would need some uber moderator to delete content and everyone would be scared to post in case they are breaking copyright.
If a wiki was to be implemented it would need to be located within the SDK owners section for security I would think.
Rick:
The wiki would have a purpose beyond updating the official documentation. If you look at UnrealWiki there is a lot of information that would not fit into any form of official documentation but is still very useful to developers.
You could setup the wiki so that you have a section that is for "draft official documentation" where the users could do the work of integrating much of the information that would be spread across the wiki into one place so that it makes it much easier for you guys at GG to use the information.
UnrealWiki is an all in one strategy, all the .plan and discussion go into the wiki. I can see that GG would rather keep the structure they have now and add the wiki as an additional feature, so how about this type of structure:
Discussions such as questions and answers would be in the forums.
Resources and code snippets could be put up as draft on the wiki and bugs weeded out then posted in the relevant sections when they are stable.
.plans remain the same as always to see what people are up to.
One thing that i've notice with unrealwiki is that discussions on forums outside of it will come up with new ideas and the phrase "I'll add that to the wiki" gets used quite a lot. The simple ability to easily add to the information without having to get a webhost and write html is a major reason why people contribute, because it easy to do and as long as the information up there is good the standard is kept high from what I have seen over at unrealwiki.
At the moment the GG forums have a lot of information that would be useful but it is hidden between lots of questions and outdated information, the wiki could help uncover this info.
In the end I am not trying to say that it would be a walk in the park to set up a wiki but security wise wiki would be within the SDK owners section so compared to unrealwiki which is open to anyone the risk is not as big. If there are qorries about the moderation that you could ask the people over at unrealwiki about their experiences as that wiki is a wiki that really works.
They come for the engine, they stay for the documentation.
03/09/2004 (8:34 am)
Stefan:The problem with having an external wiki is that it leaves Garage Games without control over who has access, as it is a wiki and anyone can edit the pages there is the possibility that SDK owner only information would be available to non SDK owners. The flip side is that to prevent that type of leakage you would need some uber moderator to delete content and everyone would be scared to post in case they are breaking copyright.
If a wiki was to be implemented it would need to be located within the SDK owners section for security I would think.
Rick:
The wiki would have a purpose beyond updating the official documentation. If you look at UnrealWiki there is a lot of information that would not fit into any form of official documentation but is still very useful to developers.
You could setup the wiki so that you have a section that is for "draft official documentation" where the users could do the work of integrating much of the information that would be spread across the wiki into one place so that it makes it much easier for you guys at GG to use the information.
UnrealWiki is an all in one strategy, all the .plan and discussion go into the wiki. I can see that GG would rather keep the structure they have now and add the wiki as an additional feature, so how about this type of structure:
Discussions such as questions and answers would be in the forums.
Resources and code snippets could be put up as draft on the wiki and bugs weeded out then posted in the relevant sections when they are stable.
.plans remain the same as always to see what people are up to.
One thing that i've notice with unrealwiki is that discussions on forums outside of it will come up with new ideas and the phrase "I'll add that to the wiki" gets used quite a lot. The simple ability to easily add to the information without having to get a webhost and write html is a major reason why people contribute, because it easy to do and as long as the information up there is good the standard is kept high from what I have seen over at unrealwiki.
At the moment the GG forums have a lot of information that would be useful but it is hidden between lots of questions and outdated information, the wiki could help uncover this info.
In the end I am not trying to say that it would be a walk in the park to set up a wiki but security wise wiki would be within the SDK owners section so compared to unrealwiki which is open to anyone the risk is not as big. If there are qorries about the moderation that you could ask the people over at unrealwiki about their experiences as that wiki is a wiki that really works.
They come for the engine, they stay for the documentation.
#38
03/09/2004 (9:05 am)
Hmm good point. We will have to wait what the dev's say about it. I found a wiki that claim to be easy integratable into existing php sites. Its called ErfurtWiki and resides on http://erfurtwiki.sourceforge.net/ .
#39
03/09/2004 (9:45 am)
In addition to wiki, there's another means of creating a more closely knit community... it's called Linked In, and is an Internet version of what people already do. i.e. You know someone who knows someone else who can do X. It's useful for creating teams as well as possibly marketing your game. Have a look... www.linkedin.com
#40
I would rather an external wiki not be established because it is inevitable that the site will vanish because the costs associated, waining interest, hosting/doamin changes, security problems, etc, etc.
I would however like to get a list of people interested in assisting to moderate a GG based wiki. Email me and I will add you to a list.
GarageGames.com eats up well over a terabyte of bandwidth every month and most of that traffic comes from our forums. I think the wiki could easily draw as much traffic... just another reason it needs to be hosted here and done right. The performance of most the wikis out there sucks, I have looked at a lot of wiki source code I have seen a few good ideas and a lot of really bad code. So far no install and go solution.
So when will it happen? ASAP. Here is what my extremely abbreviated to-do list looks like:
1) Update the shopping cart and back-end sales/accounting system to support shipment of physical items (ie t-shirts, on demand CD burning, on demand Printed Manuals, etc...). In progress.
2) Configure and deploy a new web server (to replace our little engine that could). This includes several behind the scenes site changes including upgrading to Apache2 and Gentoo.
3) Next revision of documentation should be ready to post. This is a big milestone all existing documentation will have been updated and ported to DocBook. the page count should be around the 250-350 mark (not including the 2000 pages of DOxygen code level does).
4) Configure and deploy an ad server for GarageGames (on new web server). No GG is not going to be covered with crappy external ads, but rather we want to use it to promote our own games on our site. Also gives us the ability to serve ads to affiliate and fan sites.
5) Then the big decision which to do first: the wiki or a blog. We have been wanting to move at least the GG Staff and possibly others to a more traditional dedicated blog format. Jeff, as with the rest of the GG team, are a fountain of information and we just need a way to get the word out. The .plans kinda work but they are buried on the site, no continuity, to categorization, each post is an island not a chain of thought and .plans are so 90's ;). As a result none of us post often enough. A blog would give each person a dedicated channel to get the message out, rss/atom feeds and discussion.
PS: Most of GG is on LinkedIn.
--Rick
03/09/2004 (10:21 am)
@Russel - thanks for jumping in, I totally agree with you on all points. I would rather an external wiki not be established because it is inevitable that the site will vanish because the costs associated, waining interest, hosting/doamin changes, security problems, etc, etc.
I would however like to get a list of people interested in assisting to moderate a GG based wiki. Email me and I will add you to a list.
GarageGames.com eats up well over a terabyte of bandwidth every month and most of that traffic comes from our forums. I think the wiki could easily draw as much traffic... just another reason it needs to be hosted here and done right. The performance of most the wikis out there sucks, I have looked at a lot of wiki source code I have seen a few good ideas and a lot of really bad code. So far no install and go solution.
So when will it happen? ASAP. Here is what my extremely abbreviated to-do list looks like:
1) Update the shopping cart and back-end sales/accounting system to support shipment of physical items (ie t-shirts, on demand CD burning, on demand Printed Manuals, etc...). In progress.
2) Configure and deploy a new web server (to replace our little engine that could). This includes several behind the scenes site changes including upgrading to Apache2 and Gentoo.
3) Next revision of documentation should be ready to post. This is a big milestone all existing documentation will have been updated and ported to DocBook. the page count should be around the 250-350 mark (not including the 2000 pages of DOxygen code level does).
4) Configure and deploy an ad server for GarageGames (on new web server). No GG is not going to be covered with crappy external ads, but rather we want to use it to promote our own games on our site. Also gives us the ability to serve ads to affiliate and fan sites.
5) Then the big decision which to do first: the wiki or a blog. We have been wanting to move at least the GG Staff and possibly others to a more traditional dedicated blog format. Jeff, as with the rest of the GG team, are a fountain of information and we just need a way to get the word out. The .plans kinda work but they are buried on the site, no continuity, to categorization, each post is an island not a chain of thought and .plans are so 90's ;). As a result none of us post often enough. A blog would give each person a dedicated channel to get the message out, rss/atom feeds and discussion.
PS: Most of GG is on LinkedIn.
--Rick
Torque Owner Mike Stoddart