Marble Blaster Juarezed

#61 WOW! HOW DID I MISS THIS?!?!?

Jeremy whats the deal? I'm usualy the one who fights controversial idealised views agaisnt the entire communit, next your gonna be going after my parking spot ;)

to jeremy and joe:
this all seems a little weird that each of you (jeremy and joe) cant see eye to eye a little better. First just to clear things up, I lean a little more towards Jeremies side, although you both make excelent points. Also Joe, your analogies were very flawed

Ok, from what I see you both seem to understand each other intelectualy, yet you both have trouble understanding each other emotionaly, and thats where your conflict is rooting from. Jeremy, you seem to understand that Joe has intelectualy decided that pirating in any form for any reason is wrong no matter what, but what you dont seem to realise is that this decision by him is backed by emotions. He's probably been burned by pirates in the past and feels cheated by them, also when his livelyhood and families future is put in jeopardy by these people, well you can understand why he takes such a firm position on the matter. You on the other hand have a secure job and your making games for personal reasons (as am I) and our emotion on this is more oriented towards pride in our creations and the desire to have people experience them. Personaly I agree with Jeff that people who pirate games wouldnt have bought it anyway (I know people who pirate games, even if they tried the demo and loved it, they wouldnt have gotten thinktanks unless they could pirate it... its just the way they are). Joe, I'm surprised you dont understand that Jeremy's opinion is backed by his feelings of pride in his work (and the fact that he doesnt rely on game sales to make a living). Each of you understand the others intelectual opinions, but you emotionaly reject them and will continue to emotionaly reject them. All of this is kinda sad, each of you love making games and work very hard at it. Neither of you meant to insult the other but by trying to defend your emotional opinions through an intelectual conversation you managed to hurt each others feelings. I understand both of your feelings and I know both of you guys from the forums (and your both great guys). Just because you dont agree doesnt mean one of you is wrong, you each make games for different reasons (which are both good reasons), and I wish you both the best, so lets please stop trying to explain why the other guys feelings are intelectualy wrong.

to everyone else:
what bugs me is everyones lack of understanding for Jeremy. People have really been attacking his charcter (moral values and maturity) when in my opinion his views show a lot of maturity. He hasnt been preaching warez or even saying its ok. All he's said (which is all true) is that warez is a fact of life, its going to happen and theres nothing you can do about it, you are completely powerless. Therefore you can sit around and piss and moan about how little shits are stealing food from your babies mouth. Or you can sit back and at least feel good that you've created something people like. Either way they are going to keep stealing your game, but theres no need to drag yourself through hell over it. In my opinion jeremy's shown a lot of maturity.


EDIT: note I have been up for a very long time and am very tired, I'm sorry if I forgot to mention something or phrased something badly and in some way insulted someone, since anything written on the topic of pirating in anyway is bound to somehow insult someone. Just figured I'd apologize for insulting you before you brought it up and reasure you that I really didnt mean to. If I phrased something badly in an insulting way then be rest asured that I wrote it with no malice towards you or your beliefs and in fact am just very tired and somewhat nonsensical. Lets all just stop the fighting, I bet everyone has bigger problems to worry about then this

#62

Quote:I am seeing GG turn into something ugly

Thats an insult to everyone in this community...

if you don't like it than by all means please leave! >:(
not trying to insult at all. i thinkthis conversation should be canceled immediatley!!! please Jeff!

#63 /me wishes for the ability to lock threads...

#64 There are plenty of people out there who would indeed play the game for free if they could copy it.

Make no mistake, if they would even spend the time to play it, they would pay for it if it couldn't be copied.

I think warezed stuff stinks. I'd take it as an insult, it's like that person is spitting in your face.

When you make a game you put hours/months/years of your life into it and if anyone wants to play more than the demo they should pay for it out of respect for your work.

Jeremy Tilton, you tried to look at the good side of things and I appreciate that. I ususally do the same, but seriously don't be flattered if someone warezes one of your games. You should have more respect for your time and effort than that, and so should any person who would warez your work.

That's only my opinion. If I make a free game, respect me by playing it and telling me you had fun. If I make a commercial game then show me that you respect my work with what I'm looking for in that instance ... money.

I've made more free games than I can count right now. All I ever wanted from those was a little recognition. However, there comes a point in your life where you want and deserve more than that.

#65 Warez is Badong.
Flames are Badong.
GG Forums have become Badong.
They should instead be goonabad.

#66 Ding Dong the witch is dead.

Which old witch?

The mean old witch.

LAlalalalala lalalala lalalalala

#67 COME HERE MY LITTLE PRETTY!!!! HEHEHE!!!!

#68 Eric, you are an excellent mediator! I think that you probably provided a very important piece to this puzzle as to why me and Joe couldn't seem to understand eachother even through exhaustive explanation. You are right, we are just coming from different worlds and have different motivations behind our convictions. I respect that, and certainly didn't mean to offend Joe. I'm not very good at expressing my thoughts methinks..but Eric summed it all up quite nicely.

I enter some of these discussions as if in a heated debate and I want everyone to know that I feel that debate is an excellent thing. You can get so much out on the floor through debate and you can really see other people's viewpoints. Issues like this will one day affect all of us. How it affects us is up to us. But the only way anyone can make an intelligent decision, or take a valid stance on any issue, they really need to be exposed to different views, and I think in the end, that is what threads like this do. To those people that say "I hate these kinds of threads" and "Let's not allow these types of threads" just don't read them. I feel that as a community, we need to discuss off-topic things every now and then..and we need to get in heated debates. We are all different and we need to acknowledge and respect that. I wanna know what makes all my collegues click. And I never take any of this personally. I don't form opinions about people here, I just learn more about them.

#69

Quote:To those people that say "I hate these kinds of threads" and "Let's not allow these types of threads" just don't read them.

So I should quit reading the GG forums completely.... Check.


And as a added note, I think you didnt understand joe cause he disagrees with you. Joe perfectly understood you but doesn't agree with you. He made one of the most politically correct posts I've ever seen and you still didn't seem to understand he gets what your talking about. Maybe try rereading this entire thing from the view of someone else besides yourself and you can see that.

Quote:I enter some of these discussions as if in a heated debate and I want everyone to know that I feel that debate is an excellent thing. You can get so much out on the floor through debate and you can really see other people's viewpoints. Issues like this will one day affect all of us. How it affects us is up to us. But the only way anyone can make an intelligent decision, or take a valid stance on any issue, they really need to be exposed to different views, and I think in the end, that is what threads like this do.

Another added note, I think debate on forums and IRC is completely useless and only hurts things. What did we gain from this thread? Honestly. We both know your opinion and you disagree.. that could have been covered in 2 posts as statements. You didn't change Joe's opinion, he obviously didn't change yours since you seem to think he doesnt even comprehend what your saying. So the conclusion I draw of what we learned from this thread (this is gonna sound like an insult to you but I do not really mean it as one) is that you have a hard time understand someone who shares a different opinion than yours. Is that the lesson we were suppose to learn? IMO, debates are only good in person.

Why not I'll add some more while I'm laying it out on the table. In the beginning of these forums they were good. People used them to post important information, to show off things, etc. Fast Forward to today and the Forums have become a hive of stereo types.

Stereotypical posts
1. Newbie looking for something. They are pointed to it. Generally 3-8 posts made.. it dies out.
2. A post that draws out the flaming in a lot of people here. Generally 60-120 posts.. it dies out after getting ugly and hurting someone.
3. Imformative post. These are what we should see. Generally 1-5 posts unless the thread author keeps them alive.
4. random spam. These do nothing but clutter up the forums and generally get 5-12 posts before dying.

It has gotten to the point (I read the forums everyday) that I can spot these stereo types soemtimes from the message header and the rest of the time from the message body. Now granted some of the flames take a few more posts to get going.. but I'm talking on average. I think stereo type 2 and 4 are harmful. They make me not want to read the forum. The only reason I still read it is I am not pissed off enough not too. I generally do skip 98% of the posts everyday and just read a few that look worthy of reading.

Basically what this is doing is weeding out all of the good people who like to help others get their games made and it calls in more trolls to feed on the flames. It's the cancer of communities and why most communities have moderators.
1.

#70 You people are hopeless. I attempted to change the flow of the thread and you just can't let it go.

#71 Apparently Tim didn't read my posts because every single post I said that I understood people's points and weren't discounting them as wrong, I was just trying to put another idea out on the table. I don't like being generalized as someone who argues just because someone doesn't see my point because that is never my intention. Sometimes I will take positions that I disagree with just to get discussion rolling. Don't claim to know me just because of my posts. I was surprised that one person in here actually came close to understanding what I'm all about just from my posts (Eric Risser). In the end, I think he's probably the most open minded person that posted on this thread, we could all learn a lot from him. He posted from both people's standpoints quite nicely and made me see Joe's side of things a little better. So if you feel this thread didn't accomplish anything Tim, I'm sorry, but I know I've learned quite a bit here.

Quote: "So I should quit reading the GG forums completely.... Check."

As an associate I'd expect you to not be so dismissive. Seems like you've given up on everything having to do with this forum.

Like I said, I don't see these kinds of threads as a bad thing. Some people will disagree, but can't they just ignore these posts then? I don't see what the problem is with that. Everyone makes it sound like if these threads weren't here that there'd be more "informative posts", as if this thread has taken the possibility of people posting to ask questions about the engine or something. I'm not "forcing my views", I'm not "shutting my mind off to people that don't understand" I'm simply stating that I don't see how this thread has taken value away from the forum. I can see why some people think it didn't add value, and that's fine, but someone explain to me how it has actually taken anything away from it, please..

#72 I did read your posts, yet you seem to think Joe doesn't get your point. Yet its obvious he does. You recognize that Eric got your point cause he agreed with you.

I do admit, I posted based on emotion. I personally think these forums are horrible. Like I said they are mostly flames and spam. Lots of people have quit reading them because of it, people who actually contributed good stuff to them before. Go someplace like the nebula chat room and ask about the GG forums. Some of the people there used to read them before they got rediculous. I know of 1 possible 2 others who are thinking about stopping reading the forums now. I even tried to resurrect some good discussion.. I posted some stuff about 2d game development and asked for feedback. I got a bit on my original posting, then I posted a revised version and no one commented on it. Yet I could have posted "I like downloading mp3s" and it would have had everyone coming out of the woodwork and gotten up close to 100 posts like this one has. This forum seems like a political forum instead of a game development forum. It should be renamed to GaragePolitics cause thats the majority of things discussed.

Being an associate it pains me to see what I see. I want to see GG to succeed but IMO they should delete the forums, the site would be a better impression for new visitors. (What I really think should happen is add some moderators to delete flames and the ability to close thread before they get out of hand. you may think OMG he wants to invade my rights, well these forums are a priveledge not a right, and a priveledge I may soon go without as well)

Quote:Like I said, I don't see these kinds of threads as a bad thing. Some people will disagree, but can't they just ignore these posts then? I don't see what the problem is with that. Everyone makes it sound like if these threads weren't here that there'd be more "informative posts", as if this thread has taken the possibility of people posting to ask questions about the engine or something. I'm not "forcing my views", I'm not "shutting my mind off to people that don't understand" I'm simply stating that I don't see how this thread has taken value away from the forum. I can see why some people think it didn't add value, and that's fine, but someone explain to me how it has actually taken anything away from it, please..

Actually you are hurting it by spamming with these types of threads. I check unread posts and see 536 new posts in 2 days. There might be 1-5 useful posts and the rest is spam and flaming.. guess what? I start reading and seeing spam and flames.. I click Mark read as all and close the browser. I'm not gonna wade through a bunch of crap to find 1 to 2 good posts. I know I am not the only one. Also "ignoring the flames" isn't as easy as you say. To ignore them is to read them first. Once youve read them it strikes a emotional response in you.. now if you have no connection with the topic or the people posting you can simply close it... but if you dont your gonna keep reading and get more and more pissed.

Here's some explanation. Lets say I've never been here but heard good things (or I havent heard anything) I've heard that GG is run by ex pro game developers and I think cool this place should be great. I get here and click through the posts. I see people arguing horribly over things, I see people posting spam that makes no sense, I see newbies asking questions and not getting responses yet I see TONS of people flaming. My opinion would be this place is just like any other forum online.. nothing special... Ill go back to flipcode or gamedev.net where there are some good programming posts.

Bickering is not good at all no matter if you sugar coat it and call it intellectual debate. Its still people getting upset and this happens so often that people leave cause it just stacks more and more anger.

#73 Hey, that all makes sense Tim. And I agree that if all a newbie sees is posts that they see as flame wars they may be turned off. But that is not solely the responsibility of people that post in these threads but rather the fault the community as a whole. Everyone has the right to post, and they have the right to choose where to post. You say that there is a lot of crap to wade through, which is probably true...and that makes it hard to find the posts of newbies asking questions and the like, but this is not a difficult problem to circumvent. Here's a few guidelines I've always lived by in every forum if I want to get straight to business:

-Ignore the "General Discussion" forums all together.

-Use titles to dictate if something is imporant (not full proof, but you'll eliminate atleast some of the "non-essentials")

-Ignore posts with replies of over 50...these are probably flame wars, debates or just plain ol' chatter.

But to be honest Tim, it isn't these threads that are cluttering up the forums. These threads that run 50+ posts don't come every day, and they usually draw the attention of the "non-essential posters" from posting elsewhere for atleast a little while. It is the numerous uninteresting posts with few responses that clutter things up. If you want proof, just look at the posts here. They are mostly all long posts. Anyone who wanted to post here had a lot to say. I can't say that it was all constructive (and even some of my posts weren't worded in a constructive manner) but you can't deny that this post held the interest of atleast some people (including yours). You always see the long drawn-out description of why off-topic posts are bad only on the threads that get long and heated...but what about the random chatter threads? I think those are just as vital to a community as these are..but some people don't. The only difference is because some people might get offended here. And if that is the case, I'm sorry, but I know several people out there can enter a forum with the maturity and open-mindedness not to let it get personal. Just because a conversation is happy doesn't mean it is constructive...and vice versa..

And FYI, I didn't just recognize Eric because he "took my side" because he actually pointed out some of my faults too...which I realized because of his post. I respected him for his approach of taking both sides which I was not doing. He brought something to my attention that I hadn't thought of on an issue that affects us all as game developers. If you don't see that as helpful atleast a little bit, I don't know what is...

#74 I generally use those same guidelines too but I miss things that are interesting I'm sure. I didn't say that flames are the only problem.. spam is a big problem.. people posting what they did today or something. The flames do less clutter but they still do damage.

I still think the best solution is moderation. Every community has it. Expecting GG to police itself isn't good specially now that it is more popular and get higher content of trolls and spams.

#75 (EDIT: Changed double post to response)

I can agree that it can get too heavy at times. People do need an outlet though. We can't always talk shop, and it seems like you agree to an extent. You would just like to see it more balanced, and I can understand that. I don't feel like this particular thread, however, is necessarily as bad as some of the ones that I've been privy too.

#76 Crikey,

This one seems to be brewing well. Could I change the flow for just a second, and ask a slightly off-topic question? Should you really not expect to earn an income from an independant game? Would Marble Blast not have earned this income for it's creator? I know this question cannot always be answered directly, but would Jeff/Jay/GG mind providing just a little insight on this?

I, for one, had hoped that being able to develop my game ideas with an engine such as Torque would lead to me working full time on said projects. I have 3 ideas at the moment, which I feel could all be developed in around 6 months, maybe a little more. The ideas, in terms of scale, would compare with something like Marble Blast or Orbz. I also have a strong belief that they would be popular games. Plus, with the new potential for sales through the eGames agreement (no comments on warez :-), surely GG titles are going to be even more popular?

Would these games truly not earn an income comparable to, say, a Web Developer? I was earning 25,000 GBP (41,232.74 USD) as an ASP developer, and expected even indie development to bring that kind of reward, given the right ideas and the chance to make them possible.

Kind Regards,

]DaZMaN[ YM Studios

#77 It all depends on you, if you become successful. There are developers making it, there are developers making millions, and there are others who quit after a couple of months after they release their game and see little money. The trick is too improve your game. There are some people making gobs of money off 1 game they keep improving. Improving is not just in making the game itself better but also in marketing.

I'd suggest taking a read at these:

www.dexterity.com/articles

The important things to note are it takes time to make money, and it takes work. Even if you make a fantastic game, if you don't work on getting it in front of people eyes you won't make any money. Read the article titled "Shareware Amateurs vs Shareware Professionals" it is very good and will probably answer a lot of your questions.

#78 @Tim: Good points though :-

(a) You need forums that are for torque owners only solely for the discussion of torque and game development (I know you've got them, but if they are full of flames and spam that's a bigger problem and if they aren't...)

(b) 50% of your business model is selling an engine license to people who have never written a game and never will. Telling them to shut up after they've paid at least doesn't lose you any money. Expecting them to talk about torque or game development before or after is ambitious. Rethink the license or accept the enjoy the higher number of $100's you get.

(c) The other 50% is selling games. As above, don't expect people buying or thinking about buying games who post to whet your intellectual game writers appetite, see (a)

(d) Part of what you're seeing here is on a small scale what the internet would be like without google. You'd switch off before you find what interested you.

@Darren: I've never seen a company coy about having high sales figures :) Read into that what you will - I wouldn't count on making money (or not) based upon the low or high sales of another game though. Potentially what I see on GG is positive, but that won't help a bad game nor one in a genre that's flooded with traditional big budget publishers and other independants.

#79 Thanks for the comments Tim and Michael, that's good stuff.

@Tim - I had a quick look at the site you mentioned, the documents on there look like they are well worth a read - I'd recommend others take a read too, if the business side will apply to you.

@Michael - I hear what you're saying about making assumptions based on other games successes. I have an idea I think will be quite successful, or at least quite popular. It's under way at the moment, and fingers crossed, it will be ready in 6 months time. I would hope at least that it will pay for the development of my next intended title, also essentially a popular title, again with a slim development time. I'll just have to wait and see...

@GG - Any comments guys? ;-)

Cheers,

]DaZMaN[ YM Studios

#80 @Michael: I think you might be a bit confused unless your not talking specifically about me. I don't work for GG, I dont get any money, I bought a license just like the other developers here. I have no affiliation with GG (The associate thing is just a title they gave to some people who helped people on the forums and helped with torque upgrades, etc) I see no money that GG gets, I'm just merely another customer.

I'm not even gonna address the points cause I'm tired of the sad song of this thread. I am done discussing.