What is the current status of Torque's sound system?

#1 Note:
OpenAL rocks man...

1.) Yes.
2.) Yes.
3.) Yes.
4.) see Above Note. (not to mention the status of OpenAL)
5.) No.

First read here:
linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2000/10/13/oa_openal.html there is some good data.
then add this to fav's :
www.openal.org/snapshots/openal/docs/oalspecs-specs/index.html

and then get to work. :)

Edit:
Not that i've tested it in Torque, but this is all feasible and support is there... so if it is not working then something is busted that needs to be fixed.

#2 If OpenAL is that good, why was there talk of replacing it in Torque?

#3 ...
I was not aware of such banter.
replace it with what?
dx? *snicker*

#4 Badguy, that article was written in the year 2000. That's 3 year old information. Since then, it seems like OpenAL has pretty much died (I heard something about the developers being absorbed by Epic or soemthing)

That's exactly what I am wondering Mike! Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

#5 exactly buds .. but lots of that stuff was done at That time.
there is admitedly some incompleteness to it but this is your best bet.
sure the article is old but the information there rings true today.

simply read the daily snapshot documentation of the api.

Also I will add that the API is Far from dead.
but being used in Lots of places.
and still maintained.

#6 Can you give me a link to some of those places perhaps? I didnt really find any when I searched...

#7 places where OpenAL is Used?
heh
www.americasarmy.com
which is using the unreal engine.

www.lokigames.com/products/heavy-gear2/
didnt play this game.
pixellent.stodge.net/cs_technical.htm
never seen this before now.(Edit: hehe didnt even notice it was a torque game... :)
lwn.net/2000/0907/a/simcity.php3
didnt know this either.

of course the ones I have seen I cannot recall...
it was not that important to me.

I dont know people dont really broadcast it most times.

you need to just pick up who is using it as you come across thier product mostly.
I know i've read many more but they escape me at this time.

Edit:
good meta tag's Mike :)

#8 Americas Army uses Unreal's engine, and the primary OpenAL developer now works for Epic (I think), so their version of OpenAL is apparently more recent than anyone else's. I'm writing that from memory, so I could be completely wrong!

#9 I meant links to places with up to date information about OpenAL... maybe some kind of OpenAL community with tutorials or something.

#10 Here's a thought: what did Tribes and Tribes2 use?

#11 In case you missed the news when GG had it on the front page check it out here. So yes openal is alive and well as far as I see.

#12 Tribes2 uses Miles Sound System . . . that is why it was ripped out.
Which is the most popular/complete/well supported Audio libraries around from what I can tell.

#13 Miles Sound System maybe the most popular, complete, and well supported Audio library around but it's also around $4,000 per platform. Yes you heard right you want windows support with Miles Sound System it's $4,000, then you want linux, there is another $4,000, and then mac would be another $4,000. It absurd to use Miles Sound System when working with a cross-platform product and pay the $12,000 when you can use OpenAL and other free or low cost Audio Libraries. Plus OpenAL has been been proven in many Mac, Linux, PC (Windows), and I'm sure some console games as well. So why bother with another Audio Library when OpenAL is proven. Ok so maybe development is a little slow with it but why should it matter the source code is free and open to anyone, meaning if you want to do something in it then you can do it. Yes there may have been talk of replacing OpenAL in Torque a while ago but why? What point would it serve? If you have the money for Miles Sound System from Rad then go ahead and get it but in my opinion I'd rather stick with OpenAL. Yes Tribes 2 may have used Miles Sound System for Windows but if you look at the Linux port it used OpenAL. And yes there may be glitches and bugs in OpenAL but I'm sure there are bugs and glitches in every Audio Library you try.

--Bryan

#14 why you don't include ogg & vorbis directly into HEAD Versions?

#15 ogg & vorbis are sound parsing libraries, they do the loading and streaming work, but the audio still goes through OpenAL. Anyway, there are plans to integrate ogg vorbis into Torque ... maybe 1.2?

#16 Why not look at the code that is with Realm Wars. It uses ogg sound files and works fine. It is also a community developed project.

#17 I know this is really really hard for a lot of you everything that is free is gold people to comprehend but $4000 US, even $12,000 US is NOT a lot of money for a commercial venture, if you compare the MAN hours at say $50 - $70 US an hour for a programmer, a well documented, proven, bug free, and actively supported library will pay for it self in just a few weeks of paying a programmer to hack around the bugs and limitations of something like OpenAL. And when you do encounter a bug, which with a library as mature as something like Miles, someone ELSE has to fix it.

$12,000 US is roughtly equal to 172 man hours, which is one person working a little more than 4 weeks, or two people working a little more than 2 weeks, you get the picture. Even the MOST TALENTED programmer(s) could not create a robust well documented audio library for a single platform in that short of amount of time.

So, $12,000 US for three platforms seems like a bargain to me! And if you consider the support costs for all the people that will be calling in because they have some obscure audio hardware or outdated driver bitching about crashes and lockups then it is even more of a bargain.

#18 There's also FMOD. I know at least one Torque developer dropped it in because he was frustrated with some of the Torque sound/music issues.

FMOD provides much more flexible licensing options than MSS, and offers hobbyist/shareware licenses. Or free for freeware.

#19 Simon :
the fmod license is insane.
Jarrod :
that response is insane.
to assume it would take you 4 weeks to employ OpenAL to a usable state is ridiculous.

as a programmer at work try telling your boss you think 4 weeks for sound is ok,
and that his choice is to purchase a 12,000 sound system.
insane, he will prolly hand you walking papers.
I deployed OpenAL here at work ..
in about an hour and a half..
we didnt need all the features.
but what we do need is in working fine.

putting that up against some serious ass license is funny.
the bottum line is this is not a big project tho.
and even if it was OpenAL would still pay far better than Fmod or miles or the other big money stuff.

#20 Badguy, don't oversell OpenAL. It's great, but it's far more specialized than FMOD or MSS. If all I wanted was positional sound effects, sure, OpenAL would be a top choice, but if I also wanted other things such as better basic 2D sound support, better music support (playing and file format handling) and synching, I'd be looking at FMOD.

I wouldn't ever be looking at Miles because I think it - and all the other RAD libs - are out of the price range for most small-timers. From that perspective, yes, the MSS license fee *is* insane.

But I don't think $100 for a shareware FMOD license is insane, and shelling out $3000 for a single-title Windows/Mac/Linux license wouldn't be too hard if you were selling enough copies to warrant the commercial license. Heck, it'd be $9000 for unlimited titles on all three platforms, which is great compared to MSS.

I'm just saying don't discount alternatives just because OpenAL is good for some things.

Incidentally, where's the download for the Linux OpenAL SDK on the Creative developer site? Or is it only available via CVS?