Reasons Why Torque 3D is better than Unreal UDK (FOR ME)
by John E. Nelson · in General Discussion · 12/18/2009 (12:43 am) · 36 replies
There are some important reasons Why Torque 3D is better than Unreal.
Here is one of them!
Now Epic has released the Unreal engine in a "free" development kit (UDK), but is it really free?
No, not if you plan on selling your game ever! Any in business to develop and sell a game should be wary of the lure of the UDK.
Here is a few lines from the licensing. Basically you pay $99, and if you make under 5,000 you don't pay anything else but if you make over $5,000 then thats when you pay 25% royalty. Ouch!
If you are creating a game or commercial application using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a game or application, the per-seat option does not apply. Instead the license terms for this arrangement are US $99 (Ninety Nine US Dollars) up-front, and a 0% royalty on you or your company's first $5,000 (US) in UDK related revenue, and a 25% royalty on UDK related revenue above $5,000 (US). UDK related revenue includes, but is not limited to, monies earned from: sales, services, training, advertisements, sponsorships, endorsements, memberships, subscription fees, rentals and pay-to-play.
Here is one of them!
Now Epic has released the Unreal engine in a "free" development kit (UDK), but is it really free?
No, not if you plan on selling your game ever! Any in business to develop and sell a game should be wary of the lure of the UDK.
Here is a few lines from the licensing. Basically you pay $99, and if you make under 5,000 you don't pay anything else but if you make over $5,000 then thats when you pay 25% royalty. Ouch!
If you are creating a game or commercial application using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a game or application, the per-seat option does not apply. Instead the license terms for this arrangement are US $99 (Ninety Nine US Dollars) up-front, and a 0% royalty on you or your company's first $5,000 (US) in UDK related revenue, and a 25% royalty on UDK related revenue above $5,000 (US). UDK related revenue includes, but is not limited to, monies earned from: sales, services, training, advertisements, sponsorships, endorsements, memberships, subscription fees, rentals and pay-to-play.
About the author
An experienced producer of interactive media and games going back to the 90's.
#22
12/19/2009 (7:42 pm)
@Black Tengu - Quite the contrary. It was stated early on to stay on topic. This topic is "Why Torque 3D is better than UDK for a user", not "UDK is better because of _____". No one claimed you are a troll. We are hearing from Torque 3D users who have shelled out decent money for the engine and posting their positive remarks. Fanboyism is defined by blind defense for a product while spewing vitriol toward competitors. That's not happening here. 
#23
12/19/2009 (9:51 pm)
So pointing out an advantage one product has over another is a reason to delete a post? So do you honestly think Torque3D is as good as an engine from top to bottom as Unreal 3? I'm just trying to be honest here. Like I pointed out earlier, UDK's 25% with no publishing options sucks. So from a licensing perspective, Torque3D owns. From strictly a tool perspective, Unreal is head and shoulders above Torque3D. 
#24
12/19/2009 (10:21 pm)
The point is the tread is about why T3D is better for some reason. Like it or not, this isn't a compare-and-contrast thread. I don't think outright deleting your post was a great way to handle it, but...
#25
forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?p=26975120&highlight=garage+games#post26...
12/19/2009 (10:44 pm)
The answer to the question, "Do people talk about Torque 3D on the UDK forums?", and the answer is yes.forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?p=26975120&highlight=garage+games#post26...
#26
12/20/2009 (2:22 am)
if you want to pay rent on your successful game, then UDK is great. you will never own it unless you make enough money to buy the full license. when i see an mmo made with UDK then i will make a fair comparision to Torque 3D, right now there is no comparision, T3D FTW.
#27
12/20/2009 (3:17 am)
How many AAA quality MMOs have you seen with Torque3D?
#28
MMO's focus on quantity over quality. if you remove the other players from an mmo your left with a very poorly balanced rpg with even worse pacing.
mmo is not a genre. it's a variation.
personally i find unreal ed to be confusing. the movement system seems to be legacy of a time before 3d interfaces. i couldn't achieve much of anything when i tried. at the time i was comparing to leadwerks. but i believe torque's leagues ahead of leadwerks in art tools, and leadwerks toolset made more sense to me than unreal ed did.
i haven't used the UDK, i was trying out UT3's editor. i did like two of their view modes though.
pixel density
shader complexity
i thought those two view modes were excellent tools, one for judging how much pixel stretching was happening, the other of course highlighting how long areas were taking to draw. if you've got to optimise a scene, knowing what exactly is visually expensive would be fantastically usefull.
12/20/2009 (3:41 am)
i'm yet to see any AAA mmo's, ever, AAA to me implies industry standard level of gameplay. MMO's focus on quantity over quality. if you remove the other players from an mmo your left with a very poorly balanced rpg with even worse pacing.
mmo is not a genre. it's a variation.
personally i find unreal ed to be confusing. the movement system seems to be legacy of a time before 3d interfaces. i couldn't achieve much of anything when i tried. at the time i was comparing to leadwerks. but i believe torque's leagues ahead of leadwerks in art tools, and leadwerks toolset made more sense to me than unreal ed did.
i haven't used the UDK, i was trying out UT3's editor. i did like two of their view modes though.
pixel density
shader complexity
i thought those two view modes were excellent tools, one for judging how much pixel stretching was happening, the other of course highlighting how long areas were taking to draw. if you've got to optimise a scene, knowing what exactly is visually expensive would be fantastically usefull.
#29
LoL, they closed that thread as "comparison threads" are banned.
Big Boy companies don't put up with that sort of crap which does not solely promote them. There - like here, is a financial business, not an interwebz hippy free for all.
12/20/2009 (11:26 am)
@JohnLoL, they closed that thread as "comparison threads" are banned.
Quote:Please refrain from discussions not pertaining to our games or company.
Big Boy companies don't put up with that sort of crap which does not solely promote them. There - like here, is a financial business, not an interwebz hippy free for all.
#30
Personally speaking for me what's great about Torque3D is the ability as an artist to rapidly build and prototype quickly and easily. The visuals that it produces out of the box are AAA quality and when combined with a fantastic lightmapping tool like pureLight I have the ability to meet or exceed anything AAA studios (that are UE3 licensees can produce) with the exception of mass content production due to our budget size.
Is Torque3D 100% better than UE3/UDK, no, but then again UE3/UDK isnt 100% better either. It all depends on your needs. As a professional developer whose livelyhood depends on producing quality work on a tight budget a tool such as Torque3D works wonders and allows us to continue to work as full time game developers. Small inviestment + good quality tools + no fees extra fees for game revenue = sustainability as a developer.
12/20/2009 (4:22 pm)
I think Tom Spilman summed it up really well enough from a high level standpoint for me. UDK is a great engine, certainly well worth referring and being somewhat familiar with to keep ones options open and to be quite honest it is going to allow Epic to continue to corner the AAA published games market for years (sorry Unity3D but you're so hosed), but as someone that wants to succeed as a AA to AAA game developer it really isn't a solution for me. (Max Gaming is not what many of you will use when you use the term "indie" we are a full time studio of developers making both original IP and contract games, hence we are "AA to AAA indie")Personally speaking for me what's great about Torque3D is the ability as an artist to rapidly build and prototype quickly and easily. The visuals that it produces out of the box are AAA quality and when combined with a fantastic lightmapping tool like pureLight I have the ability to meet or exceed anything AAA studios (that are UE3 licensees can produce) with the exception of mass content production due to our budget size.
Is Torque3D 100% better than UE3/UDK, no, but then again UE3/UDK isnt 100% better either. It all depends on your needs. As a professional developer whose livelyhood depends on producing quality work on a tight budget a tool such as Torque3D works wonders and allows us to continue to work as full time game developers. Small inviestment + good quality tools + no fees extra fees for game revenue = sustainability as a developer.
#31
"How many AAA quality MMOs have you seen with Torque3D?"
Right now one with Torque 3D, http://www.torquepowered.com/community/blogs/view/18933
and a handful with TGEA and TGE. How many do you see?
12/21/2009 (12:24 am)
@Black Tengu "How many AAA quality MMOs have you seen with Torque3D?"
Right now one with Torque 3D, http://www.torquepowered.com/community/blogs/view/18933
and a handful with TGEA and TGE. How many do you see?
#32
The most well known MMO with Torque is Minions of Mirth, which is nice but far from AAA.
12/21/2009 (12:44 am)
@Stadi - No offense, but those are a few pictures of terrain of something that isn't even released. Out of curiosity, do you understand what AAA means? AAA would be games like World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Aion, Everquest, etc.The most well known MMO with Torque is Minions of Mirth, which is nice but far from AAA.
#33
The goal was to make a fun indie styled MMO and figure out the production and running of such a beast, inventing a bunch of technology and vocabulary in doing so... it wasn't easy at the time, and things are WAY different and far better for indie developers now. I have been thinking a lot about "Social Gaming" which is a very interesting development for indie game developers... especially in terms of getting the word out and monetizing your titles.
If your goal is to work on AAA games as a cog in a wheel you have very little control of... maybe getting your chops down with the UDK is a good choice. Otherwise, there are far better licenses and technology to work with as a professional indie developer... and, btw, Torque was really great to work with while developing our last MMO type game :)
12/21/2009 (1:46 am)
Hey, I made Minions of Mirth, glad you consider it nice :) For the record, we were aware the entire time that it wasn't "AAA". Before developing it, there were plenty of opportunities to work on "AAA" games... that isn't everyone's plan.The goal was to make a fun indie styled MMO and figure out the production and running of such a beast, inventing a bunch of technology and vocabulary in doing so... it wasn't easy at the time, and things are WAY different and far better for indie developers now. I have been thinking a lot about "Social Gaming" which is a very interesting development for indie game developers... especially in terms of getting the word out and monetizing your titles.
If your goal is to work on AAA games as a cog in a wheel you have very little control of... maybe getting your chops down with the UDK is a good choice. Otherwise, there are far better licenses and technology to work with as a professional indie developer... and, btw, Torque was really great to work with while developing our last MMO type game :)
#34
12/21/2009 (1:50 am)
@Josh - I have been meaning to buy Minions of Mirth for some time. The one problem, how would I balance my time between game dev, Left 4 Dead 2, Borderlands, and Bioshock 2 (soon)? I may just end up purchasing it soon though.
#35
far from a few pictures, please look at the previous Repopulation blogs at the bottom of the page when you get a chance. The game is very complete. This game has been in production for years. It will be a triple A title once it is finished as all the gameplay and graphics are nearing triple A. Please sign up for beta and let them know what can be improved @ therepopulation.com
12/21/2009 (2:15 am)
@ Black Tengu,far from a few pictures, please look at the previous Repopulation blogs at the bottom of the page when you get a chance. The game is very complete. This game has been in production for years. It will be a triple A title once it is finished as all the gameplay and graphics are nearing triple A. Please sign up for beta and let them know what can be improved @ therepopulation.com
#36
The Unreal 3 license for big developers was $500,000 per game, for a single platform. I remember a special they were running for a studio license for unlimited titles, and platforms for $1,750,000.
They had to stop it since they had too many people lining up to buy it.
Those budgets are no where near what we do.
12/21/2009 (12:48 pm)
I really started this to mention the financial aspects of the comparison for small developers.The Unreal 3 license for big developers was $500,000 per game, for a single platform. I remember a special they were running for a studio license for unlimited titles, and platforms for $1,750,000.
They had to stop it since they had too many people lining up to buy it.
Those budgets are no where near what we do.
#37
How much Big Boy Engine Source Code could I get for my current dev expenditure of $5112.22 over the last 2.5 years?
Actually, only 11 hundred dollars of that's gone GG's way. Most of my costs are utility bills.
But should I eventually ship, I'll get tax cash back from "The Man".
12/21/2009 (1:23 pm)
Quote:
The Unreal 3 license for big developers was $500,000 per game, for a single platform. I remember a special they were running for a studio license for unlimited titles, and platforms for $1,750,000.
How much Big Boy Engine Source Code could I get for my current dev expenditure of $5112.22 over the last 2.5 years?
Actually, only 11 hundred dollars of that's gone GG's way. Most of my costs are utility bills.
But should I eventually ship, I'll get tax cash back from "The Man".
Torque 3D Owner Dark Tengu