Could Garage produce a Total war / Empre building type game?
by Grant D · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 12/06/2009 (8:59 pm) · 18 replies
Ok, I'm an oldish war gamer, have some money and want to develop a war game like Total war but with Empire building aspects. Could any garage engine do this? I don't want to hear any sales splurge from a spin-doctor, just point me any previous game developed in a garage game engine similar to what I want.
Main points I'm looking for;
(1) Large / detailed maps - ie detailed map of central Italy where you could zoom in on Rome and see the seven hills.
(2) multiplayer - max about 6 players
(3) many quality soldiers on screen at once - LOD can be low (more sprites to meshes) but the engine would need to be able to create(?)/load quality meshes easily and create sprites from that mesh. The engine would also need to have / easily include warrior animations - stab, fire bow, thrust spear etc etc etc
(4) Easy Terrain mesh deforming (alter terrain) - add roads, dig ditches etc
Even though I have many years of programming experience, I have left that behind, I want to concentrate my effort of game design, not programming, so am looking for an engine to do most of the work.
Thanks.
G.
Main points I'm looking for;
(1) Large / detailed maps - ie detailed map of central Italy where you could zoom in on Rome and see the seven hills.
(2) multiplayer - max about 6 players
(3) many quality soldiers on screen at once - LOD can be low (more sprites to meshes) but the engine would need to be able to create(?)/load quality meshes easily and create sprites from that mesh. The engine would also need to have / easily include warrior animations - stab, fire bow, thrust spear etc etc etc
(4) Easy Terrain mesh deforming (alter terrain) - add roads, dig ditches etc
Even though I have many years of programming experience, I have left that behind, I want to concentrate my effort of game design, not programming, so am looking for an engine to do most of the work.
Thanks.
G.
About the author
12 years IT development in the finance / insurance Industry. Hobbies : war gaming, computer gaming.
#2
I'm willing to pay up to $10,000 for a professional developemnt tool but this is obviously not it.
PS, Are you saying this engine can cnvert google topographical Maps to height maps? that would be a great feature!
12/06/2009 (9:53 pm)
Yeh, you'e right, looks another game engine to make kiddy ZAP - BANG games. Pity, most game engines have this flaw, designed with one genre in mind.I'm willing to pay up to $10,000 for a professional developemnt tool but this is obviously not it.
PS, Are you saying this engine can cnvert google topographical Maps to height maps? that would be a great feature!
#3
i second that, a game engine is a framework, so you need a lot of work to make the game that you want...
If you buy visual studio, and drop some objects in a windows form, visual studio make the software for you?...
but torque can?, yes, sure...
12/06/2009 (9:54 pm)
Quote:Look buddy, an engine isn't a "Drop your objects in and here is your game!".
i second that, a game engine is a framework, so you need a lot of work to make the game that you want...
If you buy visual studio, and drop some objects in a windows form, visual studio make the software for you?...
but torque can?, yes, sure...
#4
Pal, no one good commercial game engine are for strategy games..., so you need to tweak the engine for the game mechanics that you wants.
but you can start your game easily with the RTS example or the RPG isometric Kit, o RPG resources.
12/06/2009 (9:58 pm)
Quote:Yeh, you'e right, looks another game engine to make kiddy ZAP - BANG games. Pity, most game engines have this flaw, designed with one genre in mind.
Pal, no one good commercial game engine are for strategy games..., so you need to tweak the engine for the game mechanics that you wants.
but you can start your game easily with the RTS example or the RPG isometric Kit, o RPG resources.
#5
In it's current state, it can make an fps or racing game out of the box. Most, if not all the other types takes a little modification to the engine to accomplish. You'll find that every engine sold will need modifying to make your specific game.
12/06/2009 (10:02 pm)
Quote:designed with one genre in mind.Torque 3D was designed with several different genres in mind.
In it's current state, it can make an fps or racing game out of the box. Most, if not all the other types takes a little modification to the engine to accomplish. You'll find that every engine sold will need modifying to make your specific game.
Quote:I'm willing to pay up to $10,000 for a professional developemnt tool but this is obviously not it.Here I'll disagree with you. Torque 3D IS a professional engine, but it only costs $1000.00
Quote:PS, Are you saying this engine can cnvert google topographical Maps to height maps? that would be a great featureNope. Torque can't convert googles maps. There are tools out there that can tho. Torque is a game engine. Not a convertor.
#6
2. Yes, apparently Torque networking is quite good (used in GodFather2 I believe by EA).
3. If you make them you can have them.
4. There are stock tools for altering terrain shape etc, apparently licenseable for distribution, but you'd probably want to script a custom tool for this sort of very specific thing.
Google Earth -> SRTM Overlay (thanks US Navy) -> MircoDem -> Greyscale Heightmap
Info on how to get a greyscale heightmap from google earth then just import it.
12/06/2009 (10:06 pm)
1. Yes, you'll have to script the camera for these sort of specifics.2. Yes, apparently Torque networking is quite good (used in GodFather2 I believe by EA).
3. If you make them you can have them.
4. There are stock tools for altering terrain shape etc, apparently licenseable for distribution, but you'd probably want to script a custom tool for this sort of very specific thing.
Quote:
Are you saying this engine can cnvert google topographical Maps to height maps?
Google Earth -> SRTM Overlay (thanks US Navy) -> MircoDem -> Greyscale Heightmap
Info on how to get a greyscale heightmap from google earth then just import it.
#7
2) The networking for Torque was also used for Auto Assault, which was an MMO, so it could probably handle six people in an RTS ;)
3) If you want quality on screen, you need to use LODs on them. You can billboard low-LODs, but you really don't need to if you do low-poly (and if you want billboarding with that much animation, then you'll probably have to do some coding).
4) For an editor, it's in there. For part of the game, there are community resources that have been worked on that I think are available, but you'll have to work on that to make sure it's networked.
If you can't find variety in this list, then you won't find it on any.
12/06/2009 (10:37 pm)
1) You'll need to do some kind of LOD stuff with that.2) The networking for Torque was also used for Auto Assault, which was an MMO, so it could probably handle six people in an RTS ;)
3) If you want quality on screen, you need to use LODs on them. You can billboard low-LODs, but you really don't need to if you do low-poly (and if you want billboarding with that much animation, then you'll probably have to do some coding).
4) For an editor, it's in there. For part of the game, there are community resources that have been worked on that I think are available, but you'll have to work on that to make sure it's networked.
Quote:Yeh, you'e right, looks another game engine to make kiddy ZAP - BANG games. Pity, most game engines have this flaw, designed with one genre in mind.
If you can't find variety in this list, then you won't find it on any.
#8
2. Easily. You could have six players controlling hundreds of units (most likely AIPlayers being give directions). You can start development and testing out of the box with networking enabled.
3. Stock Torque 3D handles this. You can create multiple LODs, the last being an actual billboard for when you are really zoomed out. The animations you described are specific, but just animations in the end. The engine can handle animations, and you can piece them together very easily using the Shape Editor
4. This is a little trickier. Adding roads (decal or mesh) is available out of the box. Terrain deformation happens in the editor, but as a game play function it is not a stock feature. As Ted said, there are community resources for legacy Torque engines that provide terrain deformation. I believe one even had pseudo-networking support. With source code access, available with the Professional license, this would not be the most difficult task to accomplish.
With the exception of the terrain deformation, you can perform a vast majority of your game's design via the editors and script. It sounds like most of your time will be put into asset creation, unit management, and some AI work...all of which can be scripted. Not exactly the easiest game type to create, but game development will never be easy. Using a game engine, such as Torque 3D, will give you a huge head start though.
12/06/2009 (11:05 pm)
1. Yes. Especially if you use L3DT to sculpt your terrain. The tool can even import geo-data maps from satellite imaging websites, so if you can find satellite imagery for Italy, you can import it into L3DT and export it to Torque 3D format.2. Easily. You could have six players controlling hundreds of units (most likely AIPlayers being give directions). You can start development and testing out of the box with networking enabled.
3. Stock Torque 3D handles this. You can create multiple LODs, the last being an actual billboard for when you are really zoomed out. The animations you described are specific, but just animations in the end. The engine can handle animations, and you can piece them together very easily using the Shape Editor
4. This is a little trickier. Adding roads (decal or mesh) is available out of the box. Terrain deformation happens in the editor, but as a game play function it is not a stock feature. As Ted said, there are community resources for legacy Torque engines that provide terrain deformation. I believe one even had pseudo-networking support. With source code access, available with the Professional license, this would not be the most difficult task to accomplish.
With the exception of the terrain deformation, you can perform a vast majority of your game's design via the editors and script. It sounds like most of your time will be put into asset creation, unit management, and some AI work...all of which can be scripted. Not exactly the easiest game type to create, but game development will never be easy. Using a game engine, such as Torque 3D, will give you a huge head start though.
#9
Torque seems higher level but would still leave me most of the programming work, I want a 4G langauge that simply drops desired component into the game with a maximum of about 20% programming / scripting work to bring it all together. Everything I want - LOD maps, menus, LOD meshes (sprites), Animations, AI etc etc aren't cutting edge and could be available via component game development.
I'm too old to waste many, many hours programming ... I want to waste my time on game design! :)
Here's a screen shot of my old game (blitz basic) -
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee141/blackgold888/FieldsOfMarsSample.jpg
12/07/2009 (6:13 am)
In the past I've wasted many hours trying to develop my game in BlitzBasic, best that was available at the time for the money, but it's far too low level a language (I love "C" but I'm not going to develop such a large game project in any low level language)Torque seems higher level but would still leave me most of the programming work, I want a 4G langauge that simply drops desired component into the game with a maximum of about 20% programming / scripting work to bring it all together. Everything I want - LOD maps, menus, LOD meshes (sprites), Animations, AI etc etc aren't cutting edge and could be available via component game development.
I'm too old to waste many, many hours programming ... I want to waste my time on game design! :)
Here's a screen shot of my old game (blitz basic) -
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee141/blackgold888/FieldsOfMarsSample.jpg
#10
With torque, as has already been stated, there are addon packs. Some for purchase, some for free that extend the functionality of torque. Most of the addons are for previous engines and would take a little work to get them working in T3D, but if you know C++, the work may be trivial.
12/07/2009 (7:08 am)
Quote: I want a 4G langauge that simply drops desired component into the game with a maximum of about 20% programming / scripting work to bring it all together.That would be nice, but I don't think you are going to find one.
With torque, as has already been stated, there are addon packs. Some for purchase, some for free that extend the functionality of torque. Most of the addons are for previous engines and would take a little work to get them working in T3D, but if you know C++, the work may be trivial.
#11
Then I would download T3D TGE and the RTS kit, and read through all the code in TGE and the RTS kit.
Then I would recode the features added into the RTS kit to be compatable with the T3D engine.
Once that is all done, scripting new unit types should be breeze and you can focus on the core aspects of you game mechanics, like walls and siege weapons, or whatever you would put in a game like the one you plan to make.
12/07/2009 (7:42 am)
If you have programming experience, what i would do is buy T3D and buy the RTS kit for TGE.Then I would download T3D TGE and the RTS kit, and read through all the code in TGE and the RTS kit.
Then I would recode the features added into the RTS kit to be compatable with the T3D engine.
Once that is all done, scripting new unit types should be breeze and you can focus on the core aspects of you game mechanics, like walls and siege weapons, or whatever you would put in a game like the one you plan to make.
#12
As for commercial game engines, Torque 3D, UDK, Gamebryo, Unity, and so on all have some kind of scripting language available. For the base features you want, Torque 3D will give you furthest head start but you will still have to write TorqueScript to get your game play going.
12/07/2009 (12:52 pm)
@Grant D - I hear what you are saying, but unfortunately you will not find a game engine that can simply drag and drop RTS. There are a few open source RTS games available, but to get the features you want you will still have to write C++.As for commercial game engines, Torque 3D, UDK, Gamebryo, Unity, and so on all have some kind of scripting language available. For the base features you want, Torque 3D will give you furthest head start but you will still have to write TorqueScript to get your game play going.
#13
Like I said before, there is NO such thing as a game engine where you "Drag and drop! Here is your game!".
Programming would be considered the biggest part of making a game, and you won't be able to get by on "20% programming / scripting", especially when most games are between 99% and 100%.
12/07/2009 (5:22 pm)
Quote:Torque seems higher level but would still leave me most of the programming work, I want a 4G langauge that simply drops desired component into the game with a maximum of about 20% programming / scripting work to bring it all together. Everything I want - LOD maps, menus, LOD meshes (sprites), Animations, AI etc etc aren't cutting edge and could be available via component game development.
Like I said before, there is NO such thing as a game engine where you "Drag and drop! Here is your game!".
Programming would be considered the biggest part of making a game, and you won't be able to get by on "20% programming / scripting", especially when most games are between 99% and 100%.
#14
If you want to make a game like Total War, you are going to have to put a team together and work on it solidly for a long time.
12/07/2009 (5:36 pm)
Yes just like everyone else has stated... programming is a must (unfortunately) If you want something a little easier, try a program like gamemaker 7. You can still build a fun game, and it requires little to no programming. However your game would look a little less generic than what torque has to offer.If you want to make a game like Total War, you are going to have to put a team together and work on it solidly for a long time.
#16
For example, we ripped out the networking from TGEA and replaced it with something similar to the Age of Empire's one to be able to support an enormous amount of units over the network.
Another concept we prototyped was a turn based physics game (somewhat like a crazy Jenga) anyone could interact with anything and then the updates would be pushed to the other clients as each turn progressed (there was about a 2 second delay, which was acceptable for the game we were prototyping).
Torque gives you the ability to do things like this, it doesn't come with those features out of the box but it gives you the tools and the foundation to implement pretty much anything.
So yes you do need access to the low level stuff if you want to implement what you listed in your features. If just wanted to use the script and leverage the higher level stuff, you most definitely can and you can probably take your game very far. Lots of what's on your list can be done just in script, but not all of it.
That said, I think the engine changes you are looking for aren't too complex and with your experience you should be able to do it with minimal time and effort. The really hard stuff has already been done for you. Once you've done that you can spend all your time just making maps, menus, and working on gameplay :-)
12/09/2009 (2:49 am)
It's definitely possible to do everything you're looking for. It will take some investment of your time and effort. For example, we ripped out the networking from TGEA and replaced it with something similar to the Age of Empire's one to be able to support an enormous amount of units over the network.
Another concept we prototyped was a turn based physics game (somewhat like a crazy Jenga) anyone could interact with anything and then the updates would be pushed to the other clients as each turn progressed (there was about a 2 second delay, which was acceptable for the game we were prototyping).
Torque gives you the ability to do things like this, it doesn't come with those features out of the box but it gives you the tools and the foundation to implement pretty much anything.
So yes you do need access to the low level stuff if you want to implement what you listed in your features. If just wanted to use the script and leverage the higher level stuff, you most definitely can and you can probably take your game very far. Lots of what's on your list can be done just in script, but not all of it.
That said, I think the engine changes you are looking for aren't too complex and with your experience you should be able to do it with minimal time and effort. The really hard stuff has already been done for you. Once you've done that you can spend all your time just making maps, menus, and working on gameplay :-)
#17
Torque 3D has an auto-billboarding (aka imposter capture) feature that allows to do that and automatically create billboards for stand-ins when the model takes little actual screen-space.
Still, doesn't sound like Torque 3D is quite what you're looking for.
12/09/2009 (4:44 am)
Quote:(3) many quality soldiers on screen at once - LOD can be low (more sprites to meshes) but the engine would need to be able to create(?)/load quality meshes easily and create sprites from that mesh.
Torque 3D has an auto-billboarding (aka imposter capture) feature that allows to do that and automatically create billboards for stand-ins when the model takes little actual screen-space.
Still, doesn't sound like Torque 3D is quite what you're looking for.
#18
When you design a feature it has to be implemented, either via script or code. When you create a module, someone has to code that module. Unless you go and mod Total War, there will be no engine that has Total War mode with drag and drop modules of everything they could imagine anyone would want to implement.
12/09/2009 (4:42 pm)
If Programming/Scripting is only 20%, and you are speaking as if you have the art assets already, I'm not quite sure what you plan to spend 80% of your time on.When you design a feature it has to be implemented, either via script or code. When you create a module, someone has to code that module. Unless you go and mod Total War, there will be no engine that has Total War mode with drag and drop modules of everything they could imagine anyone would want to implement.
#19
12/21/2009 (2:04 pm)
If you have a $10,000 budget, consider buying T3D (or any cheap engine) and contract people to integrate the functionality you want into the editor? You could make your own "drag drop" engine. The other bonus to this is that you'll have to spend a lot of time designing the game before getting into the engine so that you know what features etc. you will need.
Torque Owner Tyler Slabinski
Look buddy, an engine isn't a "Drop your objects in and here is your game!". Chances are, you won't find your perfect engine built specifically for your game idea. Otherwise you may want to start programming your own engine. There is not any engine that will include all 4 of those that I have ever heard of before. Especially #3.
Though T3D can manage #1, 2, and 4.
1. You can make maps as detailed as you want, T3D will divide the map into multiple parts and load them when they become in your vision. You can make maps that have unlimited size from this.
2. T3D has one of the best networking in the world, and can host an unlimited amount of players (theoretically). I think you should find that this will most likely be the easiest part of your game.
3. T3D can load many soldiers on the screen at once, but it can't make sprites out of them (I never heard of an engine that can do that). Also, you won't find built in animations that will suit everything you will need, but it is very easy to implement with most art tools.
4. I am not very experienced with T3D as I have only used the demo, but you can import heightmaps from any other terrain mapping application and use the built in terrain editor to do whatever you need.