Unreal Dev Kit free for non-commercial use.
by Paul Mason · in General Discussion · 11/05/2009 (11:56 am) · 76 replies
Something nice to play with, and the 25% royalty on sales above $5000 isn't that bad....
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25955
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25955
#22
AI in the terms of Navmesh and event driven actions.
Most games have some form of AI, not just FPS.
I meant something like event driven actions.
i.e. Behaviours with multiple conditions for triggering, then based on the trigger, run some action/script/code.
That basic framework would allow versatility for many applications of AI.
Wish I had the time to complete and update my 5 year old AI project : )
Basic Behaviour Tree structure + NavMesh would pull up the one missing piece to round the new T3D out....IMO anyway.
11/06/2009 (12:46 am)
@SteveAI in the terms of Navmesh and event driven actions.
Most games have some form of AI, not just FPS.
I meant something like event driven actions.
i.e. Behaviours with multiple conditions for triggering, then based on the trigger, run some action/script/code.
That basic framework would allow versatility for many applications of AI.
Wish I had the time to complete and update my 5 year old AI project : )
Basic Behaviour Tree structure + NavMesh would pull up the one missing piece to round the new T3D out....IMO anyway.
#24
11/06/2009 (4:51 am)
lol...wow :) 
#25
pity as GG were gonna release an artist version,showed they
were at least listening.
brwett you shoulda released that artist version 2 weeks ago mate :P
11/06/2009 (4:56 am)
pretty much a death knell for unity and torque then,pity as GG were gonna release an artist version,showed they
were at least listening.
brwett you shoulda released that artist version 2 weeks ago mate :P
#26
11/06/2009 (5:18 am)
@jojimbo: re: UDK, no iphone / web / wii / mac distribution for you then? no source code? last-gen lighting technology? 25% royalties? I might be crazy, but I think we just saw UT3 mod tools repackaged as UDK w/ a murky, very limiting license. 
#27
11/06/2009 (7:07 am)
@Brett Seyler I'm personally surprised anyone wants to really distribute to those markets. And really we have to pay extra for it anyway. I personally see GG supporting consoles, web and iPhone etc as overhead to the company and the project I want and spend money on - a PC game engine. 
#28
11/06/2009 (7:11 am)
I work on Macs. Epic has no option for me, so I really don't care. I also work on iPhone stuff. They don't even have a mobile engine (yet?). Enough royalties are already eaten up by distributors, so I'll stick to Torque tech. 
#29
11/06/2009 (8:42 am)
Quote: I think we just saw UT3 mod tools repackaged as UDK w/ a murky, very limiting license.What is so murky about 25% of the sales after the first $5000 in sales?
#30
a good thing to think is (users): don't waste time defending your engine("t3d is better because i bought ..."), use the one that fit better to your project.
11/06/2009 (8:57 am)
perfect!!! waiting for crytek to do the same :D, more options to choose is always good, probably for me will be better to have a good look on the UDK since I'm not a c++ programmer yet, probably i will do more things using the UDK ATM if its that good.a good thing to think is (users): don't waste time defending your engine("t3d is better because i bought ..."), use the one that fit better to your project.
#31
..I mean, you just got punched in the gut by a 500lbs gorilla. I hope you recognize that and talk with us about it.
thx
11/06/2009 (9:56 am)
I know that I'll be waiting for an official word from GG about this situation. Will there be an official word about this ?..I mean, you just got punched in the gut by a 500lbs gorilla. I hope you recognize that and talk with us about it.
thx
#32
11/06/2009 (10:07 am)
@eb: The gorilla had to go on a diet to join the featherweight championship, though ;)
#33
I don't know why people like to think that the cheapest markets are never worth looking at. Often there's a lot of talent in people who are hobbyists. And I think Unreal realizes that.
A lot of rich and famous people, especially in the computer industry, started in "garages." Sometimes even a literal garage.
Valve realizes that too, although they decided to go the mod route. Counterstrike started as a mod, and Portal started by grabbing some kids just out of college. I don't think either one of them started their careers being able to afford a $1000 game engine. Counterstrike was a mod of a game. Portal was based on Narbacular Drop, a hand coded game for a contest at a college.
"UDK, no iphone / web / wii / mac distribution for you then? no source code? last-gen lighting technology? 25% royalties?"
iPhone, web, Wii, mac etc are nice, but other than the Wii I don't think you're missing any large markets there. Not to mention you'll likely have to remake the game each time for each platform, as (with the exception of the mac) none of those platforms are really anywhere near as capable as the PC platform.
No source code is fine for most hobbyists.
I don't see what's so "last gen lighting" about it. It includes Ambient occlusion and global illumination, which are difficult to do in real time, and often merely simulated with baked textures.
http://www.udk.com/features-lighting.html
Frankly, yes, I think Torque lost an audience when it switched to the new pricing model. They waved cheap people off as unprofitable. Which may be true in some respects, but on the other hand may be missing a small set of people who may have been truly talented and may have ended up being profitable.
Well, now that audience will switch to the free Unreal SDK. Maybe if they're successful, they may switch to Torque.
I've always believed that the minimum price pool, even though it's largely filled with failed games, will sometimes have a diamond in the rough, looking for something better. It's very useful to look for that diamond, because if you find it it was well worth the search.
Torque has become what I like to call a "second game" engine - it's the engine you use for a second game if the first game was semi-successful and you want to expand to something better. That pretty much left a hole in the market for the first game. Looks like Unreal decided to go there.
Torque decided to change its role. That's fine. But I think that showing distaste for hobbyists is not a viable business strategy. Even if they don't decide to sell products to them, I don't think it's fitting to have a negative attitude towards them or to completely ignore them.
11/06/2009 (10:32 am)
"@Brett Seyler I'm personally surprised anyone wants to really distribute to those markets"I don't know why people like to think that the cheapest markets are never worth looking at. Often there's a lot of talent in people who are hobbyists. And I think Unreal realizes that.
A lot of rich and famous people, especially in the computer industry, started in "garages." Sometimes even a literal garage.
Valve realizes that too, although they decided to go the mod route. Counterstrike started as a mod, and Portal started by grabbing some kids just out of college. I don't think either one of them started their careers being able to afford a $1000 game engine. Counterstrike was a mod of a game. Portal was based on Narbacular Drop, a hand coded game for a contest at a college.
"UDK, no iphone / web / wii / mac distribution for you then? no source code? last-gen lighting technology? 25% royalties?"
iPhone, web, Wii, mac etc are nice, but other than the Wii I don't think you're missing any large markets there. Not to mention you'll likely have to remake the game each time for each platform, as (with the exception of the mac) none of those platforms are really anywhere near as capable as the PC platform.
No source code is fine for most hobbyists.
I don't see what's so "last gen lighting" about it. It includes Ambient occlusion and global illumination, which are difficult to do in real time, and often merely simulated with baked textures.
http://www.udk.com/features-lighting.html
Frankly, yes, I think Torque lost an audience when it switched to the new pricing model. They waved cheap people off as unprofitable. Which may be true in some respects, but on the other hand may be missing a small set of people who may have been truly talented and may have ended up being profitable.
Well, now that audience will switch to the free Unreal SDK. Maybe if they're successful, they may switch to Torque.
I've always believed that the minimum price pool, even though it's largely filled with failed games, will sometimes have a diamond in the rough, looking for something better. It's very useful to look for that diamond, because if you find it it was well worth the search.
Torque has become what I like to call a "second game" engine - it's the engine you use for a second game if the first game was semi-successful and you want to expand to something better. That pretty much left a hole in the market for the first game. Looks like Unreal decided to go there.
Torque decided to change its role. That's fine. But I think that showing distaste for hobbyists is not a viable business strategy. Even if they don't decide to sell products to them, I don't think it's fitting to have a negative attitude towards them or to completely ignore them.
#34
..if you can weigh the severity of this news against GG's business plans, then I am not sure why you're calling it "featherweight". I suppose you're remaining hopeful which is good. Just don't go delusional. ;)
11/06/2009 (10:43 am)
//edit: @ Ronny//..if you can weigh the severity of this news against GG's business plans, then I am not sure why you're calling it "featherweight". I suppose you're remaining hopeful which is good. Just don't go delusional. ;)
#35
11/06/2009 (11:10 am)
I think a change in direction at TorquePowered might be a wise thing at this juncture. I heartily agree with Eb, I would like to engage in an honest conversation about T3D's future, not some propaganda where we all pretend nothing has changed. 
#36
Besides the fact that at some point you would have lost far more money to the royalties than to the cost of T3D licenses for your team? Or maybe the fact that that 25% pertains to using the engine, and not what you would have to pay publishers if you actually publish a title?
Basically, the choice is: $1000 per seat up front versus 25% royalties later on.
So in effect, Epic is betting on the fact that the only way to attract small-time people who can generate them money is to give it away free, let the 95% of teams fail (which is pretty much a constant no matter what tech is used), and then juice the 5% that make it for 25% of their money- before a publisher or portal and/or box channel take their cuts. The developer who made the game all happy about 25% royalties can easily be left with very little for their effort.
That kind of situation is the catalyst that helped form GarageGames in the first place. Now, I'm not going to go fanboy and say that any of these free engines suck or anything, because that's just not the case, IMO, but I think that deep thinking should always be applied to licenses. If a team has a self-publishing, digital distribution model where they won't pay out to anyone other than Epic, then sure, 25% is a fine deal. If they're going through one of these portals that take a minimum of 25-50%, then they might want to think on it a bit more. If they're going through a traditional publisher, then they're probably going to see very little profits, if any.
And sure, UDK has a name and people might have taken you more seriously before (I've been asked by certain business folk why I wasn't using Unreal for my game- apparently cost savings wasn't a good enough answer), but now that UDK's barrier to entry has dropped to the floor, it won't carry as much weight. Well, maybe for another six months, until every scrub wanting to make a Dragon Ball Z MMORPGRTSFPSBBQ who spams the publishers with their uber great ideas backs them up with "and we're going to use Unreal, because it's free!".
11/06/2009 (11:41 am)
Quote:What is so murky about 25% of the sales after the first $5000 in sales?
Besides the fact that at some point you would have lost far more money to the royalties than to the cost of T3D licenses for your team? Or maybe the fact that that 25% pertains to using the engine, and not what you would have to pay publishers if you actually publish a title?
Basically, the choice is: $1000 per seat up front versus 25% royalties later on.
So in effect, Epic is betting on the fact that the only way to attract small-time people who can generate them money is to give it away free, let the 95% of teams fail (which is pretty much a constant no matter what tech is used), and then juice the 5% that make it for 25% of their money- before a publisher or portal and/or box channel take their cuts. The developer who made the game all happy about 25% royalties can easily be left with very little for their effort.
That kind of situation is the catalyst that helped form GarageGames in the first place. Now, I'm not going to go fanboy and say that any of these free engines suck or anything, because that's just not the case, IMO, but I think that deep thinking should always be applied to licenses. If a team has a self-publishing, digital distribution model where they won't pay out to anyone other than Epic, then sure, 25% is a fine deal. If they're going through one of these portals that take a minimum of 25-50%, then they might want to think on it a bit more. If they're going through a traditional publisher, then they're probably going to see very little profits, if any.
And sure, UDK has a name and people might have taken you more seriously before (I've been asked by certain business folk why I wasn't using Unreal for my game- apparently cost savings wasn't a good enough answer), but now that UDK's barrier to entry has dropped to the floor, it won't carry as much weight. Well, maybe for another six months, until every scrub wanting to make a Dragon Ball Z MMORPGRTSFPSBBQ who spams the publishers with their uber great ideas backs them up with "and we're going to use Unreal, because it's free!".
#37
People just constantly call GG "small-timers". If Epic want to rub elbows with us little people, I don't think it's such a terrible place to be.
@Ted: Yep, Epic will definitely have their existing modding community. Now they don't need to make total conversions anymore, just take the core UDK and build what they need. Not requiring a specific game is a benefit to their distribution, too.
About money: There's always self-publishing through the likes of Plimus and eSellerate. You end up paying 30-35% of the profits to the two other parties, and marketing is up to you. This can work for some. I still prefer the up-front engine cost when it's in the T3D/Unity range.
11/06/2009 (11:55 am)
@eb: Don't worry - I don't think T3D is puny and pathetic :)People just constantly call GG "small-timers". If Epic want to rub elbows with us little people, I don't think it's such a terrible place to be.
@Ted: Yep, Epic will definitely have their existing modding community. Now they don't need to make total conversions anymore, just take the core UDK and build what they need. Not requiring a specific game is a benefit to their distribution, too.
About money: There's always self-publishing through the likes of Plimus and eSellerate. You end up paying 30-35% of the profits to the two other parties, and marketing is up to you. This can work for some. I still prefer the up-front engine cost when it's in the T3D/Unity range.
#38
11/06/2009 (12:03 pm)
Shame it wasn't Infinity Ward releasing a commercial version of their modtools, I could have charged for all my old mods! I've 35,000 downloads at 10 bucks a pop --- I'd be rich!
#39
Right, and if anyone can make out like a bandit in all this, their modding community stands the best chance. There will, of course, be break-out teams, but I expect the modders will do far better.
11/06/2009 (12:16 pm)
Quote:Now they don't need to make total conversions anymore, just take the core UDK and build what they need. Not requiring a specific game is a benefit to their distribution, too.
Right, and if anyone can make out like a bandit in all this, their modding community stands the best chance. There will, of course, be break-out teams, but I expect the modders will do far better.
#40
Yes, Epic is passing out the (Windows only) UDK crack pipe for free. But, they want you owing them 25%, forever, once you're sucking on it.
There is a lot of brain power in and around Torque. None of the VERY RECENT events are going unnoticed. I think expecting some kind of "official statement" or rapid course change isn't very realistic, warranted, or advisable.
2010 is looking *amazing* for pro, pro-indie, indie, and hobbiest game makers! So, let's keep the love flowing... while respecting the competition and not underestimate anything, including Torque!
11/06/2009 (12:18 pm)
Holy cow, what an explosion. Inhaling deeply, a few times, may be in order. (I know I have...)Yes, Epic is passing out the (Windows only) UDK crack pipe for free. But, they want you owing them 25%, forever, once you're sucking on it.
There is a lot of brain power in and around Torque. None of the VERY RECENT events are going unnoticed. I think expecting some kind of "official statement" or rapid course change isn't very realistic, warranted, or advisable.
2010 is looking *amazing* for pro, pro-indie, indie, and hobbiest game makers! So, let's keep the love flowing... while respecting the competition and not underestimate anything, including Torque!
Associate Steve Acaster
[YorkshireRifles]