Torque3D and Unity's New Pricing

#101 @eb - Seriously. I mean the Unreal engine has already done a MASSIVE amount of work that you will still need to do with Torque. I'm talking at least a year of work in time savings. Paying 5 to 10 employees for an additional year of work could easily cost you $300,000 to $500,000. That easily makes Unreal a true viable option for the indie developer.

There are going to be a lot of Mod teams rolling in the $$$ soon. All thanks to Epic.

#102 You can make UDK real easy with torque and some added stuff.

This is everything prices and all ya some of the stuff is costy but its better then paying 25% to Unreal and its cheaper then paying unreal. The stuff listed at the end is stuff thats in T3d without added stuff. Some of this stuff still requires you to add it in your self though I know some people are working to get SpeedTree working in the engine.

---SpeedTree Foliage Editor
www.speedtree.com/ $6,495-9,995
---

---FaceFX Facial Animation
www.facefx.com/
Price is unknown I think a post said $250k this you don't need anyway. Just get modo then synchronize the sound to the animation your self. Modo price is $995.00. You can do it in almost any program but modo is faster in that part I say.
---

---Bink Video Codec
www.radgametools.com/sales.htm Bink vidio $6,000
---

---Artificial Intelligence
www.garagegames.com/products/ai-starter-kit $27 Universal AI Starter Kit + other AI are coming to t3d i think i counted 3-4 difrent ones so far.
---

---Broad Audio Support
www.garagegames.com/products/fmod $100 FMOD Ex
---

---Gorgeous Cinematics
www.garagegames.com/products/gamemechanicskit $95 Game Mechanics Kit

www.garagegames.com/products/verve $130 Verve
---

Destructible Environments,
Distributed Computing(When they make T3d with DX11 is what GG is saying),
Particle Effects,
Real-time Shaders,
Built-in Networking(not 100% on this but lan I think works),
Terrain,
Eye-popping Lighting and Shadows(T3d has better lighting also pureLIGHT is a big + as well thats $500),
Real World Physics,
Powerful Scripting(We also have sorce which is even better),
State-of-the-Art Animation,
Pure Rendering Power,
Complete Editing Environment,

#103 This kid numbs my brain.

#104 @Brandon - It definitely sounds much easier to do all that than just use everything out of the box with UDK.

#105

Quote:I never said, nor do I say now, that it is better to pay 25% of your sales than a flat rate. I do understand the mathematics, but the hidden implication in your math is that you can do everything with T3D that you can do with the UDK, and I am not at all certain that is true.

In no way was there a "hidden implication" that T3D did everything that the UDK does, no way whatsoever. The implication of my post was that 25% was a huge sacrifice - one which was repeated a number of times.

I wholeheartedly implore you to select the middleware offering which is appropriate for your intentions. If that is T3D, fine, but if price is the only discernible delta - for your application of the engine - then T3D is a better alternative.

Again, in no way am I implying that Torque 3D compares, feature wise, to Unreal.

#106 Okay, the consensus here is that UDK does everything that Torque does, only better than Torque (presuming T3D) and that Torque can't do everything that UDK can do.

Now here is the excercise boys and girls:

Create a 4km x 4km zone and since unreal is in every way better than Torque, go crazy with the terrain tesselation. (Hint, Epic shipped no large zones in Unreal Tournament 3)

Have 65 players on a server.

Access a database in any way that is not slllllllooooooooowwwwww (hint: UNrealScript's TCPLink is sssssslllllllooooooowwwww)

Use RPC to communicate between servers, or with a third party. Remember TCPLink being ssssssssllllllloooooooowwwwwww.....

#107 Why are people getting so worked up over this?

@Brandon - gotta laugh at you including AI Starter kit as a comparison to the A.I. in Unreal, they're worlds apart in functionality if you're trying to make both comparable you'll want to add spirops, pathengine, etc for several $1000.

It's all about the right tool for the right job and most here have valid points, I don't think UDK becomes a direct competitor to Torque 3d as it's likely to appeal to two different markets.

#108 @ Andy

I certainly agree with you, T3D can not compare with UDK, they are two different things
UDK, is or was mostly for big studio companies who could afford it, a real compete professional tool id not one of th efinest there is ever been.

T3D is just coming out of the indie side, is trying to reach more pro market , stil has quite some way to go, but eventually it will get there.

But on the other hand, Unreal, being for a totally different market, now with their UDK has now or will now reach pretty much all markets with their new license which is hard to refuse and or overlook.
yeah, no source code but I dont think is needed for any AAA kinda of game dev.

Hey , this still will not keep me from getting T3D, at least when TMMOKIT for T3D is available, that is if PG mmoworkshop fixes his issues with the website or licensing thing. since the only reason I want T3D is for use it with tmmokit.
Unless something elso comes out for making a small scale mmo game out of the box. I know I will probably never publish an mmo game, but hey is just a hobby that will keep me busy for quite some time.

#109 @Phillip -- Ok, I hear you. If I stepped on your toes a bit with a misinterpretation, I apologize. I do agree that 25% is a huge freakin hit. I just don't think that means it is totally unacceptable.

Personally, I am actually more interested in what T3D makes of this new "opportunity" than I am in anything that Unreal does.

#110 @pilotcap: No source code can be a very big problem depending on the type of game your making. If you wanted to make an FPS its not an issue. If you wanted to say make an online RPG, you'd want to make network adjustments to allow for more players and send updates less frequently, for example. And you wouldn't be able to. It just depends on the type of game your making, and if the developers have already put in some hooks for things that you will need. I'd say in most cases though, you'd want the source code unless your doing a cookie cutter game. However, if you trim down your game design and think of creative means around the problem you can maybe find alternate solutions or ways of doing things. That would not be possible in the example above though.

In all honesty, if I were doing a first person shooter that focused on indoor environments, I'd likely jump to UDK right now. But if I were doing (which I am) an online RPG, I don't it as a viable option. I do think UDK being released under these terms is a win/win for indie developers. There's another option out there right now for them to choose from. I don't see UDK coming out though as somethign that is going to kill Torque 3D, as it has its own set of strengths. It may cut into their market share, though.

#111

Quote:25% is not that much!? Lets be clear here, if you self-publish and self-shelf your product, then you will recieve 75% of the total revenue. If you distribute through a portal, there goes 25-50%. If you go through a publisher, there goes another significant chunk of your work. 25% *is* a lot, it really really is.

If your game earns more than $4,000 in gross sales (assuming that you actually get 75% of the gross) then you are better off using Torque 3D (income wise). Period.

Hell, its not even that for most developers around here since they can pick T3D up for $700 (with the TGEA discount). This means that as soon as you earn over $2,800 it is better to go with T3D.

25% *is* huge. Really huge. Really REALLY huge.

Thats only if you go down the royalty route. You can also go down the $2500 per seat (all seats, including artists) and waive the 25% royalties.

Say this scenario happens, a team is assembled, they work with UDK, complete a game, they release a demo for free. They see the demo is garnishing large attention. They form a company, they get a business loan to cover the $2500 per seat license. Buy licenses, commercially release the full game, they repay the loan, boom they keep the rest of their profits.

Financial risk in the beginning $0. If they released the demo and noticed it was a flop, it would be easier to let it go and move on because they wouldnt have had engine license debt to worry about and hold them back from moving on.

#112 @Damien: I'm pretty sure you don't get a royalty-free license to distribute and earn revenue for $2,500 a seat. I'm not 100% sure (again, it's a little murky not being able to look at the actual license), but from this:

Quote:· A warehouse company uses UDK to create an application for employee safety training. They develop it on one computer and then install the resulting application on two computers for their internal employees to use. They require a single UDK development seat license for a total cost of $2,500 per year, for as long as they use UDK to develop and/or maintain the application.
· That same warehouse company decides to use the safety training application to sell safety training services to third parties. They earn $15,000 in the first calendar quarter for safety training services. They would pay a seat license for the internal use, US $99.00 for the royalty license and the 25% royalty on the training services revenue over $5,000. They would be required to pay $2,599 to Epic and the 25% royalty on subsequent revenue.

It appears that you pay them $99 / seat and royalties if you're going to make money. The $2,500 / seat option is only for non-distributive commercial work (as far as I can tell).

#113
Yep.

Quote:If you are creating a game or commercial application using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a game or application, the per-seat option does not apply.

And the $2,500 is annual BTW.

#114

Quote:If you are creating a game or commercial application using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a game or application, the per-seat option does not apply. Instead the license terms for this arrangement are US $99 (Ninety Nine US Dollars) up-front, and a 0% royalty on you or your company's first $5,000 (US) in UDK related revenue, and a 25% royalty on UDK related revenue above $5,000 (US). UDK related revenue includes, but is not limited to, monies earned from: sales, services, training, advertisements, sponsorships, endorsements, memberships, subscription fees, rentals and pay-to-play.
Here are some examples:

--------snip------

· A team creates a game with UDK that they intend to sell. After six months of development, they release the game through digital distribution and they earn €15,000 in the first calendar quarter after release. Their use of UDK during development requires no fee. Upon release they would pay US $99.99 for a Royalty Bearing license. After earning €15,000, they would be required to pay Epic €2,500 (€0 on the first €5,000 in revenue, and €2,500 on the next €10,000 in revenue). On subsequent revenue, they are required to pay the 25% royalty.

--------snip------

The UDK Commercial Use License may be executed by an individual or a corporate entity. If an unincorporated team wishes to license UDK, we recommend setting up a simple corporation or partnership for the team before contacting us for a license. If that is not feasible, please designate a single individual to contact us who will be responsible for executing the license and fulfilling the terms.

#115 @J.C.

You are certainly right, since I would like to create an online rpg, for my needs the UDK the way it is wont help me, since is pretty much like T3D out of the box specially designed for FPS, so the advantage of T3D is having the source code to be able to modify and create an online rpg the chances are greater money wise. compared with UDK, the chances for me to get source code for it, $$350k are prety much none. so for my rpg project it definately wont work using UDK.
Unless http://www.epicgameschina.com/tech/tech-atlas_features.html

does a royalty fee % package with the atlas mmo kit for Unreal, like UDK did. then it will be a totally different story.

but for now it seems pretty much unreachable. for my needs I think T3D will be my best option if there is ever a tmmokit release for it.

or another option will be the new mmo package for Unity3d which will be release in this month by exit games using photon mmo tech. unity seems more appealing tho, since it already has the seamless background loading terrain paging available out of the box.
but we'll see which one comes out first.

#116 Very interesting info, Pilot, thanks for sharing. I had no idea that Unity had terrain paging or were getting ready to implement a MMO Package. Is there an additional cost for the MMO add on or is it free with Unity Pro?

#117 Just to be clear, no one here is going to be making any MMO worth anything. If it is just as a hobby and the game is free to the public, sure it can be done. I'm not saying no one here has the skills to make one, I'm just saying to make a decent quality one will require MASSIVE amounts of content. Even Minions of Mirth looked like crap (it didn't even have a jump animation for heavens sake) and that is the best one I've seen to date.

#118 @Steve:
yes indeed, both of unity , pro and free version have the ability to seamless terrain, the difference is that pro will load the terrain blocks in the background, so you wont notice when the character moves along from terrain block to terrain block, pretty much the terrain blocks loads smoothly as you walk thru and automatically unloads previous terrain when walking further away from it depending on setting you apply to it or distance you setup to load an unload,

it pretty much wont get noticed with pro version since is background loading.

but in free version you still get the terrain paging system, and it will load as you walk thru the next block, but sometimes is noticable when new block loads while walking thru, altho I was testing with it and you can pretty much make it and configure to not even notice when loading by changing the camera distance view or fog to it so you wont know when new terrain block loads. with tweaking it will work fine.

link for terrain paging: http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=35481


as for the mmokit for unity , is an extra addon from exitgames mmo server called photon a very strong mmo backend server UDP and TCP capable, which they have done a mmo server demo specially to work with unity out of the box,
they license it per amount of players you need, ie: 100. 500, unlimited, license fee is not that bad tho. they will release the demo sometime this month on Nov.
here is link: http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=34965

hope this helps.


@Black Tengu:

yes, making an mmo is a tough job, but as I stated previously, my whole purpose is as a hobby, pretty much therapy for my brain, something to keep you bussy for quite some time, and as new options come available it will even makes it easiest to get it done, better graphics better options and feature, I think it will be a great and fun journey.


yes MOM mmokit is a great backend and game logic, although since MOM was created with TGE several years ago, thats why graphics did not look that appealing compared to commercial mmo now adays, and not only that also characters and items are a little old fashioned created. thats why it looks kinda of crappy compared to todays mmo's

but just imagine using the same backend technology with a quality graphics and special fx and features game engine like T3D or Unity or even UDK?? Ill bet you even a very small scale mmo game with this technologies now aday will look very appealing and eye candy I must say.

#119 I believe I'm a Torque "regular". I don't participate a lot with the community but I have been around since the start and I've bought quite a few of the 3D engines offered by GarageGames. I have a good understanding of how the engine has worked in the past and I've used Torque for a number of different projects, one which actually got released (a motion simulator ride called Monster Roll Cage with the great guys from Idryonis).

I got into it almost 8 years ago to learn about game programming. Torque has taught me so much and made me a better programmer for my every day non video game work too. Before Torque I messed around with modding Quake, Unreal, and Tribes. I published a mod for Tribes 2 which was featured in PC Gamer. I'm by no means a successful modder or game programmer but I am someone who likes to tinker and every once and a while comes out with something.

I've been trying to buy Torque3D for a few months now for a new project I'm working on. It's a project I want to release for free, just to get something else out there and see if it's any fun to play. My objective is to make something fun, not make money. It's just been difficult, I'm married now, have a company I run, and a ton of other expenses which make it harder for me to justify spending $700 (I get the discount for owning TGEA) for a project which I don't expect to see any revenue from. It's stress relief, it's my hobby. I believe $700 is not too large of an expense for a hobby that means a lot to you (I've bought guitars that were far more expensive than that). But now I do have other viable high quality options to look at which I didn't have before (or wasn't aware of before).

As a programmer who wants to do this for fun, it's great to have full source and mess around with anything I want. One time I stripped out the entire networking layer and implemented a realtime turn based one (like Age of Empires) which works great for RTS style games and makes it a lot easier to keep physics in sync for RTS games with potentially thousands of units. It worked great and it was possible because I had full source. Now maybe it is possible to do this in some form with Unity or UDK, I just don't know and in order to find out I have to spend some time with both SDKs and figure out just what is and isn't possible. I'll have to do that with Torque3D too but at least I know where that's all coming from.

I still plan on buying Torque3D. It'll take some time, hopefully early next year. But in the meantime UDK is really appealing because it looks gorgeous, comes with a ton of cool extra stuff which has already been mentioned in this thread, and it's free...I can start today, I actually already did. I'm willing to take the time to evaluate it and see if it works for my project. I might end up prototyping with UDK and then finally building it in Torque3D. I suspect that there are things I want to do which won't be entirely possible with UDK, but I'm going to give it a shot...maybe it can and if it can't, I can definitely learn some from UDK and maybe bring them back to Torque3D when I finally get to it.

#120 @Black Tengu: I think that's a pretty bad generalization. To make an MMORPG is a lot of work, but it's certainly possible for indies to do it. There are many indie MMOs out there, though most of them are asian made.