Torque 3D used to build MMO..?
by Venge · in General Discussion · 09/29/2009 (1:27 pm) · 23 replies
Hi :)
I want to know if Torque 3D is suitable for my project. This game engine look very great but it is possible to make a MMORPG with it, I mean does it provide a ready working network dedicated to MMO (Something like Multiverse do) and something similar to an MMO Kit to boost my demo/prototype release?
I read TGEA is no longer sold and that MMOWorkshop is not yet ready for T3D. It would probably require months to have a compatible version so what are my choices now..? At first I was hoping to be able to build the first steps of my project with TGEA/MMOworkshop then to upgrade later to T3D but maybe it was not a good idea.. So what do you suggest now? Do I have to look into another engine, or to wait months..?
Thanks for any advice!
#2
And speaking as someone who is working on an MMO with T3D (recently ported over from TGEA): There are only improvements to be had when moving from TGEA to T3D. You have an easier art pipeline, a better sky (I love ScatterSky), much more detailed terrains, river and road editors, and most of the resources that I had in the TGEA version of the engine ported over quite well (though I did something with drag n drop buttons that makes T3D puke a lot, but that's on me).
But out of the box: No, T3D is too generic an engine to have MMO-specific code (and just what is a "generic MMO" anyway?), but with the changes found in the forums and a good network architecture, you can indeed make an MMO, and be nowhere near the first to do it with this tech ;)
09/29/2009 (4:09 pm)
Read here for loads of info on building an MMO with Torque tech, from advice to lists of resources and threads on this site.And speaking as someone who is working on an MMO with T3D (recently ported over from TGEA): There are only improvements to be had when moving from TGEA to T3D. You have an easier art pipeline, a better sky (I love ScatterSky), much more detailed terrains, river and road editors, and most of the resources that I had in the TGEA version of the engine ported over quite well (though I did something with drag n drop buttons that makes T3D puke a lot, but that's on me).
But out of the box: No, T3D is too generic an engine to have MMO-specific code (and just what is a "generic MMO" anyway?), but with the changes found in the forums and a good network architecture, you can indeed make an MMO, and be nowhere near the first to do it with this tech ;)
#4
09/30/2009 (12:31 am)
@Eric: Me? No. My MMO is far too different in features to use the MMOKit. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but my architecture and feature list are somewhat different, and best done from scratch in some places (but not rendering or networking, hence T3D, lol).
#5
Thanks for you answers! I don't know so much about MMO kit so it's hard to know how it must be helpfull or not but I think it would be at least interesting for speed prototyping...
That's why I will probably have to wait a compatible release with T3D since TGEA is no longer available... or to find an alternative!
My other concern would be network architecture: I don't know so much about that and scaling possibilities so I'm bit scared by that..? Otherwise I have some very basic skills in c++ so scripting doesn't scare me so much.
09/30/2009 (1:51 pm)
Thanks for you answers! I don't know so much about MMO kit so it's hard to know how it must be helpfull or not but I think it would be at least interesting for speed prototyping...
That's why I will probably have to wait a compatible release with T3D since TGEA is no longer available... or to find an alternative!
My other concern would be network architecture: I don't know so much about that and scaling possibilities so I'm bit scared by that..? Otherwise I have some very basic skills in c++ so scripting doesn't scare me so much.
#6
i recently did a survey of game engines in the $200K-and-below range from an MMO perspective, and Torque's networking is one of its most appealing aspects to me. It has a pretty sophisticated system, tightly integrated to the simulation, and it shows. For example, to handle more than 32 players in Gamebryo you need to integrate a third-party networking solution such as Raknet (or others). With Unity, the threshhold for third-party networking is even lower. Out of the box, Torque should be able to handle at least 50 players per server, and probably 100. At vSide, we started seeing networking & simulation bottlenecking at around 250 players per server. (note that's with some tweaks). Bear in mind, of course, that networking performance != framerate, and if you have 100 players in view all at once, your framerate is going to drop!
additionally, a torque dedicated server can be compiled for linux, which [imo] is vastly preferable for a serious MMO operation. (note, T3D doesn't build for linux out of the box, but i know for a fact that a dedicated server can be ported there in a day or two by a smart programmer)
09/30/2009 (2:44 pm)
> My other concern would be network architecturei recently did a survey of game engines in the $200K-and-below range from an MMO perspective, and Torque's networking is one of its most appealing aspects to me. It has a pretty sophisticated system, tightly integrated to the simulation, and it shows. For example, to handle more than 32 players in Gamebryo you need to integrate a third-party networking solution such as Raknet (or others). With Unity, the threshhold for third-party networking is even lower. Out of the box, Torque should be able to handle at least 50 players per server, and probably 100. At vSide, we started seeing networking & simulation bottlenecking at around 250 players per server. (note that's with some tweaks). Bear in mind, of course, that networking performance != framerate, and if you have 100 players in view all at once, your framerate is going to drop!
additionally, a torque dedicated server can be compiled for linux, which [imo] is vastly preferable for a serious MMO operation. (note, T3D doesn't build for linux out of the box, but i know for a fact that a dedicated server can be ported there in a day or two by a smart programmer)
#7
cause of course i don't wanna be locked into old kit ported up im also trying to no have any classes just races and skills that determine your class.. so i just wanted to have character xp that raises your combat/def... and xp that raised with the usage of all your skills to be able to level them up to get better skills where character xp limits how much skill xp you can get at that char lvl.. blah blah... but this cant be done with out ripping apart mmokit... and why rip part something that cant do instances per say...
but as a indie dev doing a side project though there was someone with some willing examples... obviously not trying to take anything more than coded architecture... till then i'll continue to try and play with my mmokit source... pointless really can't even get onto website to get any resources you .. know think im gonna start building off RTS and FPS examples in t3d V.10 for my MMO since i wanted a FPS side to it... but still have no idea about changing server arch
09/30/2009 (4:18 pm)
Yes im trying to lean away from using mmokit at all.. but kinda lost where to begin obviously i wanted to use my new copy of v1.0 and i want to base off Xenocell: Server magic blogs architecture to support instances and its basic server to client structure auth/www, master, instance server and the gateway, cache and database... but i fear my coding from scratch of this is going to be an issue... was trying to find some sort of resource to use as an example to write mine own cause of course i don't wanna be locked into old kit ported up im also trying to no have any classes just races and skills that determine your class.. so i just wanted to have character xp that raises your combat/def... and xp that raised with the usage of all your skills to be able to level them up to get better skills where character xp limits how much skill xp you can get at that char lvl.. blah blah... but this cant be done with out ripping apart mmokit... and why rip part something that cant do instances per say...
but as a indie dev doing a side project though there was someone with some willing examples... obviously not trying to take anything more than coded architecture... till then i'll continue to try and play with my mmokit source... pointless really can't even get onto website to get any resources you .. know think im gonna start building off RTS and FPS examples in t3d V.10 for my MMO since i wanted a FPS side to it... but still have no idea about changing server arch
#8
09/30/2009 (4:57 pm)
There is a planned release of MMO kit for T3D. It is a great option. Doesn't matter how complex your MMO is, if you have complex coding skills you can pretty much add anything to the kit. Read the Repopulation build notes. They have added things you would never imagine possible. You just got to have a skilled coder or coding skills. Minons of Mirth had/has 86,000 subs. There server code has proven itself. The kits default code is a great starting point. Has a lot of features found in AAA titles. I really haven't seen anything else that has such a complex starting point out there.
#9
try to view it from a proxy and no luck aswell.
any knows if mmoworkshop.com has gone for good?
10/01/2009 (4:14 am)
talking about the tmmokit or mmoworkshop site, the website is been down for the past 3 or 5 days, or I wonder if is only from my end.try to view it from a proxy and no luck aswell.
any knows if mmoworkshop.com has gone for good?
#12
10/01/2009 (12:10 pm)
It's very good to know a dedicated server can be compiled for Linux, it's better even for FPS since many administrator only use linux... Otherwise about network architecture I just hope it's not too much difficult to use 3rd libraries like raknet... 250 players it's already lot of people at same time for an indy MMO and 1000 people would be considered as a very successfully MMO but I'm sure we're all hoping to be successfull even if we're realistic at the end :D 
#13
mmorpgmaker.com/phpBB3/
As for the website, apparently according to their twitter posting it is being moved to another server. Beyond that there is sadly very little contact from PG with those who are actively supporting and maintaining the community so that is all we know.
10/02/2009 (4:46 am)
I should be putting out a release of some kind this month, the details really falls on what GG will allow me to do with all of their license changes for T3D. It might involve a lot of patching and compiling because of the binary/tools changes. We just recently ported over to 1.0 and are ironing out the bugs for Repopulation. Most of us are here now:mmorpgmaker.com/phpBB3/
As for the website, apparently according to their twitter posting it is being moved to another server. Beyond that there is sadly very little contact from PG with those who are actively supporting and maintaining the community so that is all we know.
#14
Glad to hear mmoworkshop is still alive, for a minute I thought GG and PG decided to shut down the site for good.
Hopefully GG and or PG will allow the mmoworkshop community continue on the journey and work out the license terms so we can get back on track with tmmokit for T3D.
Have you contacted GG regarding the new license terms for the kit for T3D?
Looking forward to hear back from you on the 1.0 port release.
regards
10/03/2009 (2:03 am)
Thanks for the uppdate Josh,Glad to hear mmoworkshop is still alive, for a minute I thought GG and PG decided to shut down the site for good.
Hopefully GG and or PG will allow the mmoworkshop community continue on the journey and work out the license terms so we can get back on track with tmmokit for T3D.
Have you contacted GG regarding the new license terms for the kit for T3D?
Looking forward to hear back from you on the 1.0 port release.
regards
#15
Nice to know it's just a server move. I was scared for a bit.
10/03/2009 (2:59 am)
Same here for me. Had not even started developing since I bought T3D at beta 2 because just waiting on the kit.Nice to know it's just a server move. I was scared for a bit.
#16
What change in license term might affect MMO Kit ..?
10/03/2009 (12:05 pm)
Good news! I think MMMO Kit is adding some great value to start something!What change in license term might affect MMO Kit ..?
#17
since I believe tmmokit was originally for TGE and or TGEA open source to use with, as longest you had license for any of those 2 products,
but since T3D is another different beast, the guys at mmoworkshop mentioned some license thing issue they are working out with PG or GG regarding the kit.
I think it has something to do with the binary being released with the kit or something like that.
maybe the guys from mmoworkshop community or PG or GG may elaborate more on this for further details.
10/15/2009 (10:38 pm)
Not sure exactly the license issue thay have, since I believe tmmokit was originally for TGE and or TGEA open source to use with, as longest you had license for any of those 2 products,
but since T3D is another different beast, the guys at mmoworkshop mentioned some license thing issue they are working out with PG or GG regarding the kit.
I think it has something to do with the binary being released with the kit or something like that.
maybe the guys from mmoworkshop community or PG or GG may elaborate more on this for further details.
#18
10/16/2009 (5:07 am)
Really hope to see it released ! Loved their previous works. 
#19
Torque has better networking than most of the engines on the market.
10/21/2009 (2:19 am)
It was mentioned to me the other day that even with Unreal Engine 3... its recommented to use Raknet if your gonna have more than 24 or so players in a level.Torque has better networking than most of the engines on the market.
#20
And when the number of users fell below a threshold limit (say 20), the 2nd server merges the users back to the first server and then goes into stand by mode.
11/17/2009 (9:58 pm)
Does anyone know if the kits support dynamically created servers? We were looking for the ability to have the server split the load to another server once a threshold was hit. For example, if 50 people were in the same area on a single physical server which could only handle 55 people. The server software would be smart enough to take half the users to a new physical server when the 51st person joined. And when the number of users fell below a threshold limit (say 20), the 2nd server merges the users back to the first server and then goes into stand by mode.
Torque 3D Owner Matt Huston
Atomic Banzai Games