GG removing TGE and TGEA from the product line!?

#41

Quote:Easy fix - commit to open source and give it a date, problem solved.

couldnt agree more

#42

Quote: if you can justify $250 you can just as easily justify a $1000

Do not agree. Like you said, that might make the difference between getting the product in a few months, or in a year and a half. For the younger developers here, me included, it could mean the difference between getting a loan from parents or not. But frankly, it's just 4 times the expense. How is that just as easily justified?

#43

Quote:
if you can justify $250 you can just as easily justify a $1000

Disagree as well, money is money... and times are hard, harder for some then others (obviously), until I can make TGE pay for T3D there is NO way for me to get on that bandwagon.

But... As far as the TGE/A Open-Sourcing I think given the latest information it could end up actually being a good thing.

I will most likely still be purchasing TGEA from the Licensing Department(after the given deadline), most likely for a price stepping-stone before T3D.

Either way as long as the forums are up and running the heart of the community shall beat on.

Open Sourcing could also give some "CPR" to TGE and most likely "liven" up the forums as well.
(pardon the bad puns, lol)

#44 The main point was trying to make is that they are both large sums of money being spent for a hobby or for the dream and passion of developing a game, and if you can justify a great expense you can just as easily justify a greater expense for your passion, it is a bit of a slippery slope,but $1000 is not out of the reach of anyone with at least a minimum wage job, with a large desire and a little bit of discipline. Sure the you will have to check the I want it now attitude and probably make some large sacrifices, but it is attainable.

Quote:For the younger developers here, me included, it could mean the difference between getting a loan from parents or not

You are correct the above really doesn't apply to younger developers who are at mom and dads whim, i sure know i probably wouldn't drop $1000 on a hobby my kid wanted to pursue, especially if there are less expensive alternatives, and who knows if they will stick with it...

#45 @Kenneth:
I completely understand your point, and it is a very good one at that, but neither of us (Daniel nor I)justified either of those expenses.
(btw TGEA is not $250 its $300, which for us is a $150 upgrade)

Quote:
and if you can justify a great expense you can just as easily justify a greater expense for your passion

Which is why I(and many others) was initially shocked when GG announced the TGEA cut, Its all relative in which someone thinks the value of an object, you say save up for a $500-$700 for your upgrade, I say save up $150 for my upgrade.

I'm not disputing T3D's Price or Power or Worth so Kenneth please, I understand, I truly do... but that just means that T3D is not for everyone. :)

I only hope that if the Open-Sourcing does go through that the forums are not overwhelmed, because at the moment I think the creative views and differances on GG is a great thing!

#46 I completely understand your point, and as i have indicated before, this move to cut TGEA is only beneficial to the customer and this community if it is open sourced, which from the tone and the implications made by GG employees is a very good possibility. You are absolutely correct T3D is not for everyone, I personally never upgraded to TGEA except to increase my discount for T3D because to me the differences between TGE and TGEA were not worth the added cost at the time and I can completely understand the same thought process for someone looking at T3D as well,

I think I went a bit off subject in my earlier posts as they were more in regard to pointing out the T3D is in fact a viable hobbyist engine. And individuals who contest that it is not purely based on the fact that they themselves cannot afford it at this very moment is not a good argument.

My intent was not to necessarily argue that T3D is for everyone and therefore it is a good thing to cut TGEA out of the market so I apologize if that was the message construed.

I do however think that it is still a little early to begin the picket lines and the public protests and the organized marches on Washington, as there is a good possibility that GG will ensure TGEA's continued viability by following ID's business model were it concerns legacy tech's, and there apparent dedication to continue to make available licensing for current licensee's and projects, This not for sale sign going up is really only for new customers, and I truly hope it is only to ensure no bad feelings for customers prior to open source licenses.

#47

Quote:The main point was trying to make is that they are both large sums of money being spent for a hobby or for the dream and passion of developing a game, and if you can justify a great expense you can just as easily justify a greater expense for your passion, it is a bit of a slippery slope,but $1000 is not out of the reach of anyone with at least a minimum wage job, with a large desire and a little bit of discipline

I guess that works if you have a minimum wage... Theres no such thing as minimum wage here in singapore, or any form of state provided support. USD1000 is about S$1500, and i know of working adults who earn less then that. Heck, I'm a University Graduate and I take home S$2.1k before taxes, expenses and bank loans (tuition fees) ! So yeah, the difference in the price of T3D and TGEA WOULD be a factor which determines whether or not I use T3D to pursue my hobby.

I own both TGEA/AFX (different account) and T3D, but will NOT be converting from AFX to T3D anytime soon. This is because AFX is an integral part of my project and has not been ported. Other resources such as the plasticGUI which is essential to my project has also not been ported over.

This leads to 2 points. Cutting of TGEA will result in less TGEA resources which will in turn lead to less possibility of resources being ported over to T3D. T3D has a smaller community then TGEA, this is a fact. In fact (pun not intended :P) I bet the number of T3D vs TGEA owners is less then 1/2, probably closer to 1/4. Smaller community = smaller output, its as simple as that. How many times have you needed a resources, and found only TGE versions which was then ported to TGEA.

"if you can justify a great expense you can just as easily justify a greater expense for your passion" is very bad reasoning, especially when its 4 times of an already great sum. $10 to $40, people might still be able to justify, $100 to $400 would be hard pressed. $250 to $1000 in my opinion is nearly impossible to justify for a casual hobbyist. An example is another hobby of mine, audio. I and own $250 ear/headphones, but will probably never buy a $1000 set. And these can be resold should i quit my hobby !

AFX will probably be ported over soon, as mentioned by Jeff in the private forums. But as also mentioned, the price will probably be going up. This is no doubt influenced by T3D's increase in price and follows the "If you are willing to pay $X for your hobby, then you are probably willing to pay $X + $100" mentality. If you note the price of the current 3rd party tools for T3D, you'll note a trend of increasing prices.

I'm not expecting TGEA to become open source, as to me, that might be expecting a little too much as even I don't really consider it legacy tech. TGE probably... soooo.... don't get your hopes too high !

Just my 2 cents, and if i pissed anyone off or got some facts wrong, my apologies, feel free to let me know :D Cheeers

#48

Quote:
I do however think that it is still a little early to begin the picket lines and the public protests and the organized marches on Washington

lol, am I really coming off like that? :)
I only wanted some of yall to understand what we on the lower end of the totem pole were feeling, I have no hard feelings for any of my prior worries in which my main concerns were:(and are already cleared up)
Legacy Tech Forum Support
TGEA License Availability

I'm merely curious at what happens at this point.

c'mon boys get your signs and walking shoes were going to picket GG... j/k, j/k... lol

#49 I disagree with the argument of fewer resources due to the loss of TGEa because it sure does seem to me that a larger number of Torque3D only resources have come out in recent months than have for TGEa -- only a seeming, I haven't counted.

There are more TGE resources because TGE has been around a lot longer. Removal of sales of TGEa may result in fewer TGEa resources but then most of the existing resources were simply ports of old(er) TGE resources -- and all (most) of those can be forward ported too.

I'm pretty regular (just trying to be helpful) across all of the forums. TGEa discussions and forum activity has been in decline for a while now (over a year) - despite the awesomeness that surrounded TGEa 1.7/1.8. The most engine-specific forum activity that I continually see takes place in the Torque 3D forums, followed by the TGB forums, and then by the TGE forums -- I see more regular activity surrounding Torque X than I do of TGEa -- but then I do ignore a good bit of it too ;D

I still see no reason why not selling TGE/TGEa would hurt any of the current active members of the community. Granted special circumstances may arise about purchasing/licensing TGE/TGEa but the forums are still assured of remaining -- and it's up to the community to keep that going. I may be firmly entrenched in Torque 3D (the removal of the games-only restriction is wonderful for me) but I still continue to help newcomers (and others) in all corners of the site.

#50 CSMP:

To all you guys that are so fond of old tech I have a few un-opened copies of windows 95 I will sell you.

I think that all of this is long overdue to be honest. very few business continue to sell their old product when a new one comes out.

It would be like me going to the Ford dealership and getting pissed off because they won't sell me a new 2001 ford mustang when 2010 is the current model.

#51 @James, Those are your opinions,
I could care less about your comments at this point though.

#52 @ james that is really a poor attitude, I guess you would consider ID a bunch of fools for opening up there old tech as an open source option...

@dreammarvel, I think you highlighted my point very well, its all about what it is worth to you, if you want it get it you can with a little saving, you for example wanted $250 headphones, on a 2.1K a month income that's 12% of your total months income! now lets not forget about the I pod or whatever it is you use those headphones for im sure that wasn't inexpensive either, after all what are headphones without the device to use them with but a fancy set of ear plugs. so lets say for arguments sake you spent another $100 (and thats a pretty inexpensive mp3 player) on some mp3 device you have now spent 17% of your months income just on that one hobby, you have something you enjoy and are willing to spend a large chunk of your monthly income on it and i am almost positive that you probably spent more than 17% of your monthly income on that one hobby, now to add some perspective, if you were to save for 1 year for say T3d at $1000 based on your income of 2.1k per month that works out to be 4% of your total years income on that one hobby, that means for 12 months you could save $84 and be in on the bandwagon if t3d has the features and abilities you really want. Dont get me wrong i never said T3D was for everyone and that everyone should be upgrading to the new tech, but it is not as out of reach as so many keep griping about.

#53

Quote:@ james that is really a poor attitude, I guess you would consider ID a bunch of fools for opening up there old tech as an open source option...

That move was made with more than one generation of separation. They didn't release the engine as open source as soon as the next one came out.
they waited till it was a couple generations out of date before releasing it.

@CSMP
My point was that it is common to remove the old product when a new one comes out. The logic of getting upset about how they wont sell old tech when they are trying to sell their new tech make no sense.

#54 @James, is TGEA old tech?

#55 If TGEA does go down the open source route then kudos to GG, but I imagine if I had just bought TGEA a couple of days ago I would be feeling pretty hard done by right at this moment. Giving one months notice of dropping a product seems like a bit of a lack of respect for your customer base to me, especially when there are still issues listed as "we're working on it" in the TGEA known issues thread.

#56 @James, is TGEA old tech?

Because I seem to remember putting this in the main body:

Quote:
I can understand removing TGE from the line... but TGEA???

and btw:

Quote:
The logic of getting upset about how they wont sell old tech when they are trying to sell their new tech make no sense

When the logic involves a $150 upgrade version or the alternative an $850 dollar upgrade version, I think it makes sense.
(p.s. to clarify to others, im not griping about the price... lol) :)

But it only seems like you are constantly trying to bash those of us that have not upgraded, by saying that even for FREE... TGE/A is not worth it??

I think you have some serious ego problems there buddy, either way we can go back and forth with this, but I feel all has been said.

@Kenneth, lol, you should be the T3D salesperson, your even charting out our finances for saving up enough for T3D, i love it, lmao.

#57 Other than the HUGE improvement and graphics rendering and art pipeline/tools, the actual game development with Shapebase/Gamebase/GUI/TorqueScript is largely unchanged from TGE -> Torque 3D.

This is why 3rd party products like AFX2/GMK can target all three.

I am actually working, hard, on improvements to the game coding and scripting, where having the ability to release early, release often with a test driven development environment would be of great benefit... and possibly, just possibly get some otherwise not possible help.

So, other than blowing hot air or waving around how incredibly 31337 I am... I have legitimate reasons for wanting to see an Open Source TGE help feed community and resources into the current generation.

#58 @CSMP LOL, i wouldnt trade my day job for sales no way no how! Just pointing out that $1000 isnt really all that much money in the grand scheme of things or really that hard to see if you have the right attitude, now convincing a city that building a $400 Million dollar poop plant is a good idea and convincing my wife that I really need Purelight is my real challange this year, :)

#59 i think that only TGE, TGEA i think that have 1 or 2 years of life, OR make a LITE version of T3D with source, for you can have only one branch of code...

#60

Quote:
now convincing a city that building a $400 Million dollar poop plant is a good idea and convincing my wife that I really need Purelight is my real challange this year, :)

I don't know which part of that made me laugh the hardest, but either way sounds like you got a helluva task at hand, lmao.