My Insight to the T3D Situation
by Robert Sutton · in Torque 3D Public · 09/18/2009 (2:11 pm) · 79 replies
I know that alot of peopel have already spoke on or about the price of t3d and what ever, but I would like to make a few points clear as IO just cant hold back my thoughts anymore. I already bought tgea and tge which WERE NOT EVEN BUG FREE OR HAD PROPER DOCUMENTATION, but still none the less great engines !! Dont get me wrong on that fact, I love using them and having them thanks to GG ..but.. both are going to be crap by them not being updated..waste of money... GG needs to do something about their price... They are just going to be like any other game engine company after awhile it looks like.... Get ready indies... we will soon be screwed I think.
heres the scenerio as I see it..
GG: Oh its pricy yes.. but look at all the features...
Me: Who cares all it is, is TGEA with more stuff in the engine added for better effects...
GG: No we have redone everything
Me: Why if TGEA was great, are you calling it crap?
GG: No TGEA is a fully functional engine which we are proud of.
Me: Then why didnt you just update the source and add in the extra effects you coded in and just call it an update?
MY THOGUHT: instead of the regular price which would be 3x as low as we know we can get outa you people. so it jumped it up 3x as much concidering though already bought tgea... a chunk full of you people can afford t3d.
IF You even cut your price down by half, you would get more people to buy it in the long run, but I dont think your thinking of that because the updates form what weve seen so far from the other engines we the customer have done ourselves. Can we expect the same form this engine? if not... then why couldnt you give the full support during the last engine products, but can now?
Me: So your not sticking with the statement of you guys caring about the individual indie... So by the way that you have rolled out with tge and tgea in your production, was the lower price the reason because you used them as a beta product until you came out with better knowing you would at least have a bit of a community then? Just like we do when we make our games?
Im sorry if my opinion is one sided and may only speak for myself, but I do find it horrible the way that T3D was rolled out. I dont care if there was 50 people working on the project of t3d, we didnt ask for that or ask for you to quit giving us updates on a product that we paid for already. Pretty soon Unreal is going to have a bigger base of customers I think because the price of the next engine after t3d will be a couple grand... might as well go all out after that eh? Im sorry, im just not happy with this whole thing. Well lets all dig into our pockets once again, it wont be the last time cause if you have not noticed with the trend... the prices keep going up and up, just wait till they are 2000 for T3DA Torque 3d Advanced.... yes thats a joke but I could see it.
I just feel as though TGE and TGEA were being used as beta versions. Lack of documentation, lack of this and that. Though people may say it was all over the forums.... yes but by who? us.
So... heres another question, why can t3d not be just a update to TGEA? I mean, you see in the package of 1.8.1 of TGEA that it gives you a T3D demo... REAAALY. lets just go inside of that source and see how much has changed. In other words. new graphic codings and a few new tools. ... Is this not the same type of what TGEA was when you released it? This is just like the TGE then got upgraded to tgea type thing and price jumped alittle. The code in t3d is not fully "brand new". obviously. So when does the price raises stop? I cant wait to see T3DAdvanced price when it rolls out. And it will not stop then.
Im sorry, I just cant make any sense out of this whole situation.
GG You really should reconsider the price for T3D compared to who has already bought the tge and tgea along with the "tools and addons" for each, considering they are garbage unless we update them ourselves.
I will be buying t3d though from what ive said, so please take note im just in surprise to business practices in which the company has gone about this. Which it should of been half the price you are selling it for if you want to be fair to the indie like your company statements say.
Anyways, just some of my thoughts.. ahh I can breath again lol.
Sorry GG, I love the products and love my team using such, just dont become like the other engine companies and go back on your word to the indie. This is the only engine place alot of us look up to. You inspire and motivate even a hobbist, just be sure your on the right path and not going off like it seems.
heres the scenerio as I see it..
GG: Oh its pricy yes.. but look at all the features...
Me: Who cares all it is, is TGEA with more stuff in the engine added for better effects...
GG: No we have redone everything
Me: Why if TGEA was great, are you calling it crap?
GG: No TGEA is a fully functional engine which we are proud of.
Me: Then why didnt you just update the source and add in the extra effects you coded in and just call it an update?
MY THOGUHT: instead of the regular price which would be 3x as low as we know we can get outa you people. so it jumped it up 3x as much concidering though already bought tgea... a chunk full of you people can afford t3d.
IF You even cut your price down by half, you would get more people to buy it in the long run, but I dont think your thinking of that because the updates form what weve seen so far from the other engines we the customer have done ourselves. Can we expect the same form this engine? if not... then why couldnt you give the full support during the last engine products, but can now?
Me: So your not sticking with the statement of you guys caring about the individual indie... So by the way that you have rolled out with tge and tgea in your production, was the lower price the reason because you used them as a beta product until you came out with better knowing you would at least have a bit of a community then? Just like we do when we make our games?
Im sorry if my opinion is one sided and may only speak for myself, but I do find it horrible the way that T3D was rolled out. I dont care if there was 50 people working on the project of t3d, we didnt ask for that or ask for you to quit giving us updates on a product that we paid for already. Pretty soon Unreal is going to have a bigger base of customers I think because the price of the next engine after t3d will be a couple grand... might as well go all out after that eh? Im sorry, im just not happy with this whole thing. Well lets all dig into our pockets once again, it wont be the last time cause if you have not noticed with the trend... the prices keep going up and up, just wait till they are 2000 for T3DA Torque 3d Advanced.... yes thats a joke but I could see it.
I just feel as though TGE and TGEA were being used as beta versions. Lack of documentation, lack of this and that. Though people may say it was all over the forums.... yes but by who? us.
So... heres another question, why can t3d not be just a update to TGEA? I mean, you see in the package of 1.8.1 of TGEA that it gives you a T3D demo... REAAALY. lets just go inside of that source and see how much has changed. In other words. new graphic codings and a few new tools. ... Is this not the same type of what TGEA was when you released it? This is just like the TGE then got upgraded to tgea type thing and price jumped alittle. The code in t3d is not fully "brand new". obviously. So when does the price raises stop? I cant wait to see T3DAdvanced price when it rolls out. And it will not stop then.
Im sorry, I just cant make any sense out of this whole situation.
GG You really should reconsider the price for T3D compared to who has already bought the tge and tgea along with the "tools and addons" for each, considering they are garbage unless we update them ourselves.
I will be buying t3d though from what ive said, so please take note im just in surprise to business practices in which the company has gone about this. Which it should of been half the price you are selling it for if you want to be fair to the indie like your company statements say.
Anyways, just some of my thoughts.. ahh I can breath again lol.
Sorry GG, I love the products and love my team using such, just dont become like the other engine companies and go back on your word to the indie. This is the only engine place alot of us look up to. You inspire and motivate even a hobbist, just be sure your on the right path and not going off like it seems.
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#42
- It's not talked about much, or .ever. really but there were some big events that shook the company gameplans. ..and of course, this is just my version/take on the events:
1. IAC bought GG.
2. with the IAC purchase, many of the core GG team members simply left for other ventures.
3. With those core team members gone, their positions as employees needed to be filled. With those replacements picking up a codebase, where the old team left off, I am surprised they even made any attempt to fix TGEA. (Think of it as: almost like a 10 mile run without a map of the track..and you have 1 hour to complete it).
Life happens, business happens...I just hope that IAC does not sell GG as soon as T3D increases GG's value/worth. However, that *is* business and that is to be expected at some point in time IMO. No matter what promises the employees give to licensees, it is up to the big boss-men/women to make the big decisions(which, in turn, overpower/negate the employee promises). As GG is currently an asset to IAC, a publicly held business entity, You should expect that T3D won't ever make version2.0 before the company is split into sections and sold to EA to be used as Purina dog chow.(pardon the level of extremity in the last statement)
..that is the video game industry in a nut shell.IMO.
//
(This post was merely a brief description of what I perceived to have happened to TGEA and GG after the GG/IAC buyout..if any of it is wrong, just correct me. I would like to learn more about that time-period anyways.)
09/21/2009 (4:34 pm)
Robert, if you knew what the company has been through since the start of TGEA..up until now.. it may help you to understand why they may have appeared so unorganized for close to a year & why TGEA 'evolved' into T3D. - It's not talked about much, or .ever. really but there were some big events that shook the company gameplans. ..and of course, this is just my version/take on the events:
1. IAC bought GG.
2. with the IAC purchase, many of the core GG team members simply left for other ventures.
3. With those core team members gone, their positions as employees needed to be filled. With those replacements picking up a codebase, where the old team left off, I am surprised they even made any attempt to fix TGEA. (Think of it as: almost like a 10 mile run without a map of the track..and you have 1 hour to complete it).
Life happens, business happens...I just hope that IAC does not sell GG as soon as T3D increases GG's value/worth. However, that *is* business and that is to be expected at some point in time IMO. No matter what promises the employees give to licensees, it is up to the big boss-men/women to make the big decisions(which, in turn, overpower/negate the employee promises). As GG is currently an asset to IAC, a publicly held business entity, You should expect that T3D won't ever make version2.0 before the company is split into sections and sold to EA to be used as Purina dog chow.(pardon the level of extremity in the last statement)
..that is the video game industry in a nut shell.IMO.
//
(This post was merely a brief description of what I perceived to have happened to TGEA and GG after the GG/IAC buyout..if any of it is wrong, just correct me. I would like to learn more about that time-period anyways.)
#43
09/21/2009 (7:48 pm)
Internet Matlocks, unite! 
#44
09/21/2009 (9:38 pm)
As long as its sold to EA and not Activision =P
#45
09/22/2009 (12:28 am)
Edited
#46
09/22/2009 (12:31 am)
Good luck Robert! 
#47
In reality, GG (the new GG and the old) do care about the indie. How do I know this? Becouse I've been here a while. I've gone thru these conversations before.
To answer your unasked question about the price jump. The former GG kept the engine price too low. They were losing money with every sale. You just aren't going to make any money paying devs for all their hours of work, and then charging pennys for the app.
In order for GG to take Torque to the next level, they Had to raise the price. (you should have seen the flame posts when they gave out the price for tgea. That was the old GG) They just Can't keep upgrading the engine forever without a price increase. They would go broke.
I was disapointed with the price increase too. It put Torque 3D out of my price range. That doesn't make GG evil or a bad company. It doesn't make them Indie Un friendly. It just made good buisness since for them, and forced me to decide wether I wanted it bad enough to save for it.
Tgea is a great engine and the one I work with. (tge was simpler to work with, but that's another flame post) I'll keep working with it. It does most of what I need, and for the things it cant, I can study to find a way to make it do it.
As for the bugs, there are posts all over the tgea area with fixes for them. All you have to do is to roll them into the engine and compile.
(You can't expect GG to do Everything for you)
It's a shame you've walked away from a great engine, but then, torque isn't for everyone. I wish you the best in whatever engine you choose.
09/22/2009 (7:17 am)
Wow Robert.In reality, GG (the new GG and the old) do care about the indie. How do I know this? Becouse I've been here a while. I've gone thru these conversations before.
To answer your unasked question about the price jump. The former GG kept the engine price too low. They were losing money with every sale. You just aren't going to make any money paying devs for all their hours of work, and then charging pennys for the app.
In order for GG to take Torque to the next level, they Had to raise the price. (you should have seen the flame posts when they gave out the price for tgea. That was the old GG) They just Can't keep upgrading the engine forever without a price increase. They would go broke.
I was disapointed with the price increase too. It put Torque 3D out of my price range. That doesn't make GG evil or a bad company. It doesn't make them Indie Un friendly. It just made good buisness since for them, and forced me to decide wether I wanted it bad enough to save for it.
Tgea is a great engine and the one I work with. (tge was simpler to work with, but that's another flame post) I'll keep working with it. It does most of what I need, and for the things it cant, I can study to find a way to make it do it.
As for the bugs, there are posts all over the tgea area with fixes for them. All you have to do is to roll them into the engine and compile.
(You can't expect GG to do Everything for you)
It's a shame you've walked away from a great engine, but then, torque isn't for everyone. I wish you the best in whatever engine you choose.
#48
No getting rid of me though muahahaha
09/22/2009 (3:09 pm)
Yeah it's a pity to see people leave in such a fashion and making decisions to increase prices and change products is always going to cause some people to leave, just as improving the tech will attract lots of new people too.No getting rid of me though muahahaha
#49
""To answer your *unasked* question about the price jump.""
rofl...Rowley must be a mind reader!
09/22/2009 (7:21 pm)
@Mr. Rowley..re-read this sentence you posted! ..I can't stop laughing at it's irony even though I understand what you meant to say: ""To answer your *unasked* question about the price jump.""
rofl...Rowley must be a mind reader!
#51
Yeah, It kinda sucks to see everyone else upgrading to the newest tech, but hey thats the way life goes.
I think it all comes down to the Community as well, sure the T3D is $1000 and I'll never be able to afford it, But there are many that have been able to afford it and there will be LOTS of work done by those to make the price tag even more worth it.
@Stephen:
@eb: I knew something happened with GG because of the Site Re-Design, never knew that extra info before you pointed it out though... Thanks Matlock!
P.S.: Purina Dog Chow is giving EA credit, its more like generic brand dog food, Don't pardon my level of extremity. :)
09/23/2009 (9:34 am)
I'm still using TGE1.5.2 and though there are many things that I would like in the newer versions, I myself would rather stay comfortable with what I've spent and what I've been working on.Yeah, It kinda sucks to see everyone else upgrading to the newest tech, but hey thats the way life goes.
Quote:That quote is applied to Bugs, Resources, Tutorials, T3D, TGEA and TGE...
As for the bugs, there are posts all over the tgea area with fixes for them. All you have to do is to roll them into the engine and compile.
(You can't expect GG to do Everything for you)
I think it all comes down to the Community as well, sure the T3D is $1000 and I'll never be able to afford it, But there are many that have been able to afford it and there will be LOTS of work done by those to make the price tag even more worth it.
@Stephen:
Quote:ROFLMAO, Oh come on... an "Exploder" is SO not that cool! :)
A Ford Explorer is just an "upgraded" Model T.
@eb: I knew something happened with GG because of the Site Re-Design, never knew that extra info before you pointed it out though... Thanks Matlock!
P.S.: Purina Dog Chow is giving EA credit, its more like generic brand dog food, Don't pardon my level of extremity. :)
#52
09/23/2009 (6:13 pm)
@Rowley, I think you took that badly...it wasn't meant to be taken that way. I suppose I read the thread differently. Sorry for any confusion.
#53
no problems here. :-)
09/27/2009 (7:52 pm)
Hehe, I figured you meant it in a joking way. It reads odd, but hey, it was the only wording I could think at that early hour of the morning. :-Dno problems here. :-)
#54
09/29/2009 (7:45 am)
Torque3d discount only $295.00 for tgea! = 705$ + Purelight = 300$ + Verve = 130$ grand total 1135$,iam just a student,this is really utter cr*p for me,torque has become bloatware,trying to get into modular features concept with worst support on top enlarging their developer base and more funding money,i see where the torque will become in the future,it's not anymore for indie developer.Even unity3d the true first cross platform dev tools for indie,has indie side of their wonderful tools,no modular paid system,just plain focussing on their main product,so good bye gg.You don't have any heart anymore,it's pure business not personal isn't it? 
#55
$295 is a 100% discount for the cost of TGEA. Most companies do not provide a 100% discount, so your argument makes little sense there. Purelight and Verve are not things that you have to buy any more than the products that people have added on to Unity are products that you have to buy. Or commercial plugins for Max or Maya or Photoshop that can often cost more than the package itself.
I can understand that you're unhappy with the pricing; but with the feature set that we provide, the engine is more comparable to Unity Pro except that we include the complete source code without an expensive license.
I don't think you understand your argument or what Torque 3D provides. I wish you luck with Unity. They're a good company with a strong engine. From the way you present yourself, you don't seem to understand the benefit of either Unity or Torque 3D. And as a point of reference, neither of them were the "true first cross platform dev tools for indie". That designation pre-dates either GG or Otee whether you look at commercial engines or open-source engine projects. I'm not quite sure where you pulled that from.
09/29/2009 (10:49 am)
@Aditya$295 is a 100% discount for the cost of TGEA. Most companies do not provide a 100% discount, so your argument makes little sense there. Purelight and Verve are not things that you have to buy any more than the products that people have added on to Unity are products that you have to buy. Or commercial plugins for Max or Maya or Photoshop that can often cost more than the package itself.
I can understand that you're unhappy with the pricing; but with the feature set that we provide, the engine is more comparable to Unity Pro except that we include the complete source code without an expensive license.
I don't think you understand your argument or what Torque 3D provides. I wish you luck with Unity. They're a good company with a strong engine. From the way you present yourself, you don't seem to understand the benefit of either Unity or Torque 3D. And as a point of reference, neither of them were the "true first cross platform dev tools for indie". That designation pre-dates either GG or Otee whether you look at commercial engines or open-source engine projects. I'm not quite sure where you pulled that from.
#56
I'm evaluating the TGB to get a feel and understanding of the Torque concept. I can only agree that the product is too buggy and should have gone one or two more spins in the debug phase before it was released.
The documentation is a joke as they state "full documentation". I was actually searching for the "full documentation" for 4 days before I realized that the list of function names WAS the "full documentation".
In many case you end up with a broken link or:
"You've followed a link to a page that doesn't exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button."
After browsing around in the forums I understand that this has always been an issue with GG's products.
Before The T3D was released we could read that there would be an "indie" license available containing (the 7 first bullets if you didn't change that too):
- Advanced Physics
- Collada Content Pipeline
- Material Editor
- Unified Terrain System
- Datablock Editor
- Decal Editor
- Allows for Non-game Projects
I don't exactly remember the price, but it was around 300$ and affordable considering that you only got a third of the feature list and the history of releasing buggy products and incomplete documentation.
With buggy products I don't mean 100% bug free, but at least you should not have to find GUI bugs the first day you use the product.
I'm now very skeptical to GG as a company because it seems that they can suddenly change strategy. What will guarantee that GG don't do this again, and again...
What makes me most disappointed is that GG first say one thing and then they do another...
You should also keep in mind that the world is bigger than America and there are other countries not using USD. For a developer in east Europe 1000$ can be several month of salary.
You are several times coming back to the fact that some other hobbyists are spending more than 1000$ on their hobbies, but the people with this amount of money are probably those who can afford your 1000$ license.
I have spent way over 1000$ on other hobbies but not all at once. It has been a few 100$ here and there over the time. By having the entry level at 1000$, you need to have 1000$ available upfront before you even can look at it.
You (GG) are also coming back to that TGE and TGEA are still there for a low price, you just forgot to mention that you will stop selling them from the 1 of November 2009. I found this information in one of your developer (Brett Seyler) blogs by coincident.
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/18393
It is also a bit tricky to find the links to actually buy TGE and TGEA because they are only referenced in the description of T3D and iPhone!?!.
TGEA: www.garagegames.com/products/torque-3d/tgea
TGE: www.garagegames.com/products/tge
As I understand the next release of TGB will be as T2D. How can I trust that you don't increase that price to 1000$ too?
When TGE and TGEA disappear from the 1 of November there will not be any low-price level to start from. The entrance fee will start at 1000$ and climb up.
I'm just very disappointed and feel ripped off even before I bought any product from GG.
09/30/2009 (9:00 am)
I'm new to GG products and I'm looking for a game platform I can grow with. I looked at GG's product line and felt comfortable that they always had a low-price version so you could move upwards when it suited you.I'm evaluating the TGB to get a feel and understanding of the Torque concept. I can only agree that the product is too buggy and should have gone one or two more spins in the debug phase before it was released.
The documentation is a joke as they state "full documentation". I was actually searching for the "full documentation" for 4 days before I realized that the list of function names WAS the "full documentation".
In many case you end up with a broken link or:
"You've followed a link to a page that doesn't exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, just click your browser's back button."
After browsing around in the forums I understand that this has always been an issue with GG's products.
Before The T3D was released we could read that there would be an "indie" license available containing (the 7 first bullets if you didn't change that too):
- Advanced Physics
- Collada Content Pipeline
- Material Editor
- Unified Terrain System
- Datablock Editor
- Decal Editor
- Allows for Non-game Projects
I don't exactly remember the price, but it was around 300$ and affordable considering that you only got a third of the feature list and the history of releasing buggy products and incomplete documentation.
With buggy products I don't mean 100% bug free, but at least you should not have to find GUI bugs the first day you use the product.
I'm now very skeptical to GG as a company because it seems that they can suddenly change strategy. What will guarantee that GG don't do this again, and again...
What makes me most disappointed is that GG first say one thing and then they do another...
You should also keep in mind that the world is bigger than America and there are other countries not using USD. For a developer in east Europe 1000$ can be several month of salary.
You are several times coming back to the fact that some other hobbyists are spending more than 1000$ on their hobbies, but the people with this amount of money are probably those who can afford your 1000$ license.
I have spent way over 1000$ on other hobbies but not all at once. It has been a few 100$ here and there over the time. By having the entry level at 1000$, you need to have 1000$ available upfront before you even can look at it.
You (GG) are also coming back to that TGE and TGEA are still there for a low price, you just forgot to mention that you will stop selling them from the 1 of November 2009. I found this information in one of your developer (Brett Seyler) blogs by coincident.
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/18393
It is also a bit tricky to find the links to actually buy TGE and TGEA because they are only referenced in the description of T3D and iPhone!?!.
TGEA: www.garagegames.com/products/torque-3d/tgea
TGE: www.garagegames.com/products/tge
As I understand the next release of TGB will be as T2D. How can I trust that you don't increase that price to 1000$ too?
When TGE and TGEA disappear from the 1 of November there will not be any low-price level to start from. The entrance fee will start at 1000$ and climb up.
I'm just very disappointed and feel ripped off even before I bought any product from GG.
#57
How exactly.. does one feel "ripped off" by a company that the person has never done business with.. ever?
on edit:
I hate to squabble with you David, but Unity Pro (which is a fine engine) does not compare with T3D at all, it's not in the same league.
09/30/2009 (10:12 am)
Quote:I'm just very disappointed and feel ripped off even before I bought any product from GG.
How exactly.. does one feel "ripped off" by a company that the person has never done business with.. ever?
on edit:
Quote:I can understand that you're unhappy with the pricing; but with the feature set that we provide, the engine is more comparable to Unity Pro except that we include the complete source code without an expensive license.
I hate to squabble with you David, but Unity Pro (which is a fine engine) does not compare with T3D at all, it's not in the same league.
#58
I know that they have completely different targets, but when it comes to a simple comparison (which is pretty much all one can do), Unity Pro and T3D are much closer than Unity Indie and T3D. But then, people also ask me to compare SDK-based engines like TrueVision 3D and whether they are "the same" as T3D. The fundamental designs and targets are completely different, regardless of how many bullet point features they share (ZOMG! Normal maps are supported!).
I had a guy decide to go with Leadwerks recently because he thought it would make his Blitz3D models look better. Leadwerks is a nice engine with pretty features and high hardware benchmarks...but badly designed, horribly modeled, and atrociously textured assets are going to look bad (and often worse in a high-detail engine) regardless of the engine's featureset. Dropping crap into Crytek doesn't turn it to gold. You still have crap; just crap rendered in Crytek.
09/30/2009 (10:56 am)
@Andrew BradyI know that they have completely different targets, but when it comes to a simple comparison (which is pretty much all one can do), Unity Pro and T3D are much closer than Unity Indie and T3D. But then, people also ask me to compare SDK-based engines like TrueVision 3D and whether they are "the same" as T3D. The fundamental designs and targets are completely different, regardless of how many bullet point features they share (ZOMG! Normal maps are supported!).
I had a guy decide to go with Leadwerks recently because he thought it would make his Blitz3D models look better. Leadwerks is a nice engine with pretty features and high hardware benchmarks...but badly designed, horribly modeled, and atrociously textured assets are going to look bad (and often worse in a high-detail engine) regardless of the engine's featureset. Dropping crap into Crytek doesn't turn it to gold. You still have crap; just crap rendered in Crytek.
#59
- You have to deal with overly-logical hard heads like me.
- Fanbois that, well, enough said just by the name "fanboi"
- The uninformed novice that is too impatient to make a rational decision
- The crazy people that think everything should free and a smile should ride in the side-car.
- The People who compare engines in lengthy fashion and then make their decision on whether or not their artwork will look better in which engine...as if the engines were magical.
..I could go on and on.. but for right now, I bow to you and your patience good sir. ;) ..I would have ulcers.
09/30/2009 (11:11 am)
I truly don't know how you handle your 'tasks' so well David. - You have to deal with overly-logical hard heads like me.
- Fanbois that, well, enough said just by the name "fanboi"
- The uninformed novice that is too impatient to make a rational decision
- The crazy people that think everything should free and a smile should ride in the side-car.
- The People who compare engines in lengthy fashion and then make their decision on whether or not their artwork will look better in which engine...as if the engines were magical.
..I could go on and on.. but for right now, I bow to you and your patience good sir. ;) ..I would have ulcers.
#60
09/30/2009 (11:14 am)
That's assuming I don't have ulcers! :)
Torque 3D Owner Stephen Zepp
A Ford Explorer is just an "upgraded" Model T.
just sayin'...