Is there any Downsides of using Milkshape?

#1 Yes, a number of modelling tools and techniques supported by 3DS aren't in milkshape. That would be why one is so much cheaper than the other.

Milkshape has what you need for basic low poly game models, though.

#2 That's not really a problem when doing game modelling. Milkshape isn't such a bad tool when it comes to low polygon models.
The problem is that the milkshape exporter isn't completed. No dsq export possible, no levels of detail, the models exported from milkshape have horrible mipmap effect (where in max nomipmap can be set),no SORT,.... So, unless this exporter gets updated Milkshape isn't the best tool around. Its good enough for programmer art, but if you want good art you will have a problem becuase most likely the exporter will screw it up.

#3 Has anyone tried to port the max plugins to gMax? GMax is free and is designed to support all of the features that game designers were using in Max. I do know that the 3DS plugins don't work with gMax, but it max be as simple as the plugin version number (but is probably the API as well).

John.

#4 It's not that simple.

1) Releasing Gmax plugins requires a Gmax developer's license, which is a LOT of money.

2) Even if you ignore the licensing/legal problem, technically, Gmax and 3DS max plugins are _NOT_ compatible.

3) Gmax is only good for low poly modelling anyway - many of the 3DS Max tools have been removed. Might as well spend the effort improving the milkshape exporter.

#5 I didn't realize that the sdk license was expensive. I guess if the product is free they have to gouge someone.

As for the poly-res, I still think the handful of modifiers that they give you are a vast improvement over Milkshape.

John.

#6

Quote: I guess if the product is free they have to gouge someone.

no such thing as a free lunch!

Anyone that ships GMax for "free" has to pay something like $35,000 per X number of copies sold or something like that.

And most "free" software has some sort of short coming or limitation that costs time, which is money despite the fact that some people think to the contrary :)

#7 There are a number of really good free 3D editors available, including:

Blender: http://www.blender.org
OpenFx: http://www.openfx.org
Wings3D: http://www.wings3d.org

Another one which looks interesting but sadly hasn't yet been released (though it was originally due to be released a few months ago) is OpenArchitect3d:

http://www.openarchitect3d.com

Of course, you'd have to write your own Torque exporter for them, or have someone else do it for you, but all three of the modelers listed are very good, feature-wise.
The biggest issue with them when compared to MAX or Maya tends to be the user interface elements. On the modeling side, you can do virtually anything with Blender, for example, but you'll have to spend a long time getting used to its awkward UI.

#8

Quote:no such thing as a free lunch!

Hey I'm trying to optimistic here! :)

And I agree with you on the free software. Its always 80% of the way there and the last 20% creates about 90% of your stumbling blocks. I still give them credit for releasing free software though.

#9 no spline lathing, no advanced modifiers, not mesh extruding (Im not sure about that one), various other absences, Im not sure if it hands bone type animation either (hard to use bones when the skin modifier isnt possible)

#10 No GNU/Lunch?

/me walks away sad.

#11 Don't confuse the exporter's problems with actual program limits. MS does support (as of 1.6.5) lathing, has always supported extrusion as far as I know. It assigns vertexes to bones just as skin does, although doesnt have weighting (yet). The MS interface is almost excruciatingly simple to master. The bones are far easier to manipulate than Max's. As far as most of the advanced options that Max supports, you'll never use the majority of them for low-poly game modeling. Using Max for this purpose realistically is like getting a tactical nuke to go deer hunting... 90% of MS failings in Torque/Tribes2 is the result of the limited exporter, not MS itself. I don't say that to disparage the efforts of those who have developed it, and thank them for their efforts, but it is the reason that MS users can't have *.dsq's, visibility or blend animations, can't set material paths, etc., etc. IFL's, vertex weighting, and Footsteps are about the only things you're likely to use that MS doesn't support.
If you want to model for UT, UT2003, Q2, Q3, HL, CS, Serious Sam, Genesis, Max Payne, the Sims, MOHAA, Game Studio, Blitz Basic, and more, MS works wonderfully. To be blunt, it has long puzzled me that there is such limited support for MS in Torque, given GG's obvious dedication to the indie game artist otherwise- many potential customers who might easily cough up $120 to get Torque and MS probably shy away once they realize they'll really have to put out over ten times that amount to get decent graphics, even though MS could do the job with a completed exporter... Not flaming,just my $0.02... ;)

#12 I think MilkShape does all the basics and is a pretty easy tool to use, though there are a few things that really annoy me (which is why I haven't put much time into it). Several of the 3D shapes which shipped in Marble Blast were built using MilkShape, so it can definitely be used for production art :)

The main issues (some of which were pointed out by Ward): no detailing, no translucent poly sorting, and no triangle stripping.

#13 I'd HIGHLY recommend Wings3d. Kicks ye arse :)

#14 If there is a good free cross-platform modeler (besides Blender) I'd like to hear about it :) Wings3D doesn't support any form of animation though, which doesn't make it very useful for us.

#15 Modeling for a T2 mod, the main difficulties I've experienced with MS are with players and wheeled vehicles- I have yet to get either working properly- but it has worked beautifully for static shapes, weapons, packs, and floating/flying vehicles. Those difficulties are due to the exporter's inability to support multiple collision meshes and/or *.dsq's. From reading these forums, I'm not the only one having these specific problems, which was my intended point- MS would in fact be an ideal, inexpensive low-poly modeler for many of the games that can be developed from Torque if the exporter was enhanced. Since most of the plugins that MS has are third-party, it is possible that some of its actual shortcomings could be addressed that way through the MS SDK.
Again, I'm just trying to point out a strategy that I feel could make Torque more successful, not flame anyone or anything. In fact, I'm one of those hypothetical "lost" customers who haven't bought Torque because I can't afford Max.... ;)

#16 The exporter does support multiple collision meshes and you can make wheeled vehicles and player objects. You can't export DSQ files, but I don't see that as a major problem, you can work around that one.

One other problem with MilkShape and DSQ files is that you can't use DSQ files generated by Max (which includes the example in Torque). This is a problem with the way MilkShape normalizes it's bones. It may be possible to un-mangle the bones in the exporter, but it would be a bit of work... it should be fixed in MilkShape. I've emailed the author about it, but I think he considers it a "feature" so I'm not expecting a fix.

#17 I saw some comments about Blender. I'm just curious: How many folks would use blender if there were an exporter? Also, if there are any experienced Blender/Torque users reading, can you think of Torque-ish things that could not be created in Blender and then exported?

#18 I for one would use Blender3D if there was an exporter. Also, there a new boy in town: CaligaryTrueSpace 3.2 (FREE VERSION) ... and MadCapMac is doing the exporter for it.

:D

Alex

#19 Blender's nasty. The interface isn't as hard to master as people make out, but the fact that it's entirely vertex modelling is horrible. Gotta love Wings3d! If wings could get weighted skeletal animation, native UV texturing and better keyboard integration (it's all menu menu menu) then it'd be absolutely perfect.
Mebbe by v2 :)

#20 I love wings3D also. I end up using wings to model and uvmap. By the way, wings has a very good uvmapper built in....takes about a day to get used to, but then it is the best i've ever used. I then export in 3ds format and put into CharacterFX for adding skeleton and animations. Once all the animations are done, i can cut and paste keyframes together to bring all animation sequences together and save that as a milkshape file. Then I open in milkshape and run the exporter for Torque. I don't like using Milkshape for modeling or animation...extremely cludgy compared to using wings and characterFX. Although, i will use Milkshape for single poly layers for hair or leaves on trees , things like that.

Also, wings has wonderful keyboard integration. You can open a menu and hold the mouse over a option you want to change or add a keyboard shortcut to. Hit the Insert key and press the new key you want to use...that's it, simple.