Has garage games abondoned the indie?

#21

Quote:It is the community that makes them awesome. The more expensive the engine gets the more community members will drop out.

It's obvious you haven't seen the activity that takes place within the Torque3D forum -- activity that easily outstrips that in both the TGE & TGEa forums easily. There have already been dozens of resources submitted primarily for Torque 3D -- and it's not even out of Beta yet!

The Torque community has actually grown over the past several months (with a large number of new users) and is even more awesome than what it was before.

#22 I'm one of the people who would buy T3D if I had the money to spare, just to learn hacking the engine. I think the price is good for what you get. TGEA is more indie-friendly pricewise, but that more than doubling of the price for T3D gives you a nice bunch of tools not seen in other products in the same price range.

What is the value of the different Torque engines over time when you adjust for inflation? TGE remaining at $100 for a long time probably made it cheaper after some years :)

#23 Last time I checked, the T3D license options page indicated that the Basic license price point would be $250 and available AFTER it's released. The price point that everybody seems to be complaining about is the pro-level price anyway which gets you into the beta game... I think it's completely reasonable to keep the beta noise to a minimum of folks who're willing to commit to that price level until the great folks @ Torque have dropped the final code for v1. Having lurked in the private T3D forum for a bit, I can say that they're getting a lot of great feedback and community contributions just from the $1,000 a plate audience alone. Engage the patience function or deliver some pizzas in the moonlight and save up the requisite pennies. ;-)

#24 Like I said maybe I just need to see the 250 dollar engine. Perhaps this is much to do about nothing. Time will tell.

#25

Quote:DMB wrote:

@Phoenix_GG
It's been a little while since I've been over there. I hope that licensees are accepting of the change (since it doesn't affect existing licensees). Eric's a strong developer with a nice engine; I want to see him succeed financially. He already has a strong developer base supporting him in spirit.

People over there seem pretty accepting of this change. They realize that such a business model is unsustainable...especially with this bigger update, adding a physics system for one.

www.terathon.com/c4engine/videos/physics1.wmv
www.terathon.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7815


The friction is set a bit low in the video. Also, the video capture spazzed at a crucial moment so you dont see the boxes initially bounce.

#26

Quote:As far as I know, there is one other commercially available engine shipping a pre-pass lighting solution: Crytek 3.

Why exactly should Torque either: a) Devalue its code, or b) cease development, because some people are upset they can't afford the latest-greatest? I'm so confused...

What is so hard to understand?!?

Before you anounced there will be a 250$ version and now there is only a 1000$ version available. I started to evaluate TGB comfortable with that GG seems to always have a low-price "indie" license. Now I feel ripped off because I cant afford 1000$ and I have already spent almost the full evaluation time on TGB for nothing (since my long term plan is to move over to T3D).

I can understand if 250$ feels to low but beeing so greedy to quadruple the price? I could go for 500$ with some stripped functionalities (as you anounced in the begining, without path and river tools).

For some 1000$ is a one month salary.

#27 Don't get me wrong, I understand that money is difficult to part with at the moment. But to say that GarageGames has abandoned the "indie" is a rediculous comment.

Personally I think part of this problem is that the term "indie" is a loaded name that we should stop using. As it is right now that term covers a wide range from students, to hobbyists, to small unfunded studios, small funded studios to large AAA developers. The bitter irony of it all is that every level of the indie term spends at minimum a thousand of dollars a year on tools, its just how people value each tool and what they contribute to their efforts that is the problem.

I think a term that would better suit this conversation is "double edged" sword seems to apply well here. Why? Well the simple fact is that people have been begging and screaming for a speedier, more advanced and more capable version of Torque for years. Now its here and people are upset that all these fantastic new features and abilities cost them a bit more money?

Guess you cannot please everyone and thats the name of this game.

#28

Quote:
For some 1000$ is a one month salary.

You state this like you are making a point. You may want to re-think the point. For some, $100 is a one month salary, for some $10,000, and for some $100,000.

The value of Torque is not subjective based on your buying power.

#29

Quote:
For some 1000$ is a one month salary

easy solution, you make 1000 a month take $20 dollars (that's only 8% of your monthly income)a week and place it aside, do this for 50 weeks, just under a year, and poof suddenly you can buy T3D its easy, all it takes is a little desire plus a little discipline. This whole attitude of I want it now is a bit disturbing...

#30 Sell content packs, release a bunch of $5 games, do some contract work... there's lots of ways for the indie to raise money.

The removal of the "games-only" license restriction allows greater room for flexibility too. I can now return to an abandoned side job of architectural walkthroughs!

Quote:For some 1000$ is a one month salary

I haven't worked a real job in a few years. I like being in a band and often get paid in beer ;D

#31 I've been sober for ages to balance the books and afford pureLight on top of this year's major purchase of T3D.

... well a week, but it seems a long time.

and that stabbing pain in the lower right side of my chest has really subsided ...

#32 i love how all these posts qoute that 1000 bucks a month seems like a standard.. im not sure where alot of folks work. or their families. But alot of guys even at 9 bucks a hour x 40 hours a week.. 360 bucks a week, 1440 minus the taxmans cut between5 and 15% off the top -insurance options-rent-food-transportation... sure you could save up 20 bucks a month for 50 weeks.. really? is that the GG answer to a low budget engine. "Hey in a year you too can afford the engine" What about the addons thats coming.. lets have some other side of the coin here. Some of us arent as blessed as the rest.

@Micheal thats a great idea. But 5 dollar games? with what engine? you just announced you will be cutting the cheaper engine? So hobbyist that might want to create games.. well its the chicken and the egg argument.

#33 Sorry but if you are truely in that situation you have more critical things to worry about than making games and whether or not GarageGames is screwing over an "indie" with their new pricing. You should be worried about putting food on the table, not buying a computer, having an internet connection and most importantly of all making a game.

Making games costs money, lots of money, and the game engine is a small drop in the bucket with regards to everything that is truely needed to even have a chance of just making it to the finish line. Im sorry if saying that offends anyone, but it seems like people are getting too caught up on how much 1 small detail of making a game affects them when there are so many others that are far more significant that will hinder your ability to succeed.

#34 We never called it a low budget engine. But that doesn't change the fact that it is, compared to the rest of the engines of comparable power.

Affordable is relative, and sometimes people need to save money to buy something that they feel is worth it. I have to do it all the time, as do millions of other people.

If GG wasn't able to make money off of their engines by charging what they believe to be fair, there would be no GG, nor engines.

#35 Let me have my go. There is nothing wrong with the price for what you are given. I myself am a college student with no job and I used money I saved up over the past years for it(I save and invest in stocks). So I don't understand people saying it costs too much. It costs what its value means to you. I saw it as a sound investment that can in return make me more than I spent. If a second year undergraduate college student with no job(also never worked to this day for money) could afford it, then there is nothing wrong with the price. Most kids spend their allowance. I used to save it since high school and started stocks at the age of 18.

There is no need to assume it's expensive. If it's not worth the money to you, this engine isn't for you. I've never worked any job and could afford this engine. I never asked my parents for money. I saved since highschool. When I saw this engine, I knew I wanted to put some of my saved money into it. It is well worth the $1000 between the engine, resources, community, and even add-ons like the MMOkit. I'm happy they kept it that affordable when they could have easily raised it because it's worth much more.

#36 Thank you for the kind words Avneet.

I know that 1000$ is not going to be something everyone can afford right off the bat, but that is the price that GG arrived at after *much* deliberation.

I think it's worth it, and I'm glad you do too.

#37 "Has Unity abandoned the Indie?"

times are changing good indie engines are going to start costing a bit more. companies are spending more money and production time to make these fabulous engines. get use to it.

#38 "Has Unity abandoned the Indie?"

that sorta thinking (and i use that term generously) is just a lot of crap...

[1] look around and see how many 'indies' have licensed Unity, only to find that it doesn't suit their needs (for whatever reason)... and their $1400 'investment' is just sitting there gathering dust... with each upgrade...

[2] Unity has two levels of licensing... $199 INDIE version and the $1400 Pro... $199 INDIE VERSION... GET IT...


now while Matt's assertion that GG has abandoned indies may be a lil over the top, i can see where he might get that idea...

what i can't see though, is the abuse he's being subjected to because of his opinions... i mean, after all... isn't this supposed to be a community... and isn't a forum supposed to be a place where divergent opinions are invited for discourse... or has this place suddenly become a sounding board for fanboys and the braindead...


suggestions...

[1] be a lil more tolerant here...

[2] instead of open source for tge, maybe an lower cost entry license for t3d as proposed previously... to enable the TGE license level developers to come into the fold...


i'm sure gg will do the right thing in the long run... they always have in the past... plus, i don't think they'll forget where they came from... at least i hope they don't...

--Mike

#39 I've held my thoughts about this subject and while I can see where both sides are coming from. These are the way I see things...whether or not anyone agrees, it's my two cents and I hope no one get offended.

It doesn't matter what field your in, if your an indie, your going to need pretty much the same tools to work with as any commercial company. Take my professional line of work as an example, I am a small Masonry contractor. I have to pay the same thing for my equipment and material as the much larger contractors do. Alot of times, the larger contractors are the ones that actually get a break, because they do more volume than me. The sad fact still remains, the equipment I use to work with isn't any cheaper for me than it is for them.

Even though, T3D is quite a bit higher than tgea was, it is a more advanced engine, and the more advanced engines are what the larger companies are using. We as indies, or hobbyist in my case, are very lucky to have access to an engine such as T3D, at a cheaper price than what commercial companies have to pay for it. Simply put, your only as good as the tools you work with.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, I know what it's like to be broke. I also know what it's like to want someting bad enough, to find a way to afford it. I fully understand, as well, that a company has to make money in order to stay alive. I love GG and I love this community, If GG was to die, the community most likely would as well. I really don't want that to happen.

#40

Quote:"Has Unity abandoned the Indie?"

that sorta thinking (and i use that term generously) is just a lot of crap...

no it is not crap, it's the truth. To get a decent version of unity you need pro, did you look at the features that are stripped in the 199.00 version? I wouldn't pay 199.00 for that as the engine doesnt really offer much on the art side of things. There are also plans for a lower priced version of Torque 3D, so the indie has not been abandoned yet. How is the 1,000 dollar version not indie when engines like gamebryo, cryengine and unreal are at the quarter million mark. i have seen at least 20 other "indie" engines out there from the 5k to 10k range. you are just cheap buddy, your definition of indie is way off.

http://unity3d.com/unity/licenses