Going from Pro to happily joining the minors... :)
by Juan Rubio · 02/04/2006 (5:01 am) · 11 comments
Heyaz,
This is my first posting here. I am a Technical Artist on the Game side that has worked for Rockstar Games and I have done contracts through third parties for SCEA and EA. On the film side which is where I normally hang my hat and have spent the most time, I am a Technical Director with me mostly being geared towards Color and Lighting/R&D. My demo reel is at(note I am NOT looking to join a team or for work):
http://www.bad-wan.com/reel/juanreel2005.wmv
So whats with the subject? Well I just started on the film X-Men 3 and a new facility that I have not worked at before. One of the guys there was joking and stating "Yeah im hanging out here in the minors but im waiting for my big chance to go back to the majors... the big boys". Hehe. Now im happy to go the other way myself. The chance that I can break free and finally come out with my first indie title or two. Sure it be fun to go work at a big game shop again but if I am going to make less money than I do in film id rather:
1) Own my own IP.
2) Not slave away for hours on end to have someone else make a profit out of what ive spent hours on to build and probably get laid off as soon as it ships.
Now ive been checking out Torque and T2D for a while now off and on. Trying to finally make the plunge and get to a point of releasing something or two this year. I am soo impressed to see how far both Torque and T2D have come. I am estatic with both products and I hope to see more improvement this year! :)
It is true that as being in the minors you can do almost anything that can be done at a larger place. It all comes down to time and talent because the cash usually aint there. There are some things I miss about the larger shops which is kind of a roadblock for me when dealing with Torque. Its true I could build it out but by myself it would take ages. Ive gotten some progress on my own but here is some info on my biggest roadblocks.
1. An acceptable way of creating interiors and then getting that geometry back into my 3d app so I can do layout and get it all back into Torque. Both Quark and that other app thats out there dont seem entirely usable to me and I dont see any ways of getting the geo back into my 3d app.
2. Setting up my camera in my 3d app and being able to replicate it exactly in Torque.
3. Creating vertex or image based lightmaps in my 3D app and getting it back into Torque (even though if I can get #1 working im fine just setting up my light positions, parameters in my 3d app and let Torque or the Lighting Kit handle it.)
Now these are all things that are common from the tools that I have seen at the "major studios" and talking to people who I know that work for some shops since Ive left the gaming field. Personally for me its all about getting the tools setup so I can let artists be artists (myself included) and not have to deal with a lick of scripting and then being able to see exactly what they will be getting in engine as easily as possible.
So what have I done to help this? Well a while ago I wrote a level editor that writes out Mission files directly from maya. Why is this important? Well the last title I was on we could create the level geometry, light and texture the geometry, do layout and triggers, animate to camera for cinematics and game play all within a single package. This editor is a step in that direction. Now its creating my level geo/lighting/texturing is my big hangup. DTS's are great but issues start popping up when you try to use them to create your levels with them. My mission editor does this and tries it and even exports image based lightmaps that I hacked into Torque but this solution really doesnt work in the long run. So im going back to step one.
If anyone has any advice please let me know. It be nice to be able to create DIF's and get them back into Maya for layout somehow. Its just Quark is reaally painful for me to work in. I got brush based modeling methods working in Maya and exporting to working map files BUT texturing is still wierd and creating brush modeling tools and scripts for Maya is still a bit off.
Well onto the minors I say! Ill be happy when I make it in and have something shipping this year. My assets are sloooooooowly coming along. hehe.
Laters!
Juan Rubio
This is my first posting here. I am a Technical Artist on the Game side that has worked for Rockstar Games and I have done contracts through third parties for SCEA and EA. On the film side which is where I normally hang my hat and have spent the most time, I am a Technical Director with me mostly being geared towards Color and Lighting/R&D. My demo reel is at(note I am NOT looking to join a team or for work):
http://www.bad-wan.com/reel/juanreel2005.wmv
So whats with the subject? Well I just started on the film X-Men 3 and a new facility that I have not worked at before. One of the guys there was joking and stating "Yeah im hanging out here in the minors but im waiting for my big chance to go back to the majors... the big boys". Hehe. Now im happy to go the other way myself. The chance that I can break free and finally come out with my first indie title or two. Sure it be fun to go work at a big game shop again but if I am going to make less money than I do in film id rather:
1) Own my own IP.
2) Not slave away for hours on end to have someone else make a profit out of what ive spent hours on to build and probably get laid off as soon as it ships.
Now ive been checking out Torque and T2D for a while now off and on. Trying to finally make the plunge and get to a point of releasing something or two this year. I am soo impressed to see how far both Torque and T2D have come. I am estatic with both products and I hope to see more improvement this year! :)
It is true that as being in the minors you can do almost anything that can be done at a larger place. It all comes down to time and talent because the cash usually aint there. There are some things I miss about the larger shops which is kind of a roadblock for me when dealing with Torque. Its true I could build it out but by myself it would take ages. Ive gotten some progress on my own but here is some info on my biggest roadblocks.
1. An acceptable way of creating interiors and then getting that geometry back into my 3d app so I can do layout and get it all back into Torque. Both Quark and that other app thats out there dont seem entirely usable to me and I dont see any ways of getting the geo back into my 3d app.
2. Setting up my camera in my 3d app and being able to replicate it exactly in Torque.
3. Creating vertex or image based lightmaps in my 3D app and getting it back into Torque (even though if I can get #1 working im fine just setting up my light positions, parameters in my 3d app and let Torque or the Lighting Kit handle it.)
Now these are all things that are common from the tools that I have seen at the "major studios" and talking to people who I know that work for some shops since Ive left the gaming field. Personally for me its all about getting the tools setup so I can let artists be artists (myself included) and not have to deal with a lick of scripting and then being able to see exactly what they will be getting in engine as easily as possible.
So what have I done to help this? Well a while ago I wrote a level editor that writes out Mission files directly from maya. Why is this important? Well the last title I was on we could create the level geometry, light and texture the geometry, do layout and triggers, animate to camera for cinematics and game play all within a single package. This editor is a step in that direction. Now its creating my level geo/lighting/texturing is my big hangup. DTS's are great but issues start popping up when you try to use them to create your levels with them. My mission editor does this and tries it and even exports image based lightmaps that I hacked into Torque but this solution really doesnt work in the long run. So im going back to step one.
If anyone has any advice please let me know. It be nice to be able to create DIF's and get them back into Maya for layout somehow. Its just Quark is reaally painful for me to work in. I got brush based modeling methods working in Maya and exporting to working map files BUT texturing is still wierd and creating brush modeling tools and scripts for Maya is still a bit off.
Well onto the minors I say! Ill be happy when I make it in and have something shipping this year. My assets are sloooooooowly coming along. hehe.
Laters!
Juan Rubio
About the author
#2
02/04/2006 (6:24 am)
Welcome to the community Juan. Good luck to you! 
#3
02/04/2006 (6:26 am)
Welcome to the community :) 
#4
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
Make It Big In Games
02/04/2006 (6:45 am)
Welcome to the community, but I take huge offense to calling it the "minors". This is not the minors in any way. This is as hard as anything you will ever do. It is a lilfestyle choice. Demeaning it by calling it the minors cheapens the work all of us have been doing for the last six years paving the way.-Jeff Tunnell, GG
Make It Big In Games
#5
02/04/2006 (7:09 am)
Welcome!
#7
02/04/2006 (1:36 pm)
I wouldn't say calling it the minors is necessarily insulting, but it is definitely an inappropriate word choice, because it implies that there's a difference in skill level - minor league players are by definition lesser-skilled than those in the majors. This doesn't translate to the indie world if people like yourself with jobs and experience in the mainstream film and gaming industries are *voluntarily* coming over here.
#8
To respond more seriously, though, I would take James' anaolgy a little further and make the comparison to Independant Film. It wasn't that long ago that it was percieved as a small step above bad Public Access Cable content, but now it's full of very recognizable names, outstanding talent and great films. There are more and more movies that debut here in Austin at the SXSW festival and go on to major distribution. That sounds a lot like, hmmm, Marble Blast's evolution, perhaps?
To keep this short, I see the indy game scene as entering (or maybe even already in) its transition in full swing and many many things about it are changing. We've seen indy games on G4, coverage on Gamasurta, a host of new people to the community, the list goes on.
Finally - and this is not fanboy because I do have things I'd like to see get better ;) - the tools we have at our disposal now - woot! T2D *rocks*, my programer and I haven't had any trouble (except for needing time to work and real time networking) doing just about everything we want to all while still learning Toruescript! I haven't been able to put much time into TSE, but the power, ooooh the power!
Ah yes, this is definitely a great place to be.
(Sorry if that lost it's way in a place or two, being attacked by children will do that to you.)
- Don
02/04/2006 (2:36 pm)
I just figured it was part of the context of his story. =D It's nice to see another artist join the community, we seem to be in the minority. I demand more art snapshots!To respond more seriously, though, I would take James' anaolgy a little further and make the comparison to Independant Film. It wasn't that long ago that it was percieved as a small step above bad Public Access Cable content, but now it's full of very recognizable names, outstanding talent and great films. There are more and more movies that debut here in Austin at the SXSW festival and go on to major distribution. That sounds a lot like, hmmm, Marble Blast's evolution, perhaps?
To keep this short, I see the indy game scene as entering (or maybe even already in) its transition in full swing and many many things about it are changing. We've seen indy games on G4, coverage on Gamasurta, a host of new people to the community, the list goes on.
Finally - and this is not fanboy because I do have things I'd like to see get better ;) - the tools we have at our disposal now - woot! T2D *rocks*, my programer and I haven't had any trouble (except for needing time to work and real time networking) doing just about everything we want to all while still learning Toruescript! I haven't been able to put much time into TSE, but the power, ooooh the power!
Ah yes, this is definitely a great place to be.
(Sorry if that lost it's way in a place or two, being attacked by children will do that to you.)
- Don
#9
02/04/2006 (3:30 pm)
I doubt Juan meant any offense, but I agree it's a bad analogy. My $.02: this is the minors in terms of money and scale but the work is to solve the same problems that any sized production faces (code, art, tools, marketing, distribution, etc), and it requires just as much talent and hard work. Definitely requires boundless passion.
#10
Ok ok. I didnt mean to offend anyone with my wording. It was really just a part of the story and I didnt want to ramble on setting it up. The persons comment was really a joke when he said it and it wasnt a serious comment. Lets talk about what has happened on the film side post production. More and more work is actually going to smaller shops now. Indie mom and pop style companies. There is no difference in the talent. Actually in a lot of ways I find that a lot of these people are more talented because they wear so many different hats. It a larger shop as in games you are usually doing one single part of a shot or of a game. You make and stamp out one type of asset over and over again. A lot of times its really hard to even point out what youve done (Ive had some friends been like... you see that grass over there? I put it in blade by blade. What else did I do on this show? More grass). Now these smaller shops have been getting the work. This place that he was joking about saying that it was the "minors" will actually have worked on and contributed to least 10 large budget films this year. Also once I start working some real OT ill actually be making more than id be a larger shop. ^_^. I feel bad for my brothers in the art field who have contributed their life, sweat, and tears into a project only to end up in the hospital from being overworked and getting a swift boot to the bum. Id rather see them do as the people do in the indie field with the same talent, working just as hard, but owning their labor and contributing by coming out with a title that reflects what they wanted to do.
@Jeff: I understand your background and I am extremely happy with what you guys have done and the way you have paved for everyone. I didnt mean to cheapen anything so I apologize for my wording. I am very happy to make the lifestyle choice. I toast the people who put it tons of hours for their dream and to help everyone else on the indie side. If it helps mend anything Ill buy you copius amounts of liquor at GDC if I see you there. :)
@Phil: Thanks for the input. I dont have Constructor and seeing that ive already offended GG people I probably wont see it until everyone else does. Hehe. Well for me its kind of been a roadblock because I havent been able to create the type of level geometry I want very easily yet and in a way that works well within Torque. The other two arent really roadblocks but it help out a lot. The way a lot of artists I know work is that we create assets and animate to camera. It helps being able to see the same exact view that we will be seeing in game and work in that view. Ive worked in engines where I havent been able to do this in the past and the sheer amount of hours I could have saved in iterations alone. Yup the lighting would be cool since Ive done a lot of work with the Mental Ray renderer thats built into most packages these days and I have seen the pipeline or helped a couple places with it on the real-time and pre-rendered side. Either way there is some work ahead to be done.
@James: Actually the person who was joking saying that he was in the "minors" could easily work at any other place. Its a choice that he does what he does. Also I dont consider where we are in any way "the minors" anyways. Hehe. So yup we are all coming by our own accord into the indie field and are very happy with the choice. :)
@Don: Ill post some stuff as it comes down the pipe. Yup I love T2D stuff and Torque. Ive been working on something for both and trying to figure stuff out. Due to work ive missed a big milestone I wanted to hit on my personal projects. So im just trying to get it all going and most likely farm out some of the assets I cant handle on my own due to time. Also as a TA/TD im kinda stuck in the middle of the art creation/coding process. So I usually act as a translator between Artists and Engineers. Hehe :) Either way it always freaks people out when they see my programming books next to my oil paints.
@Jason: Actually I dont think this is the minor as far as money goes(well maybe seed cash is smaller BUT it just requires even more talent and time then to offset that). Same with the smaller shops on the film side. Scale wise in a way its better to be small. Usually as a whole entity you can move faster to fix problems w/o having to deal with layers upon layers of crazyness. One friend at a place wrote some tools that cut her work creating levels and art for a AAA title by at least 50%. As a small entity you could have rolled out the tools the same day to everyone and been happy kicking out stuff. As a large facility she had to have meetings, presentations, and more to show off the tools before they could even be touched by someone else... not only taking her time away from the level work she could have been doing but also wasting the time of the rest of the artists on the project because they were not using the tools. I totally agree on the boundless passion side though for indies.
Well im going to hide now. :) Actually laundry time since its the only time I have right now to do this due to work and working on my own projects. HEhe. Plus a LA Clippers Cheerleader is yelling at me from the other room to clean the dishes too. Oi. If there were only one extra day a week for the weekend. ^_^
02/04/2006 (4:41 pm)
Ack! Im already offending people with my first blog post here. Awww man :( Hehe.Ok ok. I didnt mean to offend anyone with my wording. It was really just a part of the story and I didnt want to ramble on setting it up. The persons comment was really a joke when he said it and it wasnt a serious comment. Lets talk about what has happened on the film side post production. More and more work is actually going to smaller shops now. Indie mom and pop style companies. There is no difference in the talent. Actually in a lot of ways I find that a lot of these people are more talented because they wear so many different hats. It a larger shop as in games you are usually doing one single part of a shot or of a game. You make and stamp out one type of asset over and over again. A lot of times its really hard to even point out what youve done (Ive had some friends been like... you see that grass over there? I put it in blade by blade. What else did I do on this show? More grass). Now these smaller shops have been getting the work. This place that he was joking about saying that it was the "minors" will actually have worked on and contributed to least 10 large budget films this year. Also once I start working some real OT ill actually be making more than id be a larger shop. ^_^. I feel bad for my brothers in the art field who have contributed their life, sweat, and tears into a project only to end up in the hospital from being overworked and getting a swift boot to the bum. Id rather see them do as the people do in the indie field with the same talent, working just as hard, but owning their labor and contributing by coming out with a title that reflects what they wanted to do.
@Jeff: I understand your background and I am extremely happy with what you guys have done and the way you have paved for everyone. I didnt mean to cheapen anything so I apologize for my wording. I am very happy to make the lifestyle choice. I toast the people who put it tons of hours for their dream and to help everyone else on the indie side. If it helps mend anything Ill buy you copius amounts of liquor at GDC if I see you there. :)
@Phil: Thanks for the input. I dont have Constructor and seeing that ive already offended GG people I probably wont see it until everyone else does. Hehe. Well for me its kind of been a roadblock because I havent been able to create the type of level geometry I want very easily yet and in a way that works well within Torque. The other two arent really roadblocks but it help out a lot. The way a lot of artists I know work is that we create assets and animate to camera. It helps being able to see the same exact view that we will be seeing in game and work in that view. Ive worked in engines where I havent been able to do this in the past and the sheer amount of hours I could have saved in iterations alone. Yup the lighting would be cool since Ive done a lot of work with the Mental Ray renderer thats built into most packages these days and I have seen the pipeline or helped a couple places with it on the real-time and pre-rendered side. Either way there is some work ahead to be done.
@James: Actually the person who was joking saying that he was in the "minors" could easily work at any other place. Its a choice that he does what he does. Also I dont consider where we are in any way "the minors" anyways. Hehe. So yup we are all coming by our own accord into the indie field and are very happy with the choice. :)
@Don: Ill post some stuff as it comes down the pipe. Yup I love T2D stuff and Torque. Ive been working on something for both and trying to figure stuff out. Due to work ive missed a big milestone I wanted to hit on my personal projects. So im just trying to get it all going and most likely farm out some of the assets I cant handle on my own due to time. Also as a TA/TD im kinda stuck in the middle of the art creation/coding process. So I usually act as a translator between Artists and Engineers. Hehe :) Either way it always freaks people out when they see my programming books next to my oil paints.
@Jason: Actually I dont think this is the minor as far as money goes(well maybe seed cash is smaller BUT it just requires even more talent and time then to offset that). Same with the smaller shops on the film side. Scale wise in a way its better to be small. Usually as a whole entity you can move faster to fix problems w/o having to deal with layers upon layers of crazyness. One friend at a place wrote some tools that cut her work creating levels and art for a AAA title by at least 50%. As a small entity you could have rolled out the tools the same day to everyone and been happy kicking out stuff. As a large facility she had to have meetings, presentations, and more to show off the tools before they could even be touched by someone else... not only taking her time away from the level work she could have been doing but also wasting the time of the rest of the artists on the project because they were not using the tools. I totally agree on the boundless passion side though for indies.
Well im going to hide now. :) Actually laundry time since its the only time I have right now to do this due to work and working on my own projects. HEhe. Plus a LA Clippers Cheerleader is yelling at me from the other room to clean the dishes too. Oi. If there were only one extra day a week for the weekend. ^_^
#11
Don't crawl into a hole just yet with us, we're a very forgiving crowd, especially with the background explanation provided ;). What you can do though, is help crank out some great work for the Torque engine and/or T2D and help demonstrate how fun and exciting doing things the way YOU want them done can be. There's a ton of work cut out for you if you want to make it in the independant industry; probably more than what you might even be used to. The pleasure is all in how you look at it of course. I think indie companies have great potential of only rising higher and higher in the gaming industry, and with the talent and skills of big industry folk like yourself coming abroad (very cool reel by the way), there's no telling what leaps and bounds it will go!
02/05/2006 (11:07 am)
Welcome Juan!Don't crawl into a hole just yet with us, we're a very forgiving crowd, especially with the background explanation provided ;). What you can do though, is help crank out some great work for the Torque engine and/or T2D and help demonstrate how fun and exciting doing things the way YOU want them done can be. There's a ton of work cut out for you if you want to make it in the independant industry; probably more than what you might even be used to. The pleasure is all in how you look at it of course. I think indie companies have great potential of only rising higher and higher in the gaming industry, and with the talent and skills of big industry folk like yourself coming abroad (very cool reel by the way), there's no telling what leaps and bounds it will go!
Torque 3D Owner Phil Carlisle
As far as your other roadblock issues:
1) Constructor
2) Easy enough to animate a dummy node in max/maya and then create a class that allows you to play specific sequences of animations and animate a camera using it. (In fact, I might do that sometime soon myself).
3) Yeah, having vertex lighitng might be fun too.. bit beyond TGE, but TSE should handle it.
Those things arent really major issues, a good few weeks of programming, but not so much more (ok, more than a few for Constructor, but assuming you have that ).