Utah Indie Developer Meet
by Jay Barnson · 01/19/2006 (1:01 pm) · 6 comments
Last night was the Utah Indie Game Developer's Meet (I don't know if it has an official name yet - it's just what I call it). It went awesome. We had a larger turnout than before - it seems to grow by about 2-3 people every meeting. I counted 15 people, though I may have missed one.
We had yet more industry veterans show up - one gentleman has been a professional in the games indusry on-and-off since 1979 or so. He's worked for Sierra "back in the day," and had worked with Al Lowe on Leisure Suit Larry: Love For Sail. We had an interesting discussion at one point on the use of humor in videogames. (One comment from someone in the discussion - sorry, I've forgotten nearly everyone's name from last night) - "Subtle in Videogames is a jackhammer on an infant's skull." I wish I'd heard that advice PRIOR to Void War :)
We had several discussions about the viability of XBLA for the 360 as an avenue for indies. One of the potential problems we may be seeing is that this channel has proven SO successful that many "non-indie" studios are rushing to produce content for it. This could push the "real" indies out. We'll have to see what happens.
We had a couple of different discussion with Russell Carroll (of Game Tunnel) and others about what it means to be an "indie." It's a very fluid discussion. You've got a couple of guys working without pay in their garage to produce a game... CLEARLY Indie. You have another studio producing a game on spec for a major publisher - clearly NOT indie. But you have a whole spectrum in-between. You have guys like Ninjabee, who are doing contract work for publishers as Wahoo, but who are also self-producing (and self-funding or partially self-funding) titles which are arguably indie titles (Like Outpost Kaloki and Outpost Kaloki X for the XBox 360). And then there's the guys who are working directly with smaller publishers who could very well be called "indie" themselves. Where do you draw the line, and how does the differentiation make a difference to the consumer? Ultimately, the "low budget" indies need to compete at a different level and in a different playing field. (But as Russell pointed out - innovation is rarely rewarded, even as indies. The market tends to reward the guys who steal the innovative concept & perfect it).
We saw several demos:
* A massively multiplayer INDIE game getting created by the Flower Brothers and Paul Witte (sp). Yes, as if Josh Ritter, the Yo-ho-ho Puzzle Pirates guys, and the Tale in the Desert guys weren't enough to convince people that an indie company CAN create an MMORPG if they possess sufficient skill and motivation. The Flower brothers were responsible for ReWolf software - makers of the Gunman Chronicles (get it - ReWolf is their last name spelled backwards). It was looking really slick, and there were other players (it's in an early Beta stage, I think) online as they showed us around. It's sort of a next-gen Ultima Online style game, complete with lots of player-created content (and a push to grab more of the female demographic).
* Ninjabee's next game --- they asked us to keep mum on certain details of this one, so I'll only say it was looking SHARP and Russell Carroll thought it was perfect (Well, actually, he said he had nothing to complain about - since he's a critic / reviewer of indie games, that's pretty high praise).
* The latest iteration of Mike Smith's game, "Caster." It's a game where you are a magic user who uses magical power in the form of swirling 'sprites' that can be fired at other magic users. It's got some great deformable terrain, pretty reflections on the water, and much improved camera and control systems from the last time we saw this game. It's looking pretty close to being a finished product.
* Greg Squire showed us his "Maze Craze" game, which I believe was also showed at IGC last October. It's coming along nicely. Apparently he hit kind of a funk for a couple of months and wasn't sure where to take it, but it looks like that is over and he's back into regular development.
* I gave a very brief demo of a game prototype I have been tinkering with in Torque 1.4 in just a few weeks, entitled "Apocalypse Cow." It was actually just a time-filling project while I waited for the Torque Lighting Kit 1.4 to be released, but in the intervening six weeks it turned into something that is turning out to be (hopefully) a very fun, silly little action-game (a 2D game with a 3D engine).
Oh, and we consumed mass quantities of pizza, soda, cookies, and chips. And I got to see Void War's token "cameo" appearance in Outpost Kaloki X for the XBox 360 --- it's one of the games available (in name only) in the "arcade" upgrade to the space station.
The meeting was large enough that it ended up breaking into multiple side-discussions, so other people there can comment on the discussions they participated in and what they saw (I'm not sure I saw all the game demos!)
We had a GREAT cross-section of people at the event, as usual. We had about three people who are currently working full-time in the industry for studios and doing indie games in their limited "spare time;" one guy (Steve Taylor) who's company is dividing its time between self-funded games and contract studio work for publishers; Dan "Opcode" Arnold who is putting together a small game studio here in the immediate future; some people with NO previous professional game development experience who are new to game development in general and just want to know more; Russell Carroll from the gaming press who specializes in indie games; a fellow who started out writing BBS games in the late 80's moving into MMORPGs now, and others. We had artists and programmers (mainly programmers). And we had some people trying to hire new employees :)
We had a combined knowledge of several DECADES in the professional and indie game industries, and a lot of fresh ideas for a TON of combined feedback on games, the industry, and how best to go about doing what we do. The game demos I saw and the intelligent discussion left me feeling simultaneously inspired and inadequate. We had a ton of talent, skill, knowledge, and energy in the rooms (I say rooms - plural - because we were large enough to end up spilling into multiple rooms in Ninjabee's offices).
And finally - on a personal level - the meet helped motivate me to get more work done on my own game prototype - because I KNEW I'd have to show it - and motivated me to continue working on it just so I can actually give a GOOD demo of it next meeting :) (It's a small game, so by the next meeting I intend to have it at a full-on late-alpha stage!)
We had yet more industry veterans show up - one gentleman has been a professional in the games indusry on-and-off since 1979 or so. He's worked for Sierra "back in the day," and had worked with Al Lowe on Leisure Suit Larry: Love For Sail. We had an interesting discussion at one point on the use of humor in videogames. (One comment from someone in the discussion - sorry, I've forgotten nearly everyone's name from last night) - "Subtle in Videogames is a jackhammer on an infant's skull." I wish I'd heard that advice PRIOR to Void War :)
We had several discussions about the viability of XBLA for the 360 as an avenue for indies. One of the potential problems we may be seeing is that this channel has proven SO successful that many "non-indie" studios are rushing to produce content for it. This could push the "real" indies out. We'll have to see what happens.
We had a couple of different discussion with Russell Carroll (of Game Tunnel) and others about what it means to be an "indie." It's a very fluid discussion. You've got a couple of guys working without pay in their garage to produce a game... CLEARLY Indie. You have another studio producing a game on spec for a major publisher - clearly NOT indie. But you have a whole spectrum in-between. You have guys like Ninjabee, who are doing contract work for publishers as Wahoo, but who are also self-producing (and self-funding or partially self-funding) titles which are arguably indie titles (Like Outpost Kaloki and Outpost Kaloki X for the XBox 360). And then there's the guys who are working directly with smaller publishers who could very well be called "indie" themselves. Where do you draw the line, and how does the differentiation make a difference to the consumer? Ultimately, the "low budget" indies need to compete at a different level and in a different playing field. (But as Russell pointed out - innovation is rarely rewarded, even as indies. The market tends to reward the guys who steal the innovative concept & perfect it).
We saw several demos:
* A massively multiplayer INDIE game getting created by the Flower Brothers and Paul Witte (sp). Yes, as if Josh Ritter, the Yo-ho-ho Puzzle Pirates guys, and the Tale in the Desert guys weren't enough to convince people that an indie company CAN create an MMORPG if they possess sufficient skill and motivation. The Flower brothers were responsible for ReWolf software - makers of the Gunman Chronicles (get it - ReWolf is their last name spelled backwards). It was looking really slick, and there were other players (it's in an early Beta stage, I think) online as they showed us around. It's sort of a next-gen Ultima Online style game, complete with lots of player-created content (and a push to grab more of the female demographic).
* Ninjabee's next game --- they asked us to keep mum on certain details of this one, so I'll only say it was looking SHARP and Russell Carroll thought it was perfect (Well, actually, he said he had nothing to complain about - since he's a critic / reviewer of indie games, that's pretty high praise).
* The latest iteration of Mike Smith's game, "Caster." It's a game where you are a magic user who uses magical power in the form of swirling 'sprites' that can be fired at other magic users. It's got some great deformable terrain, pretty reflections on the water, and much improved camera and control systems from the last time we saw this game. It's looking pretty close to being a finished product.
* Greg Squire showed us his "Maze Craze" game, which I believe was also showed at IGC last October. It's coming along nicely. Apparently he hit kind of a funk for a couple of months and wasn't sure where to take it, but it looks like that is over and he's back into regular development.
* I gave a very brief demo of a game prototype I have been tinkering with in Torque 1.4 in just a few weeks, entitled "Apocalypse Cow." It was actually just a time-filling project while I waited for the Torque Lighting Kit 1.4 to be released, but in the intervening six weeks it turned into something that is turning out to be (hopefully) a very fun, silly little action-game (a 2D game with a 3D engine).
Oh, and we consumed mass quantities of pizza, soda, cookies, and chips. And I got to see Void War's token "cameo" appearance in Outpost Kaloki X for the XBox 360 --- it's one of the games available (in name only) in the "arcade" upgrade to the space station.
The meeting was large enough that it ended up breaking into multiple side-discussions, so other people there can comment on the discussions they participated in and what they saw (I'm not sure I saw all the game demos!)
We had a GREAT cross-section of people at the event, as usual. We had about three people who are currently working full-time in the industry for studios and doing indie games in their limited "spare time;" one guy (Steve Taylor) who's company is dividing its time between self-funded games and contract studio work for publishers; Dan "Opcode" Arnold who is putting together a small game studio here in the immediate future; some people with NO previous professional game development experience who are new to game development in general and just want to know more; Russell Carroll from the gaming press who specializes in indie games; a fellow who started out writing BBS games in the late 80's moving into MMORPGs now, and others. We had artists and programmers (mainly programmers). And we had some people trying to hire new employees :)
We had a combined knowledge of several DECADES in the professional and indie game industries, and a lot of fresh ideas for a TON of combined feedback on games, the industry, and how best to go about doing what we do. The game demos I saw and the intelligent discussion left me feeling simultaneously inspired and inadequate. We had a ton of talent, skill, knowledge, and energy in the rooms (I say rooms - plural - because we were large enough to end up spilling into multiple rooms in Ninjabee's offices).
And finally - on a personal level - the meet helped motivate me to get more work done on my own game prototype - because I KNEW I'd have to show it - and motivated me to continue working on it just so I can actually give a GOOD demo of it next meeting :) (It's a small game, so by the next meeting I intend to have it at a full-on late-alpha stage!)
About the author
Jay has been a mainstream and indie game developer for a... uh, long time. His professional start came in 1994 developing titles for the then-unknown and upcoming Sony Playstation. He runs Rampant Games and blogs at Tales of the Rampant Coyote.
#2
But you can't make something TOO Bizarre or different if you are looking to make money (or even get approved for the XBLA), because innovation just doesn't get rewarded very much. But do something DIFFERENT.
I mean - take a game I worked on a long time ago... Twisted Metal. You know what Twisted Metal *REALLY* was? It was a fighting game (which were extremely popular in the 1990's) with CARS. I'm not sure most people even make that connection, but that really was the design concept behind the whole thing. It was executed more-or-less competently, and was marketed like CRAZY, and became a big success. But in concept, it was just a lateral shift from a tried, true, and overdone concept.
That doesn't answer the core question of whether or not you can get an XBLA game into the channel with it being crowded by companies with deeper pockets than you. Will it last? Will every game sell like Geometry Wars (only ONE game has sold like Geometry Wars), and the return (at least what we've seen thus far) is still gonna be fairly modest compared to the traditional AAA game. They can't just outspend the rest of the indies into oblivion... once they cross into the $100k barrier, the chances of losing money on the title may get really high.
Maybe.
It's still too early to see.
01/19/2006 (1:53 pm)
Well, that was part of the discussion. The thing is, you CANNOT compete by just creating a game that is unique only in its time period. Even on the PC - the hit games from 2 years ago are now being sold in a bargain bin for $15 or $20. That's the same price point as an indie game. You are gonna have a tough time competing with production quality, because your $50,000 indie game isn't going to be able to beat a $2.5 million game from 2003. But you can't make something TOO Bizarre or different if you are looking to make money (or even get approved for the XBLA), because innovation just doesn't get rewarded very much. But do something DIFFERENT.
I mean - take a game I worked on a long time ago... Twisted Metal. You know what Twisted Metal *REALLY* was? It was a fighting game (which were extremely popular in the 1990's) with CARS. I'm not sure most people even make that connection, but that really was the design concept behind the whole thing. It was executed more-or-less competently, and was marketed like CRAZY, and became a big success. But in concept, it was just a lateral shift from a tried, true, and overdone concept.
That doesn't answer the core question of whether or not you can get an XBLA game into the channel with it being crowded by companies with deeper pockets than you. Will it last? Will every game sell like Geometry Wars (only ONE game has sold like Geometry Wars), and the return (at least what we've seen thus far) is still gonna be fairly modest compared to the traditional AAA game. They can't just outspend the rest of the indies into oblivion... once they cross into the $100k barrier, the chances of losing money on the title may get really high.
Maybe.
It's still too early to see.
#3
At any rate I think the fact that Geometry Wars is the big seller on the system is a good idication that indies are SAFE! Over on some other forums there are numerous '360 shooters' (Geometry Wars knockoffs) popping up like crazy. Essentially anyone could have made that game ... indie or not. So I think that people are still into buying whatever's fun ... and that's all that counts. Xbox Live Arcade 360 should be a nice return to the days when a few guys could make a fun game on a logical budget and get rich if they do it right.
It's just a fact that a lot of games just aren't going to be great ... and you can make Battlefield 2 ... or Tetris ... basically something as complex of simple as you like ... if you nail that balance you're good to go.
01/19/2006 (2:20 pm)
This sounds like it was great Jay! I wish I could've been there. Anyway, I really hope that XBLA doesn't turn into a big player playground only. I don't think it will this generation as many people are still stuck in the retail/box/big display thing. However, I think that toward the end and perhaps into the next generation all games will be downloadable ... so it's time to strike now.At any rate I think the fact that Geometry Wars is the big seller on the system is a good idication that indies are SAFE! Over on some other forums there are numerous '360 shooters' (Geometry Wars knockoffs) popping up like crazy. Essentially anyone could have made that game ... indie or not. So I think that people are still into buying whatever's fun ... and that's all that counts. Xbox Live Arcade 360 should be a nice return to the days when a few guys could make a fun game on a logical budget and get rich if they do it right.
It's just a fact that a lot of games just aren't going to be great ... and you can make Battlefield 2 ... or Tetris ... basically something as complex of simple as you like ... if you nail that balance you're good to go.
#4
Part of me wonders if the hubub surrounding the 360 XBLA stuff isn't just on account of the novelty of it all at this point. Though I hope not. It'd be cool if this brings a new golden age of understanding and realization that it's all about FUN, not big budgets. But more likely it could bring a new age of skyrocketing costs for even XBLA games.
01/19/2006 (3:30 pm)
Heh - I wish we could get more of the people from the GG community there... but I guess we have to wait until IGC.Part of me wonders if the hubub surrounding the 360 XBLA stuff isn't just on account of the novelty of it all at this point. Though I hope not. It'd be cool if this brings a new golden age of understanding and realization that it's all about FUN, not big budgets. But more likely it could bring a new age of skyrocketing costs for even XBLA games.
#5
Thanks for the report!
01/19/2006 (4:16 pm)
Sounds like it was a good time. Sorry I couldn't make it, but I'll definitely try to make the next one.Thanks for the report!
#6
01/19/2006 (10:38 pm)
I was there it was a great time ....this is Josh. Anyways, I can't wait for the next one. Maybe by then I'll have something to show. 
Ajari Wilson
This is what I'm worried about. Most of the games that are selling increasingly well on XBLA are established games that have been blockbuster titles in the past. This is going to directly harm any indie studio trying to present a new franchise. Why should I buy your fighting game when Street Fighter II and Power Stone 2 going to be the same price and tried and true quality? Why should I buy your cave dweller beat em up game when I can get Gauntlet right now? Don't even get me started about when EA joins the party and releases 30 professional quality titles for XBLA a year. What will we do then?
-Ajari-