Plan for Jacob Fike (valinorbob)
by Jacob Fike · 09/15/2005 (3:39 am) · 10 comments
As most people that frequent this site have probably experienced, making a game or a mod can be extremely complicated. I have been on several mod projects that never made it because of a lack of centralized communication and/or organization. I know how big projects can get out of hand and seem impossible, but with good tools for organization and communication, everything is possible.
I have been thinking about this for several years now, and working on and off in my spare time to figure out a way to give game and mod developers the tools they need to stay on track and get their projects finished and released to the public. I have decided that the biggest roadblock is team communication and task management.
In light of this problem I have decided to write a web-based tool for project management, specifically geared towards game and mod developers. With that in mind, I'm looking for opinions on how much need/want/desire there is for such a tool. I know there are some sites out there that have project management, like http://www.basecamphq.com, but they aren't free and they are not gamer-oriented, but if anyone has used them for a game project and has some opinions about what works and doesn't work, I'd love to hear them.
Basically, what I want to know is how much interest there is in project management tools to begin with, what features are really wanted, and whether a hosted service or a pre-packaged script that you setup on your own server would be preferred. If you have any questions, comments, or opinions on this matter, please leave a comment here or feel free to email me at valinorbob at gmail.com.
I already have a framework completed and many simple features working like messages, to-do lists, and user accounts. I am working on ways to make creating, assigning, and updating tasks as simple as possbile. You can view some more details and find a link to a prototype in the project listing: www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=project&page=view.project&qid=3285
I have been thinking about this for several years now, and working on and off in my spare time to figure out a way to give game and mod developers the tools they need to stay on track and get their projects finished and released to the public. I have decided that the biggest roadblock is team communication and task management.
In light of this problem I have decided to write a web-based tool for project management, specifically geared towards game and mod developers. With that in mind, I'm looking for opinions on how much need/want/desire there is for such a tool. I know there are some sites out there that have project management, like http://www.basecamphq.com, but they aren't free and they are not gamer-oriented, but if anyone has used them for a game project and has some opinions about what works and doesn't work, I'd love to hear them.
Basically, what I want to know is how much interest there is in project management tools to begin with, what features are really wanted, and whether a hosted service or a pre-packaged script that you setup on your own server would be preferred. If you have any questions, comments, or opinions on this matter, please leave a comment here or feel free to email me at valinorbob at gmail.com.
I already have a framework completed and many simple features working like messages, to-do lists, and user accounts. I am working on ways to make creating, assigning, and updating tasks as simple as possbile. You can view some more details and find a link to a prototype in the project listing: www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=project&page=view.project&qid=3285
About the author
As the CTO of Avalon Labs LLC, I am responsible for the technology behind Fellowstream, our team-based to-do list.
#2
I don't know if you've already seen applications like Mantis or Flyspray - but I think they are great for bugtracking/task management. Maybe you can get some id
09/15/2005 (7:20 am)
This sounds like something very nice to have. it would be very nice to have some support for versioning of files as well - like sourceforge.I don't know if you've already seen applications like Mantis or Flyspray - but I think they are great for bugtracking/task management. Maybe you can get some id
#3
If you are interested let me know and I'll email you.
09/15/2005 (7:32 am)
I've been wanting to do something like this myself. I'd be happy to help you. I'm quite skilled in PHP/MySQL programming.If you are interested let me know and I'll email you.
#4
09/15/2005 (10:02 am)
Bugzilla is an open source bug tracking program and team management program from Mozilla, but I've found it fairly wanting in the team management and scheduling aspects. On the other hand, it IS open source, so it could be modified. 
#5
09/15/2005 (10:17 am)
We have been using Mantis for some projects, everyone seems to like it.
#6
09/15/2005 (7:32 pm)
Good luck. I personally would recommend that you look in to MS Project. It has a lot of tools and features that would be great for managing and tracking projects. I realize it costs money, but sometimes it is better than re-inventing the wheel. [I run a product development department, I kind of live and die by MS Project. If you need a beta tester or feedback, let me know-- I'd be happy to contribute.]
#7
@Johan: What do you mean about file versions? Is that something sourceforge does on it's own? I'm pretty sure you can just choose a category when you upload the file, and most projects just use different version #'s as the categories. I was already planning on a file system though, with custom categories and such, so it will probably be similar.
@All: Another question I have is, with this type of system, would you want it to remain an internal thing or be open to the public, with news and file downloads and comments so that you can get feedback from your intended audience? This would push the project more towards a CMS system than just a project management system, but if it is important, I could find a way. Just having XML feeds for news, milestones, and such would allow people to display their progress on their own website in whatever way they wish, while keeping the actual application restricted to the team members. This seems like the best option to me, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say.
09/16/2005 (2:01 am)
@Brent: While MS Project certainly has a lot of features, it suffers from some major problems. It's expensive, it's proprietary, it is not web-based, and it does not have any communication features, you are expected to use other programs/methods to send information back and forth.@Johan: What do you mean about file versions? Is that something sourceforge does on it's own? I'm pretty sure you can just choose a category when you upload the file, and most projects just use different version #'s as the categories. I was already planning on a file system though, with custom categories and such, so it will probably be similar.
@All: Another question I have is, with this type of system, would you want it to remain an internal thing or be open to the public, with news and file downloads and comments so that you can get feedback from your intended audience? This would push the project more towards a CMS system than just a project management system, but if it is important, I could find a way. Just having XML feeds for news, milestones, and such would allow people to display their progress on their own website in whatever way they wish, while keeping the actual application restricted to the team members. This seems like the best option to me, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say.
#8
I don't know exactly how you'd implement this feature - but Sourceforge allows a project to have bug/issue tracking, public filearea and a repository for all source files etc with versioning. One could ofcourse have your upcoming project management application and just install the versioning system of choice in the background but it would be nice if you were able to have some level of integratation between them. Like for instance when you're working on a task which involves modifying the source and check in - the task is updated with your checkin comment and is marked as completed. This type of integration already exists to some extent if you use for example Mantis and Subversion - you're able to have a server-side hook/callback in Subversion which is capable of sending information to Mantis. In your case the information from the source control system might update the related task in your project management system.
I don't know if this makes any clearer - but I think it's a very nice to have feature!
Regards,
Johan
09/16/2005 (2:12 am)
@Jacob: By file version I mean some type of source control system, like CVS or better yet (!?) Subversion where you can store all files in the project with a history and so on.I don't know exactly how you'd implement this feature - but Sourceforge allows a project to have bug/issue tracking, public filearea and a repository for all source files etc with versioning. One could ofcourse have your upcoming project management application and just install the versioning system of choice in the background but it would be nice if you were able to have some level of integratation between them. Like for instance when you're working on a task which involves modifying the source and check in - the task is updated with your checkin comment and is marked as completed. This type of integration already exists to some extent if you use for example Mantis and Subversion - you're able to have a server-side hook/callback in Subversion which is capable of sending information to Mantis. In your case the information from the source control system might update the related task in your project management system.
I don't know if this makes any clearer - but I think it's a very nice to have feature!
Regards,
Johan
#9
If it isn't less than one click away they're not interested, it seems. I don't know.
09/16/2005 (6:56 am)
I love the idea, being a team manager/project manager. I'd say the biggest stumbling block to game development isn't the communication, it's the worker's adaption of the tools of communication. I had message boards set up for our last game, E-Mail lists, websites and none of it worked. No one ever bothered to check the forums. If it isn't less than one click away they're not interested, it seems. I don't know.
#10
If the tasks are not granular enough, most project tracking tools send off all kinds of alarms when something is not marked as 'done' and there is a dependency. Breaking tasks down too much makes the management of the process 'heavy', as workers must spend time updating lists and checking things off (and then tend to not do this). If it is too heavy, the updating will not get done, leading to false feedback. Not granular enough leads to alarms and red flags going off all over.. and sometimes leads to people marking 90% done tasks as done in order to keep the 'project' on track (leading to a false sense of security)
Most software does not have an easy way to mark tasks that can be done in parallel and which ones have dependencies in a way that is easy to do. I am thinking of something like.. hooking up a GUI.. it requires art, and code, and often this process is a back and forth handoff between people (coder and artist) for one task.. breaking it down so that the sub tasks are tracked is 'heavy'.. making it two tasks without dependencies does not really work right.. making it one task leads to a task that is on 'one' persons task and there is no way to track the dependency or chart parrallel progress (art being refined while code is being worked on).
what we ended up with when we were at bravetree was using a Wiki and Mantis. The Wiki serves like a shared pad of paper.. which for me still ranks up there as one of the most effetive project management tools (manually making lists)
If you do make this tool, it needs to be light enough and flexible enough to adapt to different work styles and different development methodologies.. too much structure might make it unusable ( which has been my problem with most web based project tools).
If it makes things easier and faster, people will use it.. if all it does is add labor and does not have a direct positive impact on the team members, it will not be useful..
09/16/2005 (8:15 am)
I think it is a great idea, as better tools for doing this are needed, and the current tools out there don't do a great job for games. I am going to spit out some random thoughts that might be useful.If the tasks are not granular enough, most project tracking tools send off all kinds of alarms when something is not marked as 'done' and there is a dependency. Breaking tasks down too much makes the management of the process 'heavy', as workers must spend time updating lists and checking things off (and then tend to not do this). If it is too heavy, the updating will not get done, leading to false feedback. Not granular enough leads to alarms and red flags going off all over.. and sometimes leads to people marking 90% done tasks as done in order to keep the 'project' on track (leading to a false sense of security)
Most software does not have an easy way to mark tasks that can be done in parallel and which ones have dependencies in a way that is easy to do. I am thinking of something like.. hooking up a GUI.. it requires art, and code, and often this process is a back and forth handoff between people (coder and artist) for one task.. breaking it down so that the sub tasks are tracked is 'heavy'.. making it two tasks without dependencies does not really work right.. making it one task leads to a task that is on 'one' persons task and there is no way to track the dependency or chart parrallel progress (art being refined while code is being worked on).
what we ended up with when we were at bravetree was using a Wiki and Mantis. The Wiki serves like a shared pad of paper.. which for me still ranks up there as one of the most effetive project management tools (manually making lists)
If you do make this tool, it needs to be light enough and flexible enough to adapt to different work styles and different development methodologies.. too much structure might make it unusable ( which has been my problem with most web based project tools).
If it makes things easier and faster, people will use it.. if all it does is add labor and does not have a direct positive impact on the team members, it will not be useful..
Torque Owner Unsung Zero
I can see how a communication tool would be essential for group work though. If or more likely when I need team members, I would find a host-it-yourself solution to be better.