Plan for Toby W. Allen
by Toby W. Allen · 09/09/2005 (6:02 pm) · 15 comments
So.. I've been developing with Torque since.. umm January really; what do I currently make of it? Well it's a powerful engine, and very much a cool sort of rapid prototyping engine. However, I find the support and information side of things insanely disorganised and off-putting. So much so that many members from my society, some with no experience and some with a small amount, want to dump Torque.
Why would they want to do that? Well let's look at it from this perspective - You're taking on a new engine, you might or might not know how to go about this, so you start reading information about the engine, documentation and the "tutorials" on the website. You hit a main problem - These reveal barley anything about the engine, it's capabilities or how to actually use them.
Let's take an area that's been a serious problem for our game - the modelling side of things. While modeling static objects works well and easily. Character modelling is completely mad - The documentation is broken (images) and shows no real structure pipeline for anything other than a basic character with no discussion of how to add props (items, guns, armor, lights, fx, etc...). While forum discussions provide easily solutions to some of these issues, none of this information is added to the tutorials or put together into something that resembles a repository of information for this topic. Looking at the recent Valve SDK, when selecting a topic, you see a great list of specific areas covered - all in depth and up to date.
Similarly the GUI definition is not something that's explained on in any great depth, which is why videos such as the smdLabs stuff have been so great. The visuals of the GUI are barely explored, which is crazy, as the GUI editor in itself is a really sweet tool, one of the best and only tools as such, but the actual look of the windows and such isn't barely explained. Why aren't users provided with the photoshop files for the GUI? When you have for example the smdLabs guys saying well essentially you need to test things by breaking the scripting and seeing what it does, this is good and can teach you a lot, but why follow this approach when some basic tutorials covering the information in a good amount of depth will clarify the pipeline for this area.
Taking a look at mapping; without having searched the forums, I wouldn't have been updated to the release of the mapdif exporter. But wait.. I search a little more and now I get various threads with various mapdif releases.. none are properly detailed in their versioning, and resulting with various tools none of which I'm sure what to do with - This is what I have to sort out with my members, whom when they try to work with things are confronted with such issues which shouldn't happen. If the community creates a fix for the engine's tools, this should be released as part of a tool package that should be regularly checked.
Similarly with the scripting side of things - The example games provided with Torque are great, but they aren't able to really show off anything that's completely non-FPS like. The Racing mod is still greatly based on the FPS scripting. For example, how would you create a particle emitter which uses models as source and attach it to the actual weapon. Well you'd look for the scripting references in the FPS kit, but these don’t give you the big picture of how to properly use them.
Furthermore, the website lacks some much needed features for the team development - If a team is working with Torque, one of their main focus points will be the GG site. With this in mind, if someone like the art lead or lead programmer finds a good resource, he has no method of forwarding that to his other programmers without having to send a separate email. Think about the BBC new forwarding.. simple and many people use it.
If you look at the frontpage, where can you get the latest news? It's not clear, and when even a simple thing such as trying to look for the lastest news about the whole site isn't easy to find, this rings bells.
It's a series a issues like such that are hard for me to get members willing to spend time to look into and cause a great amount of confusion for newcommers. I would prefer seeing less content packs, and more actual decent tutorials and pipeline explanations for different styles of games and genres, to really show off the abilities hidden within torque.
--
I don't want to leave on a totally negative note - Torque has provided us with a solution that is very affordable, but the feeling of being let loose into a giant unknown is very present, specifcally for members. We've been able to get some good work done, but while having devathons, our members were often faced with problems that stopped production and education purely because of the lack of information on many subjects, which is where my call for better collated documentation come from. I understand that GG is working on the TDN, but it would be nice to know that this is heading into providing us with more depth to the documentation.
The critiques here are aimed to be constructive and informative...
Why would they want to do that? Well let's look at it from this perspective - You're taking on a new engine, you might or might not know how to go about this, so you start reading information about the engine, documentation and the "tutorials" on the website. You hit a main problem - These reveal barley anything about the engine, it's capabilities or how to actually use them.
Let's take an area that's been a serious problem for our game - the modelling side of things. While modeling static objects works well and easily. Character modelling is completely mad - The documentation is broken (images) and shows no real structure pipeline for anything other than a basic character with no discussion of how to add props (items, guns, armor, lights, fx, etc...). While forum discussions provide easily solutions to some of these issues, none of this information is added to the tutorials or put together into something that resembles a repository of information for this topic. Looking at the recent Valve SDK, when selecting a topic, you see a great list of specific areas covered - all in depth and up to date.
Similarly the GUI definition is not something that's explained on in any great depth, which is why videos such as the smdLabs stuff have been so great. The visuals of the GUI are barely explored, which is crazy, as the GUI editor in itself is a really sweet tool, one of the best and only tools as such, but the actual look of the windows and such isn't barely explained. Why aren't users provided with the photoshop files for the GUI? When you have for example the smdLabs guys saying well essentially you need to test things by breaking the scripting and seeing what it does, this is good and can teach you a lot, but why follow this approach when some basic tutorials covering the information in a good amount of depth will clarify the pipeline for this area.
Taking a look at mapping; without having searched the forums, I wouldn't have been updated to the release of the mapdif exporter. But wait.. I search a little more and now I get various threads with various mapdif releases.. none are properly detailed in their versioning, and resulting with various tools none of which I'm sure what to do with - This is what I have to sort out with my members, whom when they try to work with things are confronted with such issues which shouldn't happen. If the community creates a fix for the engine's tools, this should be released as part of a tool package that should be regularly checked.
Similarly with the scripting side of things - The example games provided with Torque are great, but they aren't able to really show off anything that's completely non-FPS like. The Racing mod is still greatly based on the FPS scripting. For example, how would you create a particle emitter which uses models as source and attach it to the actual weapon. Well you'd look for the scripting references in the FPS kit, but these don’t give you the big picture of how to properly use them.
Furthermore, the website lacks some much needed features for the team development - If a team is working with Torque, one of their main focus points will be the GG site. With this in mind, if someone like the art lead or lead programmer finds a good resource, he has no method of forwarding that to his other programmers without having to send a separate email. Think about the BBC new forwarding.. simple and many people use it.
If you look at the frontpage, where can you get the latest news? It's not clear, and when even a simple thing such as trying to look for the lastest news about the whole site isn't easy to find, this rings bells.
It's a series a issues like such that are hard for me to get members willing to spend time to look into and cause a great amount of confusion for newcommers. I would prefer seeing less content packs, and more actual decent tutorials and pipeline explanations for different styles of games and genres, to really show off the abilities hidden within torque.
--
I don't want to leave on a totally negative note - Torque has provided us with a solution that is very affordable, but the feeling of being let loose into a giant unknown is very present, specifcally for members. We've been able to get some good work done, but while having devathons, our members were often faced with problems that stopped production and education purely because of the lack of information on many subjects, which is where my call for better collated documentation come from. I understand that GG is working on the TDN, but it would be nice to know that this is heading into providing us with more depth to the documentation.
The critiques here are aimed to be constructive and informative...
About the author
#2
These are some of the precise reasons we started development on TDN. As Ben mentioned in his latest plan, we're getting ready to do a private launch for SDK owners. After that, we'll assess what we need to improve before the full public launch and make those changes.
So don't worry, help is on the way. :)
09/09/2005 (6:19 pm)
Ah, Joseph beat me to it. These are some of the precise reasons we started development on TDN. As Ben mentioned in his latest plan, we're getting ready to do a private launch for SDK owners. After that, we'll assess what we need to improve before the full public launch and make those changes.
So don't worry, help is on the way. :)
#3
09/09/2005 (6:20 pm)
From Bens .planQuote:Torque Developer Network. I'm just going to talk briefly about this. A lot of people lately have been commenting on how our docs need better organization and, much to my delight, offering to improve them themselves. If that's not a dedicated community, what is?! Really, the problem isn't so much the lack of actual docs (there are many of thousands of pages!), as it is the difficulty in finding them (on the user's end) and keeping them up to date (on our and the many resource writers' end).
With so many docs, it seemed a much better idea to simply dedicate a whole website to them, rather than try to keep them "inside" the www.GarageGames.com container. And that's what TDN is all about - making a home for all the docs that our community needs, making it REALLY easy to update them, and giving everyone in our community (coders, artists, experts, novices, employees, associates, or just plain members) a better platform to do all this on.
TDN is going to take a little while to get fully going. There's a lot of content to move into it, and a learning curve for everyone involved (especially the people who are going to be involved in the day-to-day running of it!). So, we're going to make sure we do it right, that it becomes a useful resource from day one, and take the time needed to get it solid and useful before we flip the switch and make it live for everyone. I've already spent a fair chunk of my time up till now laying the groundwork, and when I get back from my vacation, we'll really start going places...
#4
09/09/2005 (6:30 pm)
To be fair, Map2Dif Plus was on the Torque For Artists page the day after I released it.
#5
Thanks,
Toby.
09/09/2005 (6:31 pm)
While I know the TDN is being worked on - I wanted to express some of my concerns for students such as our members and such.Thanks,
Toby.
#6
09/09/2005 (6:40 pm)
All of this has been discussed in the forums lots of times over the last couple of years. This is why GG is working hard to get TDN up and running soon.
#7
09/09/2005 (6:48 pm)
Meh, I disagree, and I think your entry sounds more like a "the work was too hard" than constructive criticism.
#8
09/09/2005 (10:05 pm)
you guys beat me too. TDN
#9
09/09/2005 (11:07 pm)
I've had my fair share of challenges with Torque but a large percentage of the regular stuff you mentioned can easily be found by searching the site either resources or docs. If you can't find what you want there then there's the 3D Game Programming All In One Book by Ken Finney ... and finally after that many of the content packs (especially BraveTree's ... like the Girl Pack) come with documentation to help you get through things like characters etc... I have to admit the docs aren't as easy as something like Blitz where every command is referenced by category and in alphabetical order and includes a code sample but they are two very different animals.
#10
09/09/2005 (11:24 pm)
oh yeah and don't forget EGTGE
#11
I'd like to mention that I found Valves documentation just as bad if not worse. I thought for fun I might whip up something in Source to check out its features and power . Their official getting started docs were horrible and I spent a week in bits and pieces, and a whole weekend making painstakingly slow progress before I got something going and wished I hadn't wasted my time.
There were 3-4 sites you had to switch between looking for things, and the valve-collective was often down. The wiki's were the best part, but still lacked any decent "this is how you get started with this sort of thing" documentation. I basically just ran through the my first entity, etc tutorials (when i found them) which were fairly vague. The engine crashed constantly, with weird error messages which when entered into google didn't return any good explanations. I spent most of time googling, and searching the wiki's. With Torque I would be able to find an answer so much easier.
Perhaps the fact that I'm a lot more comfortable with Torque, and I was just beginning with Source led to a lot of the problems, but don't think Torque is any harder than other engines around to get into (besides maybe the cookie cutter ones).
09/10/2005 (12:09 am)
To be honest I've never had a problem finding any information I want. A simple search usually yields results pretty quickly.I'd like to mention that I found Valves documentation just as bad if not worse. I thought for fun I might whip up something in Source to check out its features and power . Their official getting started docs were horrible and I spent a week in bits and pieces, and a whole weekend making painstakingly slow progress before I got something going and wished I hadn't wasted my time.
There were 3-4 sites you had to switch between looking for things, and the valve-collective was often down. The wiki's were the best part, but still lacked any decent "this is how you get started with this sort of thing" documentation. I basically just ran through the my first entity, etc tutorials (when i found them) which were fairly vague. The engine crashed constantly, with weird error messages which when entered into google didn't return any good explanations. I spent most of time googling, and searching the wiki's. With Torque I would be able to find an answer so much easier.
Perhaps the fact that I'm a lot more comfortable with Torque, and I was just beginning with Source led to a lot of the problems, but don't think Torque is any harder than other engines around to get into (besides maybe the cookie cutter ones).
#12
I think we should keep in mind that Toby's sharing feedback with us from a whole group of beginning developers, not just complaining that he personally couldn't figure something out. Looks like some valid concerns to me, although I hope they don't dump Torque until TDN gets up and running!
09/10/2005 (10:19 am)
Quote: Meh, I disagree, and I think your entry sounds more like a "the work was too hard" than constructive criticism.
I think we should keep in mind that Toby's sharing feedback with us from a whole group of beginning developers, not just complaining that he personally couldn't figure something out. Looks like some valid concerns to me, although I hope they don't dump Torque until TDN gets up and running!
#13
09/10/2005 (12:58 pm)
I agree with Chris. Don't give up on Torque. It truly is a great product. We have all struggled in learning some areas. Be persistent and I think you will be happy that you stuck it out.
#14
09/11/2005 (6:41 am)
I haven't had much problems finding the information I want either. Sure, it takes some effort and sometimes you have to experiment.. but it's not impossible.
#15
And TDN is not a solution. TDN is not out. There is no estimated release time.
That's like saying TSE is the best engine ever. TSE is not out. TSE has no estimated release time, and if you ask when it will be out your are kindly but firmly told you don't need to know, you don't WANT to know. GO AWAY!!!
Offer a solution that works in the now. Not a solution that works in the tomorrow of tomorrow.
09/12/2005 (3:56 am)
I haven't had many serious issues trying to locate information... However, I am a single person, and not a group. I can see how a group would have much more problems...And TDN is not a solution. TDN is not out. There is no estimated release time.
That's like saying TSE is the best engine ever. TSE is not out. TSE has no estimated release time, and if you ask when it will be out your are kindly but firmly told you don't need to know, you don't WANT to know. GO AWAY!!!
Offer a solution that works in the now. Not a solution that works in the tomorrow of tomorrow.

Associate Joseph Euan