Plan for Peter Dwyer
by Peter Dwyer · 08/17/2005 (2:52 pm) · 11 comments
Hi all
As I just finished some work for a company who are creating an XBox 360 game or two. I took the opportunity (completely independently and not related to anything NDA at all) to ask the Microsoft rep about a few things.
Chief amongst my concerns was the recent announcement about there being two models of 360. One with a hdd and one without. Now I already know that the hdd version has arcade capability but, what about the non-hdd version?
XBox arcade has games that are downloaded to your hard drive for play period. So I asked, quite obviously, what I was supposed to do if people couldn't download my game! The dashboard doesn't stop you viewing the arcade site, whether you have a hard drive or not so how is this supposed to work?
Well as the title of this plan states. To this question, the man from Microsoft. Him simple say umm... ok so he said I'll er look into this and get back to you on that one but, it amounts to the same thing really.
I thought I'd share that piece of non-NDA info with you guys as the price and specs have now been kind of officially released here in europe.
I hope most buyers of 360 will purchase the hdd version but, if they are cheapskates like me, then Microsoft may have just knobbled Arcade before it's even gotten out of the starting gates. This is not particularly good news for us Indies (though XBox arcade should remain viable for a while yet). It does put the effort I just made in coding some 360 stuff ( a little of which may be arcade bound) to waste somewhat. Now I'm not too sure if there is even going to be a large enough market for the stuff (I've been paid but, I feel for the guys still on that particular project).
I'm now hoping I've missed something, though the dev kits we had were pretty final and I don't see how arcade works without the hdd (downloads are quite quick on broadband with the 360 but, not quick enough to have to download the games every time you want to play them!).
sheesh I'm preying that the two models is a misprint! It's certainly the first I heard of it and I was developing for the danged thing! I suppose they did say don't rely on the hard drive. We all took that as a trick sony ploy though.
As I just finished some work for a company who are creating an XBox 360 game or two. I took the opportunity (completely independently and not related to anything NDA at all) to ask the Microsoft rep about a few things.
Chief amongst my concerns was the recent announcement about there being two models of 360. One with a hdd and one without. Now I already know that the hdd version has arcade capability but, what about the non-hdd version?
XBox arcade has games that are downloaded to your hard drive for play period. So I asked, quite obviously, what I was supposed to do if people couldn't download my game! The dashboard doesn't stop you viewing the arcade site, whether you have a hard drive or not so how is this supposed to work?
Well as the title of this plan states. To this question, the man from Microsoft. Him simple say umm... ok so he said I'll er look into this and get back to you on that one but, it amounts to the same thing really.
I thought I'd share that piece of non-NDA info with you guys as the price and specs have now been kind of officially released here in europe.
I hope most buyers of 360 will purchase the hdd version but, if they are cheapskates like me, then Microsoft may have just knobbled Arcade before it's even gotten out of the starting gates. This is not particularly good news for us Indies (though XBox arcade should remain viable for a while yet). It does put the effort I just made in coding some 360 stuff ( a little of which may be arcade bound) to waste somewhat. Now I'm not too sure if there is even going to be a large enough market for the stuff (I've been paid but, I feel for the guys still on that particular project).
I'm now hoping I've missed something, though the dev kits we had were pretty final and I don't see how arcade works without the hdd (downloads are quite quick on broadband with the 360 but, not quick enough to have to download the games every time you want to play them!).
sheesh I'm preying that the two models is a misprint! It's certainly the first I heard of it and I was developing for the danged thing! I suppose they did say don't rely on the hard drive. We all took that as a trick sony ploy though.
About the author
Recent Blogs
• Plan for Peter Dwyer• Plan for Peter Dwyer
• Plan for Peter Dwyer
• Plan for Peter Dwyer
• Plan for Peter Dwyer
#2
That's true enough. The problem is that the specs for the memory card ;o) (nice image by the way) don't seem to add up.
Anyways the ol' MS dude (he's neither old nor a dude really but you know what I mean) says he'll look into this issue. I don't expect he can do anything about it but we've tried broadband streams of those numbers as you put it and I don't see how it works out when you consider how arcade games are purchased. Am I missing something or do they expect people to constantly overwrite the games they buy?
Don't forget that you can store mp3s etc as well on either media and you need to store save games as well. You do the math. something is really wrong here!
I should also mention all the gamer profile stuff as well, because this is permenantly stored too.
I guess (from talking to the MS guy) I wasn't convinced this has been thought through with any regard for reality. I guess we have a few months to wait and see. I'm hoping I'm missing something fundamental here but, I doubt it.
Edited to add:
Looked over the specs again. And here is what concerns me (can't print stuff from the documents sorry!)
average Broadband connection speed in europe is 1mbit
fastest expected is 8mbit
Most have download limits (though these are being lifted slowly).
Thats a range of 100 to 800k per second download. As the rule is pretty much "work to your lowest expectations so we say 100k a second is the expected speed)
Take say a game that compresses down to...plucks number out of thing air ;o) 32mb. Thats a download time of what 5 minutes for the slowest connection to 40 seconds odd for the fastest connection. Looking at textures that have to look half way decent at 720p and you start to realise there isn't an awful lot of space left in that compressed file for for any gameplay! Now double or even quadruple the download size and your talking anything from a 5 to 20 minute wait at the slowest speeds for a pay n play.
After my part of the project was done, the guys were trimming stuff down and generally trying to minimise things as best they could. I don't know what size they will eventually get to. We were at 128mb last time I looked. Now substitute my "top of the head" numbers for whatever MS told you you should aim for, and as I said, the MS numbers don't add up!
08/17/2005 (5:04 pm)
@PatThat's true enough. The problem is that the specs for the memory card ;o) (nice image by the way) don't seem to add up.
Anyways the ol' MS dude (he's neither old nor a dude really but you know what I mean) says he'll look into this issue. I don't expect he can do anything about it but we've tried broadband streams of those numbers as you put it and I don't see how it works out when you consider how arcade games are purchased. Am I missing something or do they expect people to constantly overwrite the games they buy?
Don't forget that you can store mp3s etc as well on either media and you need to store save games as well. You do the math. something is really wrong here!
I should also mention all the gamer profile stuff as well, because this is permenantly stored too.
I guess (from talking to the MS guy) I wasn't convinced this has been thought through with any regard for reality. I guess we have a few months to wait and see. I'm hoping I'm missing something fundamental here but, I doubt it.
Edited to add:
Looked over the specs again. And here is what concerns me (can't print stuff from the documents sorry!)
average Broadband connection speed in europe is 1mbit
fastest expected is 8mbit
Most have download limits (though these are being lifted slowly).
Thats a range of 100 to 800k per second download. As the rule is pretty much "work to your lowest expectations so we say 100k a second is the expected speed)
Take say a game that compresses down to...plucks number out of thing air ;o) 32mb. Thats a download time of what 5 minutes for the slowest connection to 40 seconds odd for the fastest connection. Looking at textures that have to look half way decent at 720p and you start to realise there isn't an awful lot of space left in that compressed file for for any gameplay! Now double or even quadruple the download size and your talking anything from a 5 to 20 minute wait at the slowest speeds for a pay n play.
After my part of the project was done, the guys were trimming stuff down and generally trying to minimise things as best they could. I don't know what size they will eventually get to. We were at 128mb last time I looked. Now substitute my "top of the head" numbers for whatever MS told you you should aim for, and as I said, the MS numbers don't add up!
#3
08/17/2005 (5:34 pm)
You just won't be able to purchase more Arcade games than you have memory card space for. If you are a heavy Arcade user then it is going to make sense to get a HDD (multiple memory cards would get pricey quick).
#4
Thats the impression I got. The problem is I can't really see anyone going out to get a memory card just to then pay for an arcade download only to have to delete it when the card is full. It makes no sense to me.
MS seem to believe the majority will buy with HDD and that this isn't an issue. Maybe I am reading too much into it or just panicking early. I don't know which I am doing (I'm sure anyone reading this will have an opinion ;o) ) but, I can't silence that little voice at the back of my mind that is yelling "What the frack have they done!"
edited to add:
The MS guy emailed me (didn't check mail earlier :oP) apparently the bog standard unit doesn't include a subscription to live after all! So you can't access this stuff off the bat. I guess (having access to all the bells and whistles when I used the dev kits) I though live was integrated :oP.....
Anyone know if the PS3 will be open standard :o}
Blah! misread what he wrote. You get the membership, you don't get the memory card! That's what he mean't when he said they don't have access to it right off the bat!
08/17/2005 (5:45 pm)
@Matt Thats the impression I got. The problem is I can't really see anyone going out to get a memory card just to then pay for an arcade download only to have to delete it when the card is full. It makes no sense to me.
MS seem to believe the majority will buy with HDD and that this isn't an issue. Maybe I am reading too much into it or just panicking early. I don't know which I am doing (I'm sure anyone reading this will have an opinion ;o) ) but, I can't silence that little voice at the back of my mind that is yelling "What the frack have they done!"
edited to add:
The MS guy emailed me (didn't check mail earlier :oP) apparently the bog standard unit doesn't include a subscription to live after all! So you can't access this stuff off the bat. I guess (having access to all the bells and whistles when I used the dev kits) I though live was integrated :oP.....
Anyone know if the PS3 will be open standard :o}
Blah! misread what he wrote. You get the membership, you don't get the memory card! That's what he mean't when he said they don't have access to it right off the bat!
#5
08/17/2005 (7:59 pm)
I'm a little disappointed that MS did go the multiple version route. I really think the common denominator should have been with a HD. 
#6
08/17/2005 (8:00 pm)
I have a feeling a lot of people will buy the HDD after realizing how usefull it was in Xbox compared to not having one 
#7
The dynamic of the industry has changed due to the fact that the average age of the gamer has changed. Additionally, anyone who purchases XBL arcade games needs a credit card anyway and so they must be older so it ties in with the upgrade because I'm older, I have a job, and have money thing.
I do think it would be more successul if the hard drive were included ... but with the way the industry works now it doesn't mean it's dead in the water. All you need is for Final Fantasy XI to come out (which it is) and that automatically means a few hundred thousand gamers with hard drives ... who'll need something to take a break from Final Fantasy every now and then.
08/17/2005 (9:02 pm)
If this were 10 years ago I'd have said big BIG HUGE mistake. However, with the average age of the gamer now at around 30 it wouldn't be unusual to expect gamers to make upgrades to their systems as they do with their cars or anything else. The dynamic of the industry has changed due to the fact that the average age of the gamer has changed. Additionally, anyone who purchases XBL arcade games needs a credit card anyway and so they must be older so it ties in with the upgrade because I'm older, I have a job, and have money thing.
I do think it would be more successul if the hard drive were included ... but with the way the industry works now it doesn't mean it's dead in the water. All you need is for Final Fantasy XI to come out (which it is) and that automatically means a few hundred thousand gamers with hard drives ... who'll need something to take a break from Final Fantasy every now and then.
#8
08/18/2005 (1:21 am)
I am not 100% on my facts, but I am pretty sure that anyone can get onto Live and create an account and purchase things. I should confirm this, because otherwise I would think that the Live Arcade team would be yelling and screaming. The main barrier to entry in XBLA 1 was the Live account and CD. They removed the CD, which was good, but if the Live account part is still there...I just don't get it. Casual market means people who probably wouldn't get a Live account. I *really* hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot with this. The 360 is a fantastic product, if only they can protect themselves from themselves.
#9
As per my original post. You have hit the nail on the head. This echos exactly what I immediately thought (as my post shows hopefully). I don't see what they are trying to do, it's like the arcade guys are telling us one thing but, the information released to the public contradicts that.
Looking at the base system specs I got hastily sent yesterday (and why I keep saying I must be missing something), I don't even see how this base system is usable period. There is no memory card but, you get silver Live membership (isn't that the 3 month one!) but, no memory card. Live isn't usable at all without the memory card so that makes the live membership just plain useless!
As I said, I'm hoping people buy the standard (not the base) system, though at $399 (
08/18/2005 (2:10 am)
@PatAs per my original post. You have hit the nail on the head. This echos exactly what I immediately thought (as my post shows hopefully). I don't see what they are trying to do, it's like the arcade guys are telling us one thing but, the information released to the public contradicts that.
Looking at the base system specs I got hastily sent yesterday (and why I keep saying I must be missing something), I don't even see how this base system is usable period. There is no memory card but, you get silver Live membership (isn't that the 3 month one!) but, no memory card. Live isn't usable at all without the memory card so that makes the live membership just plain useless!
As I said, I'm hoping people buy the standard (not the base) system, though at $399 (
#10
The way I'd view it is that people who go for the cheaper system wouldn't have bought the full package. By having the option of the core system at least they have committed to the 360 and this means that there is a very good chance they will upgrade rather than buy a different console.
The Silver Live membership allows gamers to chat with friends, download content and use Xbox Live Arcade. Gold Live membership is required to play online.
Also I'm pretty sure that once you've bought a game off arcade you have the option of redownloading it at anytime. Most gamers tend to get a new game, play it to death and then trade it in, so chances are that once they've finished with a game they won't mind deleting it if necessary.
-Greg.
08/18/2005 (2:41 am)
I run a gaming site (gameburst.com) and I really don't see this as a problem. The initial feedback I've seen from the announcement is that the majority of people want (and will buy) the full Xbox 360 package.The way I'd view it is that people who go for the cheaper system wouldn't have bought the full package. By having the option of the core system at least they have committed to the 360 and this means that there is a very good chance they will upgrade rather than buy a different console.
The Silver Live membership allows gamers to chat with friends, download content and use Xbox Live Arcade. Gold Live membership is required to play online.
Also I'm pretty sure that once you've bought a game off arcade you have the option of redownloading it at anytime. Most gamers tend to get a new game, play it to death and then trade it in, so chances are that once they've finished with a game they won't mind deleting it if necessary.
-Greg.
#11
You don't have the option of re-downloading at any time as far as I am aware. Live doesn't remember you bought something. Otherwise people could keep plugging in Friends hard drives and re- downloading your game each time. At least that is how it was explained to me.
You pay for the download. The only exception to this is if the download fails for any reason.
Yep you are right about silver membership, so it is like the dev kits we had in that you seemed to get the service as standard out of the box.
The thing that worries me is that we seem to be relying on everyone buying the standard box and not the base package. This may be a true assumption in america. I'm not so sure it is true of europe though. Here we are so used to being ripped off by american overseas pricing policies that we rarely buy at the higher prices. XBox and even the original PS2 european release were proof of this.
Edit:
I've looked at the conversion rates for Live Arcade (Xbox not 360 obviously) and we are relying a lot on the pick-up rate of Live to make this stuff viable.
08/18/2005 (3:49 am)
@GregYou don't have the option of re-downloading at any time as far as I am aware. Live doesn't remember you bought something. Otherwise people could keep plugging in Friends hard drives and re- downloading your game each time. At least that is how it was explained to me.
You pay for the download. The only exception to this is if the download fails for any reason.
Yep you are right about silver membership, so it is like the dev kits we had in that you seemed to get the service as standard out of the box.
The thing that worries me is that we seem to be relying on everyone buying the standard box and not the base package. This may be a true assumption in america. I'm not so sure it is true of europe though. Here we are so used to being ripped off by american overseas pricing policies that we rarely buy at the higher prices. XBox and even the original PS2 european release were proof of this.
Edit:
I've looked at the conversion rates for Live Arcade (Xbox not 360 obviously) and we are relying a lot on the pick-up rate of Live to make this stuff viable.
Torque 3D Owner Pat Wilson
I am suprised that, in coding for Arcade, you were not made aware of the size requirements and the reasons for them. They were hitting on two specific numbers pretty hard.