Plan for Gareth Fouche
by Gareth Fouche · 08/17/2005 (7:04 am) · 12 comments
Urm, I haven't posted anything in a while, so I thought I'd post an update of what I'm up to now.
Well, its been a few months. Unfortunately, not very productive months. Various RL factors have combined to make my Torque progress rather slow in the last month or two, but things have settled now.
So on to what I'm working on right now. Drumroll please...dum Dum dum... a single player RPG!!!
I hear some groans from my audience.
Ok, hear me out, I'm going to talk a little bit about why I chose to do this (besides the fact that I love RPGs), what needs to be done, market competitiveness.
Firstly, I want to talk about the market opportunities, competitiveness etc.
I am certainly not making a MMORPG. I know it can (potentially) be done (See MoM), but I have never played one, and actually think the growing MMORPG market is working to my advantage here. Alot of the focus is shifting to that type of RPG, whereas the number of single player RPGs that come out (PC) is relatively small. I play RPGs solo, and I know plenty of people who do so as well. I think the mainstream is leaving a void that can be filled. There are long dry spells in between new RPGs, especially as the mainstream pushes the tech envelope. It takes longer and longer to make the suckers. That kind of gap = opportunity.
Not only that, single player RPGs (I'll refer to them as RPGs from now on ;)) are by their nature episodic. Like a book, you finish them. Now I know that applies to all games, but think about the multiplayer field. People play Warcraft long after they've completed the single player campaign, for the competitive aspect. Likewise, people stay in MMORPGS for the social aspect. Lets not even talk about CS or battlefield.
Not so much with RPGs. People play for the storylines, the characters, the character development, just like a book. Just like someone who enjoys murder mystery books, when they finish one, they want to read another, etc. It isn't so much a case of them not reading other novels because there is one that is best. Hopefully that analogy isn't too obtuse :). My point is, just because a good proffesional RPG is coming out, doesn't mean it will dominate the market for years, like a FPS will (see battlefield). And there aren't that many PC RPGs coming out in the near future. Certainly no where near the number of FPS or RTS games for example.
That brings me to the main advantage I think there is for Indies in the RPG field. As I said, the main draw for RPGs is the storylines, the characters, the character development. Now, these things are one of the few places indies can compete effectively against the mainstream, IMHO. It doesn't take multi-million dollar budgets to do these things, like graphics do. Remember, there have been RPGs for a long time, since the beginning of gaming. It requires skill as a designer (what game doesn't?), but I still think it is attainable for an indie. Give people an intruiging story, interesting characters, allies they can connect with and villains they can hate, and pace it so it has that "just want to find out what happens next" feel, and I think you've got a game that will get people buying.
Alright, next point: I know RPGs are a lot of work. Thats why I am choosing to limit my scope.
I think a big problem is aiming too high. I cannot compete with Oblivion, NWN2, Fable, etc. I know this. I will not have 200 types of monsters, facial animation, 100s of quests or super detailed models. I know. I cannot compete with the major players on that front. I am NOT trying to make the last RPG I played, but 'better', with 'more', more features, more everything!
Rather, I am going to concentrate on polishing the hell out of the storyline, trying to get that addictive 'can't put it down' feeling. Anyone remember Baldurs Gate? Icewind Dale? They were great RPGs, but even then the Infinity engine was aging. The thing that made those games great was those story factors and great polished gameplay. Those things make us look past the engine. Take a look at www.spidweb.com. Jeff Vogel makes old school RPGs for a living, with graphics that T2D could easily surpass. RPGs have often lagged behind graphics standards, but fans have been willing to overlook that for the experience underneath.
Also, there are alot of useful resources right here on GG which provide an incredible headstart. Inventories, spells, AI, compass, maps, dialogue systems, content packs. There is a basic RPG system right there. Practically an RPG starter kit by itself. All that is really lacking is a character development system and a quest/journal system.
Ah, but art content, I hear you saying! So much art content!
Yes. I agree. That is why as much as possible I will work to reuse art content. There is a resource on mesh hiding and texture swapping. Utilising this allows for much variation in humanoid characters. Similarly with monsters. I believe instead of 100 monsters, 15-20 monsters with variations, presented well, utilising scripting etc, could make quite an immersive experience. Combined with humanoid enemies, I think it is sufficient.
Similarly for the buildings. I will try to make "lego" like pieces that work together to make many variations. Look at Tim Astes Content packs. You can mix up the objects to create different types of towns, alter textures and "decoration objects" to create different feels, etc. Plus, I don't want to make a vast sprawling world, spanning many different cities, continents, dungeons etc. Rather, a tighter focused experience. Milk each setting for what its worth. Rather than having the player slogging across the continent, put alot of quests and storyline development in the city, add depth rather than breadth. Again, think BG, a significant portion of the game happened in the city. Which means you get maximum value for money from your modelling efforts. I don't want to concentrate on churning out a million models, but creating as immersive an experience as possible with what I have got.
I think this is in reach of indies.
Ok, so where am I currently?
I have a spell system, as I have mentioned, and an inventory system. Last night I put in the incredibly cool RPGdialogue system. I have mission portals (to link levels together). I have yet to put in enemy AI, but the resources are on my hard drive.
Things I want to add to get to a prototype phase :
- A stats system, levels, skills etc. I don't think it will be hard getting something simple in there.
- A Quest/Journal system. I envision quests as objects (in the code), instances of a quest Datablock (I like datablocks). They have an internal 'state', journal entries (text strings) for each state, and an onStateChanged method. You determine the number of states, and write the actions in script for each one. Then there is a Quest Manager, which is responsible for managing the quests, adding the journal entries to the players log book etc. It can be queried for the state of a quest in script, allowing you to set up triggers and encounters etc. Events can be sent to it, altering the state of a quest. So for instance when you kill the Orc king, in its death script it sets the appropriate quests state to complete.
- Monsters having an attached inventory/give exp.
I believe with these in place I can make a VERY rough prototype. Later can come melee combat, shopkeepers, conditionals in the dialogue tree, character appearance customisation, wearing different armours (mesh swapping), interacting with objects. The point is, rough as it is, the basics will be there, and I can begin iterating. Hopefully into something worth playing and paying for :).
Well, this .plan is long and rambling, and I'm tired of typing, so I'm going to stop now.
Well, its been a few months. Unfortunately, not very productive months. Various RL factors have combined to make my Torque progress rather slow in the last month or two, but things have settled now.
So on to what I'm working on right now. Drumroll please...dum Dum dum... a single player RPG!!!
I hear some groans from my audience.
Ok, hear me out, I'm going to talk a little bit about why I chose to do this (besides the fact that I love RPGs), what needs to be done, market competitiveness.
Firstly, I want to talk about the market opportunities, competitiveness etc.
I am certainly not making a MMORPG. I know it can (potentially) be done (See MoM), but I have never played one, and actually think the growing MMORPG market is working to my advantage here. Alot of the focus is shifting to that type of RPG, whereas the number of single player RPGs that come out (PC) is relatively small. I play RPGs solo, and I know plenty of people who do so as well. I think the mainstream is leaving a void that can be filled. There are long dry spells in between new RPGs, especially as the mainstream pushes the tech envelope. It takes longer and longer to make the suckers. That kind of gap = opportunity.
Not only that, single player RPGs (I'll refer to them as RPGs from now on ;)) are by their nature episodic. Like a book, you finish them. Now I know that applies to all games, but think about the multiplayer field. People play Warcraft long after they've completed the single player campaign, for the competitive aspect. Likewise, people stay in MMORPGS for the social aspect. Lets not even talk about CS or battlefield.
Not so much with RPGs. People play for the storylines, the characters, the character development, just like a book. Just like someone who enjoys murder mystery books, when they finish one, they want to read another, etc. It isn't so much a case of them not reading other novels because there is one that is best. Hopefully that analogy isn't too obtuse :). My point is, just because a good proffesional RPG is coming out, doesn't mean it will dominate the market for years, like a FPS will (see battlefield). And there aren't that many PC RPGs coming out in the near future. Certainly no where near the number of FPS or RTS games for example.
That brings me to the main advantage I think there is for Indies in the RPG field. As I said, the main draw for RPGs is the storylines, the characters, the character development. Now, these things are one of the few places indies can compete effectively against the mainstream, IMHO. It doesn't take multi-million dollar budgets to do these things, like graphics do. Remember, there have been RPGs for a long time, since the beginning of gaming. It requires skill as a designer (what game doesn't?), but I still think it is attainable for an indie. Give people an intruiging story, interesting characters, allies they can connect with and villains they can hate, and pace it so it has that "just want to find out what happens next" feel, and I think you've got a game that will get people buying.
Alright, next point: I know RPGs are a lot of work. Thats why I am choosing to limit my scope.
I think a big problem is aiming too high. I cannot compete with Oblivion, NWN2, Fable, etc. I know this. I will not have 200 types of monsters, facial animation, 100s of quests or super detailed models. I know. I cannot compete with the major players on that front. I am NOT trying to make the last RPG I played, but 'better', with 'more', more features, more everything!
Rather, I am going to concentrate on polishing the hell out of the storyline, trying to get that addictive 'can't put it down' feeling. Anyone remember Baldurs Gate? Icewind Dale? They were great RPGs, but even then the Infinity engine was aging. The thing that made those games great was those story factors and great polished gameplay. Those things make us look past the engine. Take a look at www.spidweb.com. Jeff Vogel makes old school RPGs for a living, with graphics that T2D could easily surpass. RPGs have often lagged behind graphics standards, but fans have been willing to overlook that for the experience underneath.
Also, there are alot of useful resources right here on GG which provide an incredible headstart. Inventories, spells, AI, compass, maps, dialogue systems, content packs. There is a basic RPG system right there. Practically an RPG starter kit by itself. All that is really lacking is a character development system and a quest/journal system.
Ah, but art content, I hear you saying! So much art content!
Yes. I agree. That is why as much as possible I will work to reuse art content. There is a resource on mesh hiding and texture swapping. Utilising this allows for much variation in humanoid characters. Similarly with monsters. I believe instead of 100 monsters, 15-20 monsters with variations, presented well, utilising scripting etc, could make quite an immersive experience. Combined with humanoid enemies, I think it is sufficient.
Similarly for the buildings. I will try to make "lego" like pieces that work together to make many variations. Look at Tim Astes Content packs. You can mix up the objects to create different types of towns, alter textures and "decoration objects" to create different feels, etc. Plus, I don't want to make a vast sprawling world, spanning many different cities, continents, dungeons etc. Rather, a tighter focused experience. Milk each setting for what its worth. Rather than having the player slogging across the continent, put alot of quests and storyline development in the city, add depth rather than breadth. Again, think BG, a significant portion of the game happened in the city. Which means you get maximum value for money from your modelling efforts. I don't want to concentrate on churning out a million models, but creating as immersive an experience as possible with what I have got.
I think this is in reach of indies.
Ok, so where am I currently?
I have a spell system, as I have mentioned, and an inventory system. Last night I put in the incredibly cool RPGdialogue system. I have mission portals (to link levels together). I have yet to put in enemy AI, but the resources are on my hard drive.
Things I want to add to get to a prototype phase :
- A stats system, levels, skills etc. I don't think it will be hard getting something simple in there.
- A Quest/Journal system. I envision quests as objects (in the code), instances of a quest Datablock (I like datablocks). They have an internal 'state', journal entries (text strings) for each state, and an onStateChanged method. You determine the number of states, and write the actions in script for each one. Then there is a Quest Manager, which is responsible for managing the quests, adding the journal entries to the players log book etc. It can be queried for the state of a quest in script, allowing you to set up triggers and encounters etc. Events can be sent to it, altering the state of a quest. So for instance when you kill the Orc king, in its death script it sets the appropriate quests state to complete.
- Monsters having an attached inventory/give exp.
I believe with these in place I can make a VERY rough prototype. Later can come melee combat, shopkeepers, conditionals in the dialogue tree, character appearance customisation, wearing different armours (mesh swapping), interacting with objects. The point is, rough as it is, the basics will be there, and I can begin iterating. Hopefully into something worth playing and paying for :).
Well, this .plan is long and rambling, and I'm tired of typing, so I'm going to stop now.
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#2
08/17/2005 (7:49 am)
I agree with Rodney, Gothic is a good example, I loved that game! The world wasn't huge yet there always seemed like theres more places to go!
#3
Good luck with this. :)
08/17/2005 (8:21 am)
Agreed. Morrowind, for example. Now, don't get me wrong, I loved the game, but for all the talk of a huge world, it had very little diversity of stuff. Sure, the scenery changed, to gorgeous effect, but that was about it. A quest was a quest was a quest, wherever you went. It didn't help that all the NPCs essentially said exactly the same thing.Good luck with this. :)
#4
One thing you didn't mention for the things you'd like to add is a Save/Load feature. It's one of the core components of any SP game and something that needs to be thought out at early stages. I have concluded that it's best to add everything you want saved to a SimSet and then save it to a file. There are other ways too though.
What I really need to think about is how to implement what you call "mission portals (to link levels together)" as well as a Quest system. Can you give some more details on your design? I'm debating if it's worth making a Quest Editor GUI so I have a better visual understanding of my quests.
I was also thinking about creating an Item Editor GUI in order to easily add or modify item datablocks but don't know if it's worth it yet.
Nick
08/17/2005 (8:29 am)
I agree with you. I'm making a single-player game too. It's not 100% RPG but instead will have some RPG elements like an inventory, dialogues, map, melee combat, and quests.One thing you didn't mention for the things you'd like to add is a Save/Load feature. It's one of the core components of any SP game and something that needs to be thought out at early stages. I have concluded that it's best to add everything you want saved to a SimSet and then save it to a file. There are other ways too though.
What I really need to think about is how to implement what you call "mission portals (to link levels together)" as well as a Quest system. Can you give some more details on your design? I'm debating if it's worth making a Quest Editor GUI so I have a better visual understanding of my quests.
I was also thinking about creating an Item Editor GUI in order to easily add or modify item datablocks but don't know if it's worth it yet.
Nick
#5
Having three cities of Kobolds, with variations between cities would work.
Simple things like scaling, several different idle animations between breeds, things like that to break up the repetitive npc's would go a far way.
Good luck Gareth
08/17/2005 (9:19 am)
I agree that the re-using of mobs with variations can work. God of War was a good example of this. It does have to be done carefully though. Near the end of GoW I felt like I had seen the same monsters a little bit too much. Having three cities of Kobolds, with variations between cities would work.
Simple things like scaling, several different idle animations between breeds, things like that to break up the repetitive npc's would go a far way.
Good luck Gareth
#6
The other trick is that you WILL have to compete with, say, Neverwinter Nights. There are nearly 5,000 user-created adventures available out there created with that tool, that anybody with the game can download and play. Even if you restrict yourself to just the top 5%, that's more games than anybody has time to play. So you'll need to make sure that whatever you do, you stand out.
Somehow.
Oh - and it's good for a laugh, but I created an RPG in 40 hours called Hackenslash. It was created from scratch with no engine, with a strict time limit of 1 work week (40 hours) of development time. There's a write-up on it available at gamedev.net : www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/gameinaweek/ of what I went through to put it together, some of my thought processes, and so forth. I dunno if it'd be useful or not, but 'jusincase.'
Good luck!
08/17/2005 (10:08 am)
I almost wonder if we should form an Indie RPG SIG or something - there's a lot of us trying to do this kind of thing, but it's a road fraught with peril. There are four indie rpgs reviewed on Game Tunnel that aren't Jeff Vogel games. There's one other indie RPG I'm aware of (The Omega Syndrome). There's a bunch of smaller freeware titles out there that I haven't looked at too closely (see rpgdx.net/) . They are all pretty similar (and often made with the same tools), and all pretty short, from what I understand.The other trick is that you WILL have to compete with, say, Neverwinter Nights. There are nearly 5,000 user-created adventures available out there created with that tool, that anybody with the game can download and play. Even if you restrict yourself to just the top 5%, that's more games than anybody has time to play. So you'll need to make sure that whatever you do, you stand out.
Somehow.
Oh - and it's good for a laugh, but I created an RPG in 40 hours called Hackenslash. It was created from scratch with no engine, with a strict time limit of 1 work week (40 hours) of development time. There's a write-up on it available at gamedev.net : www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/gameinaweek/ of what I went through to put it together, some of my thought processes, and so forth. I dunno if it'd be useful or not, but 'jusincase.'
Good luck!
#7
Perhaps I am looking too far ahead, and maybe you have given it thought but just haven't mentioned it- but do you intend to have the traditional D&D style of character development (not within the context of the story, but within the context of the RPG environment, that is, Attributes, spells, craft system, etc)? Or a more unique aspect of character development? IMO, if you don't want a game to be lost in the shadow of NWN or Morrowind, there needs to be something "new" (or very well polished) about the character development. But in all, I think what you're aiming for is definitely attainable.
It sounds like your off to a phenominal start, best of luck :)
08/17/2005 (12:07 pm)
I'd say you have some very valid points concerning the game market and SP RPG's.Perhaps I am looking too far ahead, and maybe you have given it thought but just haven't mentioned it- but do you intend to have the traditional D&D style of character development (not within the context of the story, but within the context of the RPG environment, that is, Attributes, spells, craft system, etc)? Or a more unique aspect of character development? IMO, if you don't want a game to be lost in the shadow of NWN or Morrowind, there needs to be something "new" (or very well polished) about the character development. But in all, I think what you're aiming for is definitely attainable.
It sounds like your off to a phenominal start, best of luck :)
#8
SIG means? (sorry)
08/17/2005 (11:57 pm)
@JayQuote: I almost wonder if we should form an Indie RPG SIG or something
SIG means? (sorry)
#9
08/18/2005 (12:32 am)
SIG = Special Interest Group ;)
#10
The quest system I need to think about and flesh out, but I see it as pretty similar to an inventory system. Quests are just objects that get added to a player, that various scripts can query. They have an internal state that can transition (script events trigger this), and functions get called when the quest changes state. You as a coder would just make an instance of a quest object, write the onStateChanged() method, and set up various objects in your world to 'give' these objects to the player.
So, for example, talking to the old man in the bar sends a server command activating the 'Rescue Timmy' quest. Rescuing Timmy sets the state of that quest to complete, and the onStateChanged method awards the player Exp and gives him a congratulatory message.
Thats a very good point about the save/load feature. One of the reason I like 'Manager' classes, is that they can be responsable for dumping out state data to file. So the QuestManager can just load up completed quests from a save file etc, and when you talk to the characters they query the Manager to see if the quest is done, before choosing the appropriate dialogue branch.
I see a need for Quest, inventory, stats, monsters and containers to be saved. Included in containers are things like chests, monster corpses.
An RPG coalition might be a good idea Jay.
As to NWN mods, although in one sense I agree with you, in another I don't. For one thing, mod the game all you want, it is still the same game. I've played some of those modules. Eventually, you have fought all the monsters, used all the items, seen all the models, etc. It 'feels' like the same experience.
Secondly, few mods for games ever come close to matching what a proffesional, dedicated developer can do. Few are as complete, some are pretty buggy, and most are nowhere near as long. Playing a series of disconnected mods that each take a few hours is not the same experience as playing through a sweeping, epic storyline (eg BG).
Mods also suffer from the same syndrome that we here at GG do, ie that few people have the commitment to finish their project, and then to polish and polish and polish until the thing shines. A lot of the mods were also designed for multiplayer. Hehe, and just like here at GG, the minute NWN came out, hordes of developers turned to making it into a persistant world MMORPG ;p.
08/18/2005 (12:48 am)
@Nick : The mission portals are from a resource here on GG, just search for them. They are actually quite simple, just triggers that load a new level when you enter them. You can use them for portals or just to connect areas together, NWN style. Simple, yet useful. I am thinking of extending it into a waypoint system, like Diablo, sometime in the future. I actually think it will be really easy to do.The quest system I need to think about and flesh out, but I see it as pretty similar to an inventory system. Quests are just objects that get added to a player, that various scripts can query. They have an internal state that can transition (script events trigger this), and functions get called when the quest changes state. You as a coder would just make an instance of a quest object, write the onStateChanged() method, and set up various objects in your world to 'give' these objects to the player.
So, for example, talking to the old man in the bar sends a server command activating the 'Rescue Timmy' quest. Rescuing Timmy sets the state of that quest to complete, and the onStateChanged method awards the player Exp and gives him a congratulatory message.
Thats a very good point about the save/load feature. One of the reason I like 'Manager' classes, is that they can be responsable for dumping out state data to file. So the QuestManager can just load up completed quests from a save file etc, and when you talk to the characters they query the Manager to see if the quest is done, before choosing the appropriate dialogue branch.
I see a need for Quest, inventory, stats, monsters and containers to be saved. Included in containers are things like chests, monster corpses.
An RPG coalition might be a good idea Jay.
As to NWN mods, although in one sense I agree with you, in another I don't. For one thing, mod the game all you want, it is still the same game. I've played some of those modules. Eventually, you have fought all the monsters, used all the items, seen all the models, etc. It 'feels' like the same experience.
Secondly, few mods for games ever come close to matching what a proffesional, dedicated developer can do. Few are as complete, some are pretty buggy, and most are nowhere near as long. Playing a series of disconnected mods that each take a few hours is not the same experience as playing through a sweeping, epic storyline (eg BG).
Mods also suffer from the same syndrome that we here at GG do, ie that few people have the commitment to finish their project, and then to polish and polish and polish until the thing shines. A lot of the mods were also designed for multiplayer. Hehe, and just like here at GG, the minute NWN came out, hordes of developers turned to making it into a persistant world MMORPG ;p.
#11
Figured that for the mission loading you basically need triggers to load the next one. However the harder part is figuring out how to load things that relate to that particular mission and how to differentiate if the player is starting a new game or loading an existing one that starts him/her half way through the game.
Nick
08/18/2005 (2:37 am)
Gareth, interesting about having quests as objects of the player. Hadn't thought about it that way, I'll definitely try it out thanks.Figured that for the mission loading you basically need triggers to load the next one. However the harder part is figuring out how to load things that relate to that particular mission and how to differentiate if the player is starting a new game or loading an existing one that starts him/her half way through the game.
Nick
#12
08/18/2005 (4:45 am)
a SIG would be cool then :) 
Torque 3D Owner Rodney (OldRod) Burns