Plan for Mark Frohnmayer
by Mark Frohnmayer · 12/17/2003 (2:55 pm) · 13 comments
I've been working on a few different projects recently, but the one I've been focusing on for the last week or so is the Torque Network Library (see the screenshot of the day).
We've always known Torque's networking code was top-notch, and we've decided to make that portion of the engine available without using the rest of Torque. Along the way we've cleaned up and documented a bunch of the networking related stuff that will (probably, someday) make it back into Torque.
Our current plan is to offer the library under several different licenses, with a very affordable (though still more than Torque) license for Indies... existing Torque SDK owners will get a discount if they want access to TNL as well.
Look for more info soon!
We've always known Torque's networking code was top-notch, and we've decided to make that portion of the engine available without using the rest of Torque. Along the way we've cleaned up and documented a bunch of the networking related stuff that will (probably, someday) make it back into Torque.
Our current plan is to offer the library under several different licenses, with a very affordable (though still more than Torque) license for Indies... existing Torque SDK owners will get a discount if they want access to TNL as well.
Look for more info soon!
About the author
#2
Granted, there's little incentive to purchase something that's nearly the same as what you already have - and even more so if it's making it's way back into Torque.
12/17/2003 (4:59 pm)
My guess is that there's been improvements as well as a degree of refactoring, which isn't necessarily a trivial task. I'd be willing to spend a little if there's some value in it.Granted, there's little incentive to purchase something that's nearly the same as what you already have - and even more so if it's making it's way back into Torque.
#3
12/17/2003 (5:06 pm)
Yeah... breaking the net code out cleanly isn't an entirely trivial task; being able to buy JUST the net code with a cleanly documented interface is pretty handy, 'specially if you don't want to have to learn just how it interacts with everything else in the engine.
#4
The question when evaluating the product for your game is - is it worth the price (whatever that may be) for the task you want to apply it to? The TNL will come with standalone documentation, easy to understand samples, and will be much better suited to non-Torque projects than what the $100 Torque license gets you.
12/17/2003 (5:15 pm)
To make it clear - some of the fixes will make it back into some future version of Torque, but the refactored net code (ie, divorced from the rest) will not, anytime soon. It's not a trivial job to yank the net code out of Torque for use in a non-Torque game, especially if you don't know what is and is not the net code :)The question when evaluating the product for your game is - is it worth the price (whatever that may be) for the task you want to apply it to? The TNL will come with standalone documentation, easy to understand samples, and will be much better suited to non-Torque projects than what the $100 Torque license gets you.
#5
12/18/2003 (8:07 am)
It is worthing paying for the effort it took to decouple the netcode from the rest of Torque. No trival task!
#6
Or, even better -- for some reason, I would never plunk down $1000 to buy Torque in one go. But for some reason, there's a part of me that's been conditioned to think that it would somehow be more acceptable to pay $100 every month for access to Torque -- I really think I'd probably end up saying "Well, ok," if I was told that now that is the only way to access it.
Shit -- every time I take my car to the mechanic, I get bent over and spanked to the tune of $150 and up. Torque has been one of a very few purchases that has never let me down -- and all I do is fuck around with it from time to time.
Go ahead.
12/19/2003 (6:08 am)
Besides which -- and this is probably just because I'm a capitalist imperialist consumer whore -- I think they could probably charge 3 times what they're charging now, and I'd probably buy it.Or, even better -- for some reason, I would never plunk down $1000 to buy Torque in one go. But for some reason, there's a part of me that's been conditioned to think that it would somehow be more acceptable to pay $100 every month for access to Torque -- I really think I'd probably end up saying "Well, ok," if I was told that now that is the only way to access it.
Shit -- every time I take my car to the mechanic, I get bent over and spanked to the tune of $150 and up. Torque has been one of a very few purchases that has never let me down -- and all I do is fuck around with it from time to time.
Go ahead.
#7
12/22/2003 (3:53 pm)
This is a great idea. I've been looking for a good replacement to Direct Play.
#8
I and many others could/would not pay $100 for access for anything.
Its people like you that help make the world an expensive place to live.
So what makes the netcode able to be charged more for than torque.
Torque is the whole engine right, netcode is just that (with a few tweaks/whatevers) and you get that netcode with the engine.
Now sure if you wanted just the netcode, then to buy it seperate would be nice, but charging more than for the engine would just be silly!
It would make the TGE seem even more pathetic (not saying it is), since the netcode is worth more outside the engine than included with.
Nevermind.... Why charge more for a specific part of the engine?
12/28/2003 (1:03 pm)
I dont like you Luc!I and many others could/would not pay $100 for access for anything.
Its people like you that help make the world an expensive place to live.
So what makes the netcode able to be charged more for than torque.
Torque is the whole engine right, netcode is just that (with a few tweaks/whatevers) and you get that netcode with the engine.
Now sure if you wanted just the netcode, then to buy it seperate would be nice, but charging more than for the engine would just be silly!
It would make the TGE seem even more pathetic (not saying it is), since the netcode is worth more outside the engine than included with.
Nevermind.... Why charge more for a specific part of the engine?
#9
12/31/2003 (1:24 pm)
Good idea, but I would be a little worried.
#10
Even though buying the Torque engine gets you a huge value for little investment, you have to factor in demand. Because Torque is a game engine, and moreover, one that costs to license, it will likely not be attractive for people that, say, are putting together a Proof-of-Concept "next-generation" Instant Messaging or 'business chat' component (with separate 'boardrooms' where multiple meetings could be held in real time with real interaction between meetings if necessary -- I pulled that out of my ass, but you see what I mean).
Or, of course, for people that want to put together a 'MMORPG', but don't want to spend the time abstracting all of the important parts of the Torque code. Having the networking layer separate would allow you to MASSIVELY modify the core network functionality, without having to keep the rest of the engine functional.
But most of all, I'm thinking about business applications. Myself, I came within a mental hair of specifically reccomending Torque as a component of our next major upgrade -- the idea being that since the system we are upgrading is contingent on organizing data by location, and getting approval to transfer assets between locations, and transferring control of assets in real-time, etc, it might actually be easier to go whole hog and use the Torque GUI engine for the data entry portion -- but use Torque's powerful 3d engine for displaying understandably the reams of organizational data, putting the location/building information in some kind of context, and displaying the state of assets as they are on the server, instead of 'as they are on my spreadsheet'.
I decided not to, obviously, but the Torque networking layer has the kind of powerful real-time networking that we're resigning ourselves to doing without as we're preparing our current upgrade . . . time to put a bug in someone's ear! :D
01/04/2004 (3:56 pm)
Luke -- it's because of value.Even though buying the Torque engine gets you a huge value for little investment, you have to factor in demand. Because Torque is a game engine, and moreover, one that costs to license, it will likely not be attractive for people that, say, are putting together a Proof-of-Concept "next-generation" Instant Messaging or 'business chat' component (with separate 'boardrooms' where multiple meetings could be held in real time with real interaction between meetings if necessary -- I pulled that out of my ass, but you see what I mean).
Or, of course, for people that want to put together a 'MMORPG', but don't want to spend the time abstracting all of the important parts of the Torque code. Having the networking layer separate would allow you to MASSIVELY modify the core network functionality, without having to keep the rest of the engine functional.
But most of all, I'm thinking about business applications. Myself, I came within a mental hair of specifically reccomending Torque as a component of our next major upgrade -- the idea being that since the system we are upgrading is contingent on organizing data by location, and getting approval to transfer assets between locations, and transferring control of assets in real-time, etc, it might actually be easier to go whole hog and use the Torque GUI engine for the data entry portion -- but use Torque's powerful 3d engine for displaying understandably the reams of organizational data, putting the location/building information in some kind of context, and displaying the state of assets as they are on the server, instead of 'as they are on my spreadsheet'.
I decided not to, obviously, but the Torque networking layer has the kind of powerful real-time networking that we're resigning ourselves to doing without as we're preparing our current upgrade . . . time to put a bug in someone's ear! :D
#11
01/14/2004 (8:49 am)
So we will be able to recompile our torque projects with this improved netcode??
#12
If you don't see any value it something, it is simple don't buy it. If you do see the value but don't want to pay then keep quiet. Very simple capitalist economics 101
The net code is definatley worth more stand-alone, just like a car is worth more in parts than it is in its whole.
01/23/2004 (3:47 pm)
Luke get a job and quit complaining you commie :-)If you don't see any value it something, it is simple don't buy it. If you do see the value but don't want to pay then keep quiet. Very simple capitalist economics 101
The net code is definatley worth more stand-alone, just like a car is worth more in parts than it is in its whole.
#13
01/25/2004 (1:18 pm)
Randy - probably won't be a drop-in replacement, but you could certainly port Torque to use the TNL without much pain.
Torque Owner Mz
Wouldn't it make sense to get the cheaper option that also does more?