Plan for Jeff Tunnell
by Jeff Tunnell · 03/04/2003 (9:41 am) · 20 comments
GarageGames has a unique business plan and serves many masters. Maybe too many for the size of our company, but its our vision and we are sticking with it.
First of all, we believe it is extremely important for indie developers to have a distribution mechanism that is developer friendly. It will take us a lot of time and effort to build this up, but I can assure you that if you ever finish a game, you will thank us for these efforts. Jay and myself will continue to pioneer this effort, and someday GarageGames will be a household word among gamers.
On the other hand, we will continue to support our technology efforts. We have had some people using the Torque that criticize us for not supplying enough leadership, or that we should act more like Lithtech (or any other high end technology provider). We went to a lot of personal expense and effort to get the technology behind a major game and a big publisher into the hands of developers to somewhat level the playing field. It was never intended to be our only source of revenue, nor was it intended to be our sole focus.
A little on the defensive here, we do know it is easy to make a game with the Torque as exemplified by Marble Blast, Orbz, Think Tanks, and Tennis Critters. All of these games required relatively little effort and have produced games that are of commercial quality and are being well received. In fact, you will soon see announcements for box deals for some of these titles, and I'm sure they will all make it into the box channel eventually.
This is a validation of our plan, but does not mean we intend to let Torque flame out. OVer the next year we intend to place almost all of our development effort into the Torque and our technologies. We have already discussed this initiative with some of the most prominent members of our community (that are under NDA, so don't ask). You will see the FX version of Marble Blast shown at GDC and E3. This is not a Torque enhancement. It is a joint venture with nVidia to show off MB and FX cards. It benefits the Torque development community since we consider it a self funding research opportunity, and the lessons we learn here will be applied to our engine.
Lastly, I want to discuss our game development efforts. As we have always stated, we intend to make games. It is why we started GG and we will continue these efforts. We took some guff for developing Marble Blast instead of, for instance, writing documentation for the Torque. We ignored these complaints because it is important to have good games to bring players to GarageGames.
Jeff Tunnell GG
First of all, we believe it is extremely important for indie developers to have a distribution mechanism that is developer friendly. It will take us a lot of time and effort to build this up, but I can assure you that if you ever finish a game, you will thank us for these efforts. Jay and myself will continue to pioneer this effort, and someday GarageGames will be a household word among gamers.
On the other hand, we will continue to support our technology efforts. We have had some people using the Torque that criticize us for not supplying enough leadership, or that we should act more like Lithtech (or any other high end technology provider). We went to a lot of personal expense and effort to get the technology behind a major game and a big publisher into the hands of developers to somewhat level the playing field. It was never intended to be our only source of revenue, nor was it intended to be our sole focus.
A little on the defensive here, we do know it is easy to make a game with the Torque as exemplified by Marble Blast, Orbz, Think Tanks, and Tennis Critters. All of these games required relatively little effort and have produced games that are of commercial quality and are being well received. In fact, you will soon see announcements for box deals for some of these titles, and I'm sure they will all make it into the box channel eventually.
This is a validation of our plan, but does not mean we intend to let Torque flame out. OVer the next year we intend to place almost all of our development effort into the Torque and our technologies. We have already discussed this initiative with some of the most prominent members of our community (that are under NDA, so don't ask). You will see the FX version of Marble Blast shown at GDC and E3. This is not a Torque enhancement. It is a joint venture with nVidia to show off MB and FX cards. It benefits the Torque development community since we consider it a self funding research opportunity, and the lessons we learn here will be applied to our engine.
Lastly, I want to discuss our game development efforts. As we have always stated, we intend to make games. It is why we started GG and we will continue these efforts. We took some guff for developing Marble Blast instead of, for instance, writing documentation for the Torque. We ignored these complaints because it is important to have good games to bring players to GarageGames.
Jeff Tunnell GG
About the author
#2
Keep up the great work, and do enjoy yourselves over at GDC.
Interesting times ahead, no doubt
Edit : Changed wording.
03/04/2003 (11:08 am)
I'll chime in with Phil on that one, and I'm glad to see my own line of thinking is along the same lines as old grizzled industry hands as him and the GG crew :)Keep up the great work, and do enjoy yourselves over at GDC.
Interesting times ahead, no doubt
Edit : Changed wording.
#3
I'll second Phil's comment, and amend it with a quick observation - look into your "small game idea" pretty completely before you start getting neck-deep in game developoment. Trajectory Zone was really supposed to be a small game. Then discovering things that Torque did and didn't support easily make work harder, feature creep kicks in, etc., all of it forcing your 'small game' to become a larger and longer task. Make it small, write down your planned features (you don't HAVE to do a 27 page design document on the game, but, a quick but concrete guide for features in the game), and STICK TOO IT. Take it from a guy who's just made that mistake on something he planned on writing in 3 MONTHS, not 1 year ;-) (Ok, and to make the story even sadder, complete with a string section - part of the features that got experemented with and took so long were completely nixed for now, and are supposed to be in TZ2 whenever we do it.) And the reason I say do your planning BEFORE you get into development is that it's REAL easy to get tunnel vision, and loose track of time (days, weeks, even a month can go by without you noticing you've been obsessing over one feature that didn't reall matter!)
Jeff: I'm one of the documentation whiners ;-) However, producing MarbleBlast is indeed more important, even from my view as a Torque licensee. I need to work with a company that's got a good long life ahead of it - if ya' don't make money, ya ain't gonna be around, and what I've licensed quickly becomes useless. I'm out A LOT of effort then. Anyway - I'm glad to see MarbleBlast come out (uh... need to buy a copy one o' these days though ;-), and hope ya'lls continue to make games!
But about that documentation... there's moment where I'd really like to strangle people for the lack of documentation. I like documentation. I love documentation. I needed documentation (heck, most of the stuff I needed it for I FINALLY puzzled out on my own, or with a little help). Quite honestly, I could probably have been done with TZ a lot faster with better documentation.
But documentation INSTEAD OF producing a profitable project? Not that the validation matters that much to ya, but, as one o' the documenation whiners I'd much rather see ya be profitable. Then I know the engine will continue to be supported. Much more important. (I was burned once already purchasing an engine, then have support for it dry up.)
I still don't see why people would think that for a $100 engine, they should expect the same thing that Lithtech, Id, or Epic are peddling. This is an engine for an Indie. GG is doin' great with the engine and all so far :-)
Ok, back to game programming...
03/04/2003 (11:25 am)
...if you ever finish a game, - HEY! I represent that comment ;-) (TZ has now been in development for 11 months :-P But the light is now at the end of the tunnel - next week I have a full week off from work, and what will probably be the last alpha version of the engine will be complete! Time for the beta cycle! ) I'll second Phil's comment, and amend it with a quick observation - look into your "small game idea" pretty completely before you start getting neck-deep in game developoment. Trajectory Zone was really supposed to be a small game. Then discovering things that Torque did and didn't support easily make work harder, feature creep kicks in, etc., all of it forcing your 'small game' to become a larger and longer task. Make it small, write down your planned features (you don't HAVE to do a 27 page design document on the game, but, a quick but concrete guide for features in the game), and STICK TOO IT. Take it from a guy who's just made that mistake on something he planned on writing in 3 MONTHS, not 1 year ;-) (Ok, and to make the story even sadder, complete with a string section - part of the features that got experemented with and took so long were completely nixed for now, and are supposed to be in TZ2 whenever we do it.) And the reason I say do your planning BEFORE you get into development is that it's REAL easy to get tunnel vision, and loose track of time (days, weeks, even a month can go by without you noticing you've been obsessing over one feature that didn't reall matter!)
Jeff: I'm one of the documentation whiners ;-) However, producing MarbleBlast is indeed more important, even from my view as a Torque licensee. I need to work with a company that's got a good long life ahead of it - if ya' don't make money, ya ain't gonna be around, and what I've licensed quickly becomes useless. I'm out A LOT of effort then. Anyway - I'm glad to see MarbleBlast come out (uh... need to buy a copy one o' these days though ;-), and hope ya'lls continue to make games!
But about that documentation... there's moment where I'd really like to strangle people for the lack of documentation. I like documentation. I love documentation. I needed documentation (heck, most of the stuff I needed it for I FINALLY puzzled out on my own, or with a little help). Quite honestly, I could probably have been done with TZ a lot faster with better documentation.
But documentation INSTEAD OF producing a profitable project? Not that the validation matters that much to ya, but, as one o' the documenation whiners I'd much rather see ya be profitable. Then I know the engine will continue to be supported. Much more important. (I was burned once already purchasing an engine, then have support for it dry up.)
I still don't see why people would think that for a $100 engine, they should expect the same thing that Lithtech, Id, or Epic are peddling. This is an engine for an Indie. GG is doin' great with the engine and all so far :-)
Ok, back to game programming...
#4
(And I'm looking forward to the next year... Nothing makes my little heart fill with joy like seeing software become more robust ;)
03/04/2003 (11:55 am)
Good luck, guys! I'm sure y'all'll knock 'em dead ;)(And I'm looking forward to the next year... Nothing makes my little heart fill with joy like seeing software become more robust ;)
#5
Thanks to Jeff, Mark, Tim, um... umm... shoot damn memory corruption.
Anyways, thanks to EVERYONE who is making this dream possible!
- Brett
03/04/2003 (12:20 pm)
I'm hoping that for GDC '04 I'll have something that they can spotlight (as I'm sure many others are as well). I'm working very hard right now to establish a good basic "engine" by utilizing the TGE. Because of what GG has provided me, I consider myself as having moved from the MOD community into a real developer's community!Thanks to Jeff, Mark, Tim, um... umm... shoot damn memory corruption.
Anyways, thanks to EVERYONE who is making this dream possible!
- Brett
#6
Alc
03/04/2003 (12:29 pm)
Although you may hear us moan or whine every now and then I think I speak for the vast majority of people from the community when I say that we are behind you 100% with your development decisions. Though you may walk a different path then we would choose at times we can see your vision. We know that it is going to come to fruition and we want to be around when it does. I would say you are like the Dunedain from Lord of the Rings. You protect the people from the things they don't even know about with little to no thanks. But one day you will be kings.Alc
#7
03/04/2003 (12:41 pm)
I would like to thank GG for there effort. I still think people don't realize what a great deal they got going for us. I'm really glad they are working on games. They need a few revenue streams. If they make no money we are SOL. BTW Tennis Critters looks so damn fun. I didn't know it was a Torque engine game. 
#8
:)
Go GG!
03/04/2003 (1:21 pm)
... zany comment deleted due to possible press links to this plan ...:)
Go GG!
#9
Well what is Tetris if not a big success? :)
I'm actually working on 2D games like this, paid job with cool guys.
I think the most important thing in a game is to have a CONCEPT!
The game can be simple if the idea is well-used it will work.
Just take Max payne, they bring the bullet time (and photorealism), it was a concept of game. Well, some years before, a game called Devil Inside used too the Bullet time, but they've not taken advantages of it. It was simply invisible. Failure...
Have a simple but efficient concept and that's done!
You'll have more news from me soon with game like this! (I hope :-) )
Good luck GG'ers!
03/04/2003 (2:06 pm)
I totally agree on the little game to do. Simple and efficient.Well what is Tetris if not a big success? :)
I'm actually working on 2D games like this, paid job with cool guys.
I think the most important thing in a game is to have a CONCEPT!
The game can be simple if the idea is well-used it will work.
Just take Max payne, they bring the bullet time (and photorealism), it was a concept of game. Well, some years before, a game called Devil Inside used too the Bullet time, but they've not taken advantages of it. It was simply invisible. Failure...
Have a simple but efficient concept and that's done!
You'll have more news from me soon with game like this! (I hope :-) )
Good luck GG'ers!
#10
03/04/2003 (2:18 pm)
Joshua: Geez, that was a bit rude. My experience and ideas might have contributed too - who knows. But I'm not very upset about not bein' asked - allows me to focus on game development, not technology development ;-) Ya know - the part where the short-term money is :-)
#11
:)
Go GG!
03/04/2003 (3:44 pm)
... zany comment deleted due to possible press links to this plan ...:)
Go GG!
#12
I have also had to whin a bit, since i had other members of my team that were whinning at me ;-). But it is getting much more better now since we start to understand more the capability/functionality of TGE and from the advancement we did in recent days i can say it ROCKS!!! And like Jeff mention several time "The best deal on the planet".
And a big thanks for the community out there that have help me get some stuff working. The forums, ressources and other tutorial have been a great place to get some answers. And i am sure TGE will continue to grow and get better if people continue to contribute.
Let all work together with GG and make it a success for everyone!
03/04/2003 (3:57 pm)
I think Jeff made wise decision to keep GG going and be there in the future. Considering their relatively small crew they cant please everyone, and also with the small fee they charge ($100 for the engine) it is even harder to allocate more ressource. I have also had to whin a bit, since i had other members of my team that were whinning at me ;-). But it is getting much more better now since we start to understand more the capability/functionality of TGE and from the advancement we did in recent days i can say it ROCKS!!! And like Jeff mention several time "The best deal on the planet".
And a big thanks for the community out there that have help me get some stuff working. The forums, ressources and other tutorial have been a great place to get some answers. And i am sure TGE will continue to grow and get better if people continue to contribute.
Let all work together with GG and make it a success for everyone!
#13
:)
Go GG!
03/04/2003 (7:38 pm)
... zany comment deleted due to possible press links to this plan ...:)
Go GG!
#14
Make small games, play them, make more small games, play them; then think about bigger games.
Small game development is so much better for the soul as you can already have the end in sight when you begin!
'Strategem' was supposed to be finished by the end of March but it's already around 4 weeks behind, simply because we're indies with day jobs but continue it does because the end is in sight and it's simple and fun.
I don't think documentation, no matter how comprehensive, would help as much as people think here. What most people need is more games development experience and what better way to do this and learn the engine than to create lots of simple little games.
- Melv.
03/05/2003 (7:15 am)
Totally agree with Phil.Make small games, play them, make more small games, play them; then think about bigger games.
Small game development is so much better for the soul as you can already have the end in sight when you begin!
'Strategem' was supposed to be finished by the end of March but it's already around 4 weeks behind, simply because we're indies with day jobs but continue it does because the end is in sight and it's simple and fun.
I don't think documentation, no matter how comprehensive, would help as much as people think here. What most people need is more games development experience and what better way to do this and learn the engine than to create lots of simple little games.
- Melv.
#15
I'm really impressed by the GG efforts, and I think they should do what they think is best. But I don't think someone selling a software product (and a product that should liberate the market at that) can afford to be arrogant enough to say "who cares about documentation".
"What most people need is more games development experience" - Melv, with all due respect, don't you think that people with (more than average) game development experience are not exactly the "indie" market GG is targeting? From my point of view, GG is about bringing new people to the game development arena not to help people with experience develop faster.
I might be wrong, but I think it would be nice to make the "entry" as easy as possible, and good documentaion helps with that. Also good documentation might help people understand the engine as a whole better, in turn helping them to use the technology efficiently. A game engine is a pretty complex piece of software and deserves some effort put into documenting it.
03/05/2003 (11:17 pm)
I think that documentation _does_ help a lot, learning the engine can be either done the hard way or with a little documentation or tutorials. You can download Blender and try to get a clue - and you can download Blender and the PDF manual and try to get a clue. And believe me - the approach using documentation would work better. I'm really impressed by the GG efforts, and I think they should do what they think is best. But I don't think someone selling a software product (and a product that should liberate the market at that) can afford to be arrogant enough to say "who cares about documentation".
"What most people need is more games development experience" - Melv, with all due respect, don't you think that people with (more than average) game development experience are not exactly the "indie" market GG is targeting? From my point of view, GG is about bringing new people to the game development arena not to help people with experience develop faster.
I might be wrong, but I think it would be nice to make the "entry" as easy as possible, and good documentaion helps with that. Also good documentation might help people understand the engine as a whole better, in turn helping them to use the technology efficiently. A game engine is a pretty complex piece of software and deserves some effort put into documenting it.
#16
I dont know what level Jeff and the guys are aiming at, but to be honest, you need to be "reasonably" experienced to be able to get anything good running.
And Melv's damn right, some people really just need to learn more, via experience, by trying to do stuff. Sometimes trial and error is the best way to learn something.
Phil.
03/06/2003 (1:06 am)
Samo, there are many other products out there that help the people with NO experience get into making games. I think to be fair, torque really isnt at the same level as a click and drag game maker.I dont know what level Jeff and the guys are aiming at, but to be honest, you need to be "reasonably" experienced to be able to get anything good running.
And Melv's damn right, some people really just need to learn more, via experience, by trying to do stuff. Sometimes trial and error is the best way to learn something.
Phil.
#17
But rather than having all the people writing documentation, I'd want to have someone integrate a free tool like Blender better (which people were only talking about until now). I think good tools make for a] a more interesting challenge to the coders and b] help _all_ the groups, from the newbie to the experienced developer. But I don't know what plans GG has on this... Having Blender support the Torque file formats would be kinda cool, since it's OSX-Win-linux and would come in handy to more people than, say, 3DS Max support.
Anyhow, all the best wishes for the GDC!
03/07/2003 (8:31 am)
Phil, I basically agree - maybe I was speaking out because I often have the impression that, to people developing software, documentation is a "minor annoyance we'll take care of at some point". Also, like I said, GG makes a great job, I just wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that documentation is not needed. The trial and error way is great for understanding stuff, learning by the book is as good as trial and error and often consumes less time (which is what game engines are about - to save time compared to developing your own engine, even though one would understand the own engine 105%). But rather than having all the people writing documentation, I'd want to have someone integrate a free tool like Blender better (which people were only talking about until now). I think good tools make for a] a more interesting challenge to the coders and b] help _all_ the groups, from the newbie to the experienced developer. But I don't know what plans GG has on this... Having Blender support the Torque file formats would be kinda cool, since it's OSX-Win-linux and would come in handy to more people than, say, 3DS Max support.
Anyhow, all the best wishes for the GDC!
#18
We're all for Blender, though the interface is a little wierd ;) We don't have an in-house effort going at this point, though there are several community efforts under way. A cross-platform replacement for Max (other than MilkShape) would be awesome.
03/09/2003 (5:58 pm)
Samo, nobody here thinks we shouldn't have good documentation, but with a huge list of things on our plate, it seems like the doco always ends up the lowest priority. It won't be that way forever though (I hope).We're all for Blender, though the interface is a little wierd ;) We don't have an in-house effort going at this point, though there are several community efforts under way. A cross-platform replacement for Max (other than MilkShape) would be awesome.
#19
1. More exporters for more 3d modeling platforms with documentation on how to use them.
Forcing you to buy MAX to use ALL the features of the engine is more of a barrier to entry than a measily $100 US for the engine.
2. Raw documentations is not what is needed, real honest to god commented examples is what is needed for most things. See all the Quake/Half-Life sites for examples on what GG needs to help foster third party resource sites.
03/10/2003 (3:01 pm)
Actually dcoumented TOOLS should be a higher priority than just raw documenation.1. More exporters for more 3d modeling platforms with documentation on how to use them.
Forcing you to buy MAX to use ALL the features of the engine is more of a barrier to entry than a measily $100 US for the engine.
2. Raw documentations is not what is needed, real honest to god commented examples is what is needed for most things. See all the Quake/Half-Life sites for examples on what GG needs to help foster third party resource sites.
#20
And congrats to GG on all the good stuff that came out of GDC this year. I'm especially interested in that commercial license; sounds like a great addition to the scheme of things.
~Ian
03/15/2003 (6:57 am)
Well, I must agree technology is not the only thing GG should be focused on; we have seen lately that the community can contribute to the improvements of the TGE, especially with Josh Ritter's work. If more community members contribute their time and programming skill to the engine improvements they will benefit from it as well as other community members.And congrats to GG on all the good stuff that came out of GDC this year. I'm especially interested in that commercial license; sounds like a great addition to the scheme of things.
~Ian
Torque 3D Owner Phil Carlisle
Lesson learnt there!
Doyoon's showing the way with Tennis Critters (and indeed GG themselves with Marble Blast).
So lets RE-STATE the obvious.. one more time... MAKE SMALL GAMES YOU CAN DO QUICKLY AND GET THEM DONE!
A bird in the hand...
Phil.
PS: Have a great time at GDC guys. Take loads of pictures, Ive never been to a GDC.