Plan for Phil Carlisle
by Phil Carlisle · 02/03/2002 (11:01 am) · 13 comments
Am I the *ONLY* person in the world that DOESNT want to do an MMORPG? or anything else massively anything?
Let me just tell you guys something from a bit of painful experience (not just mine, but in general).
Dont take a game you really like but think is flawed then try and make it "the same, but better". It never ever never works.
One thing we see a lot of on gg.com is the "We are doing a game like XXX but bigger and with 10 times the weapons". Or the other classic "We are just getting started, planning on doing a MMORPG".
How about thinking differently and going for a SMOG! (small multiplayer online game).
I just wish you guys would think about the scale of the task your setting yourselves up for. Its almost impossible, even if it DOES happen occasionally.
I just want everyone to be realistic, if you imagine your "game company" without any cash is going to be the next verant (sony) or blizzard (havas) please please please be realistic!
I dont want to come off as negative, you CAN do great things, if you ALL work hard, but its difficult enough to get a team that works AT ALL, trying to do something huge is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
Think small, deliver, and build a reputation. Pay your dues and you WILL get somewhere.
Phil. (rant mode off).
Let me just tell you guys something from a bit of painful experience (not just mine, but in general).
Dont take a game you really like but think is flawed then try and make it "the same, but better". It never ever never works.
One thing we see a lot of on gg.com is the "We are doing a game like XXX but bigger and with 10 times the weapons". Or the other classic "We are just getting started, planning on doing a MMORPG".
How about thinking differently and going for a SMOG! (small multiplayer online game).
I just wish you guys would think about the scale of the task your setting yourselves up for. Its almost impossible, even if it DOES happen occasionally.
I just want everyone to be realistic, if you imagine your "game company" without any cash is going to be the next verant (sony) or blizzard (havas) please please please be realistic!
I dont want to come off as negative, you CAN do great things, if you ALL work hard, but its difficult enough to get a team that works AT ALL, trying to do something huge is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
Think small, deliver, and build a reputation. Pay your dues and you WILL get somewhere.
Phil. (rant mode off).
About the author
#2
Hell, even well known companies have to pay thier dues. Gearbox is still doing that, so it Nerve and a lot of the other smaller indies.
I like your project and approach Karsten, and thankfully you actually work and make progress. I hope you have the success you deserve because of it.
Phil.
02/03/2002 (11:12 am)
Karsten, those werent my words, those were the words of Scott Miller of 3D Realms.. But i think he hit the nail on the head.Hell, even well known companies have to pay thier dues. Gearbox is still doing that, so it Nerve and a lot of the other smaller indies.
I like your project and approach Karsten, and thankfully you actually work and make progress. I hope you have the success you deserve because of it.
Phil.
#3
My main project is a futuristic tactical shooter, in addition to be a "SMOG" it's also a "SPOG" (single player offline game) and "SMPOCG" (small multiplayer online co-op game). Hmm, maybe I should rename the project to some obscure acronym like that :)
Anyway, good point, and I hope they don't keep all the good modelers and programmers away from me when I need them.
02/03/2002 (11:39 am)
Hey Phil, you're not alone, just the minority ;)My main project is a futuristic tactical shooter, in addition to be a "SMOG" it's also a "SPOG" (single player offline game) and "SMPOCG" (small multiplayer online co-op game). Hmm, maybe I should rename the project to some obscure acronym like that :)
Anyway, good point, and I hope they don't keep all the good modelers and programmers away from me when I need them.
#4
02/03/2002 (12:01 pm)
That's why I'm making my game a Morrowind mod. One of the guys from the team wants to keep going and make the game with another team. Of course he was sharply put down...the thought of actually make a game as complex as N-BoM without money is practically inconceivable (I realized that when I started, just figured I'd have fun doing it). I had to learn the hard way. If you don't have funding, I reccomend you start making mods or small, cheap games. Even fan missions look better on your resume than a failed game project. 
#5
In our case, we have to rely heavily on our team members to help us estimate the amount of man-hours necessary for tasks such as concept art, modelling/skinning, interior/exterior production, and sound fx.
Developing and releasing your game in phases seems like a good approach. Divide up the work into bite-size chunks so that the team always has a concrete goal. We wanted to make sure that each phase we had a playable game, even if the number of features or original assets wasn't too high. This is how we have approached our project and so far it is working pretty well.
Dave Myers
21-6 Productions
02/03/2002 (12:22 pm)
It is very easy to fall into the trap of scoping your project too large. Even a SMOG or similar can be too large - small is a relative term that can only be well-defined based on your team and what they can accomplish in a reasonable amount of time. A common problem is that the team does not know that it has scoped too large until they get into the development effort. This is especially true when trying to manage a team in disciplines that you are not familiar. In our case, we have to rely heavily on our team members to help us estimate the amount of man-hours necessary for tasks such as concept art, modelling/skinning, interior/exterior production, and sound fx.
Developing and releasing your game in phases seems like a good approach. Divide up the work into bite-size chunks so that the team always has a concrete goal. We wanted to make sure that each phase we had a playable game, even if the number of features or original assets wasn't too high. This is how we have approached our project and so far it is working pretty well.
Dave Myers
21-6 Productions
#6
the default configuration for our game will pit two teams of seven against one another - somewhere between the 11 per side in football and the 5 per team in basketball. we'll try to support more in a 'pick-up' game mode, but play testing for two teams of 24 will be a rough stretch of logistics and then some.
I'm thinking about a game like Myth:TFL where you were allowed 14 players give or take per match. the number of variables involved in a multiplayer situation with 14 or so players is deceptively large, even with netcode for higher numbers in place.
assuming only a basically competent AI, achieving the necessary polish to deliver a satisfactory experience will require shed loads of effort.
the primary draw to a truly MMORPG (persistent world w/ 100+ players) from a corporate standpoint is the subscription based business model, in exchange for that subscription money though the company has to provide support (on a scale) and expansion (at a rate) that depends on a staggering following.
maybe we could open this up in a forum thread to snare the folks who don't follow .plans?
02/03/2002 (12:39 pm)
I'm in whole-hearted agreement as well - even a SMOG will be a tough haul. the default configuration for our game will pit two teams of seven against one another - somewhere between the 11 per side in football and the 5 per team in basketball. we'll try to support more in a 'pick-up' game mode, but play testing for two teams of 24 will be a rough stretch of logistics and then some.
I'm thinking about a game like Myth:TFL where you were allowed 14 players give or take per match. the number of variables involved in a multiplayer situation with 14 or so players is deceptively large, even with netcode for higher numbers in place.
assuming only a basically competent AI, achieving the necessary polish to deliver a satisfactory experience will require shed loads of effort.
the primary draw to a truly MMORPG (persistent world w/ 100+ players) from a corporate standpoint is the subscription based business model, in exchange for that subscription money though the company has to provide support (on a scale) and expansion (at a rate) that depends on a staggering following.
maybe we could open this up in a forum thread to snare the folks who don't follow .plans?
#7
Oupps... it seems I was touched by the MM... disease.
Do not worry, you're not alone ;)
[disclaimer]....nothing is true....[/disclaimer]
02/03/2002 (12:48 pm)
For my part, we are not making the next killing MMORPG but a simple and funny dogfight game ;) .... in fact it will be bigger than Flight Simulator 2010, larger than any Tribes 2 games, graphically better than FFX, much much more playable than Daytona USA, with better physics engine than GT3 and not the least much funnier than worms .... in two words it will kick ass.Oupps... it seems I was touched by the MM... disease.
Do not worry, you're not alone ;)
[disclaimer]....nothing is true....[/disclaimer]
#8
DoP will rock in its category !
Faster,stronger, smarter and funier than MegaMuchMoreMassivelyMultiplayerOnlineRPG.
Hey I've got a idea Phil : It would be funny to make some Dog of Zap (or a Captain Dop) levels. Instead of MMORPG games, let's create the CrossSMOG. =;->
CU and Good luck
02/03/2002 (1:01 pm)
Yep !!!! DoP will rock in its category !
Faster,stronger, smarter and funier than MegaMuchMoreMassivelyMultiplayerOnlineRPG.
Hey I've got a idea Phil : It would be funny to make some Dog of Zap (or a Captain Dop) levels. Instead of MMORPG games, let's create the CrossSMOG. =;->
CU and Good luck
#9
I guess when we come to it in another years time, we'll see who has and who hasnt got the gg concept :))
Lets hope that at least some of us will have come closer to delivering some kick ass gameplay.
Phil.
02/03/2002 (1:03 pm)
Frank, your project is right on the nail for garagegames's indie development. Its just the right size, can be made to look really good, and takes advantage of the engine (rather than fighting for too many new features).I guess when we come to it in another years time, we'll see who has and who hasnt got the gg concept :))
Lets hope that at least some of us will have come closer to delivering some kick ass gameplay.
Phil.
#10
"We're making this really KICK ASS thing! It will be HUGE! We're just in the development stage right now, but it will be MASSIVE!"
and the project is waaaay out of the scope of a few guys, especially as you say these MMORPGs, which tend to need mega servers to work at all.
Of course, not trying to be too much of a downer.. you CAN be a small team (even a single person!) and make something with a big impact. Counter-Strike springs to mind.
But please don't take that as a cue to make a bunch of realism FPS games, I think we have far too many of those ;)
02/03/2002 (4:48 pm)
I hear you. Look around some of the plans here, and on Sourceforge, and you'll see basically the same thing:"We're making this really KICK ASS thing! It will be HUGE! We're just in the development stage right now, but it will be MASSIVE!"
and the project is waaaay out of the scope of a few guys, especially as you say these MMORPGs, which tend to need mega servers to work at all.
Of course, not trying to be too much of a downer.. you CAN be a small team (even a single person!) and make something with a big impact. Counter-Strike springs to mind.
But please don't take that as a cue to make a bunch of realism FPS games, I think we have far too many of those ;)
#11
02/03/2002 (6:20 pm)
I couldn't believe the number of people that thought they were STARTING with an MMORPG, I mean they clearly have no concept of the size and scope of the games, and no understanding of the infrastructure required to TEST an MMORPG let alone release and support one. It's ok to dream massive, but start with something doable. I see lots of promising ideas, but sometimes you have to start with a simple idea and hold back your "dream" project.
#12
Many projects here at gg.com are a bit to big. but i think most of us had to learn this by ourself. They will learn it too.
02/03/2002 (10:57 pm)
I really agrea with you guys.Many projects here at gg.com are a bit to big. but i think most of us had to learn this by ourself. They will learn it too.
#13
The problem with my team is that the reason the task was too big was not neccessarily because of the project size. I tried to assign bites of parts to different people, as Dave said, the only problem is that they just didn't do it. If you noticed in my .plans, I'd say that certain people would be working on something next week, then repeat in a different way next time.
I think how you manage the team is part of it. I had a well organized system for doing that. But, making a game takes more than one person, which is why there is no "I" in "team." I might be able to map out great missions, but I certainly don't have much modeling skill or graphics programming abilities. Heck, I'm only an average white hat coder.
Despite all that's happened, it looks like a few of the guys from Sylvantec will be coming with me to work on the mod. And this time we've pledged to see the project through.
We're not dead yet. :)
-Steve
02/04/2002 (11:43 am)
Well, our game wasn't going to be an MMORPG, it was going to be a normal SP-RPG with mediocre graphics and some new things to RPGs, which I still think I'd like to inlcude in the mod (mostly because they are more design aspects rather than technical ones).The problem with my team is that the reason the task was too big was not neccessarily because of the project size. I tried to assign bites of parts to different people, as Dave said, the only problem is that they just didn't do it. If you noticed in my .plans, I'd say that certain people would be working on something next week, then repeat in a different way next time.
I think how you manage the team is part of it. I had a well organized system for doing that. But, making a game takes more than one person, which is why there is no "I" in "team." I might be able to map out great missions, but I certainly don't have much modeling skill or graphics programming abilities. Heck, I'm only an average white hat coder.
Despite all that's happened, it looks like a few of the guys from Sylvantec will be coming with me to work on the mod. And this time we've pledged to see the project through.
We're not dead yet. :)
-Steve
Torque Owner Karsten "Clocks" Viese
A lot of the teams are heading for a wake up call.
Although my final project is kinda big, I have seperated it into smaller stages.
I will release these smaller stages as beta tests while working on adding the next stage.
It kinda sounds like your good advise:
Think small, deliver, and build a reputation. Pay your dues and you WILL get somewhere.
// Clocks out