October Update
by Eric Preisz · 10/30/2010 (12:53 am) · 107 comments
It’s been about a month since I posted a blog, so we all agreed that I would take some time to post this blog instead of our normal monthly product update in the forums. We are a heads down right now focusing on Windows Phone 7, so writing one big update will free up the others to keep things rolling. So instead of blogging on a single big topic, I’m going to cover a lot of smaller developments.
Torque 3D Binary
We developed the business case for our binary offering a little over a year ago. At the time, the idea of updating a binary with the final release seemed reasonable. One of the assumptions that was made at the time was that a final 1.1 would be available sooner rather than later. Well, the final release hasn’t happened. One reason that 1.1 final hasn’t arrived is that we have increased the bar for what we consider final. We introduced beta 3, and from what we are hearing from you, we are indeed approaching a higher bar of quality. The numbers of bugs we are now finding and recording are significantly less than the time after our beta 2 release. And while the pro users have benefited from the quality improvement, the binary users sat patiently waiting for 1.1 so that they can get their hands on the fixes and performance increases.
We decided that the binary users have been waiting too long and since beta 3 is such a quality and performance improvement over the 1.0 binary, we came to the realization that it’s only right for us to change our stated policy and give the binary users a binary version of 1.1 beta 3. Your 1.0 and 1.1 beta 3 versions are now available in your account.
Web Site UpdatesWe are continuing to work on our web-site. Right now we are in the middle of big update of our payment processing system in order to accommodate the tax laws both in the US and overseas. I would rather be spending our time on features for our community, but this work is part of doing business correctly. During this update, we’ve been adding some small features to the site and we are continuing to fix bugs the best we can. Two improvements we are working on include Studio Profiles which gives you a place to promote your studio on our site; if this is a popular feature, we will continue to increase the functionality. In addition to the Studio Profile, Resource Filters simplify searching for resources by engine type. |  |
Game Distribution
There are two big challenges a game developer faces. The first is finishing a game; the second, and often overlooked challenge, is distributing your game. These days, it’s hard for you to get your game noticed. Web-distribution is one avenue for bringing your game to the people. We currently have a web-based plug-in for Torque 3D that many of you are using. In addition to that implementation, our company has been working for years on a high-end distribution system. We aren’t ready to make that system available to the masses in the near term, so I’ve been given the company “OK” to start working with third parties who are also developing similar technologies. What this means to you is that we are working towards partnerships so that we can integrate these technologies into our products so that you can more easily take advantage of their offerings. We have started working on a Torque 2D 1.7.6 that will hopefully make it easier for you to distribute your games via the web. More to follow later in blog dedicated to the topic.
TorqueX
GS 3.1 is entering into the sun setting phase and from what we’ve read in public forums, it appears as though games that are submitted using GS 3.1 will be rejected three months after GS Connect 4.0 is released , That means we have x+90 days of 3.1 publishing with x being the number of days until GS Connect 4.0 final release. That put us and our TorqueX developers working towards XBLIG in a bit of a pickle.
To further complicate issues, as you know, we are working on a new XNA based engine that we feel is significant architectural improvement over that of TorqueX. The focus for our initial release is for Windows Phone 7; however, I can tell you that we’ve done XBox tests on our Windows Phone 7 code and it runs on the Xbox 360. This doesn’t guarantee that the Windows Phone 7 code will run on the Xbox 360 at launch; but at a minimum it’s foreseeable that it won’t be far from running on the Xbox 360.
So how are we reacting to this news?
Frankly, we haven’t decided. We are measuring a couple of factors before we make a final decision. Those being:
1) The date of the release of GS 4.0 Connect
2) The state of our Windows Phone 7 Engine at that time
3) The market demand for XBLIG publishing with TorqueX 3.1.5
Here’s what we do know:
1) TorqueX users are allowed to upgrade to 4.0 themselves and publish on any XNA platform ( including the phone)
2) We are dropping our price of TorqueX 3.1.5 to $99 as of tomorrow
3) We added a warning to the check-out so that no one purchase TorqueX without knowing the current situation.
4) Community members (graciously driven by Pino ) have undertaken the job of porting TorqueX 3.1.5 to XNA 4.0 today.
5) TorqueX owners will receive a discount towards our Windows Phone 7 engine.
iTorque 3D
We are continuing to work hard on iTorque 3D, but we have run into some delays. We are currently forecasting a release in Q1 with the hopes of delivering a beta as soon as possible.iTorque 2D
The news for iTorque 2D 1.4.1 is simple. We’ve been continuing to fix bugs and we’ve updated everything so that it is compatible with the last iOS updates. This version will be going to QA soon. Depending on the results of our testing, we could have an update in weeks.
Closing
I just returned from the MAX conference. For those of you who don’t know, that’s the Adobe annual developers conference. I felt out of my element, but their 3D hardware accelerating API caught my eye. As game developers, we need to keep an open mind about the next big platform. It’s a crapshoot.
I stumbled upon Jeff Tunnell’s last blog at GG where he states that Windows, OSX, and Linux are not enough. Jeff’s statements were spot on. And while it was more plausible to hit all of the major platforms two years ago, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to accomplish considering the explosion of platforms ( and the looseness of the definition of a platform ). Consoles, phones, tablets, web-portals, thin clients( i.e., OnLive ), and now TVs. Developers should realize that there may be some real potential to supporting 10 to 20 different “platforms” in the not so distant future. The ocean is big -we are preparing.
About the author
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#62
So we don't count TGE and TGEA? In my estimates they are both on version 3 now. I'm not saying that Torque is complete garbage, but it certainly is not even close to what was promised. I really feel like GarageGames just uses marketing to hype up the engine and NEVER deliver. I honestly would not be surprised in the least to see Torque 3D 2.0 announced in 2011. I can see it now, "Do you want to harness the latest graphics features offered by DirectX 11? Now you can with Torque 3D 2.0. For a very limited time you can get early access for only $350."
Sound familiar anyone?
11/08/2010 (11:43 pm)
Quote:Unity is on version 3.0.0 - Torque is on it's way to version 1.1 after a major update on it's core since the TGEA days.
So we don't count TGE and TGEA? In my estimates they are both on version 3 now. I'm not saying that Torque is complete garbage, but it certainly is not even close to what was promised. I really feel like GarageGames just uses marketing to hype up the engine and NEVER deliver. I honestly would not be surprised in the least to see Torque 3D 2.0 announced in 2011. I can see it now, "Do you want to harness the latest graphics features offered by DirectX 11? Now you can with Torque 3D 2.0. For a very limited time you can get early access for only $350."
Sound familiar anyone?
#63
for those of you who can't tell what's wrong;
the world editor is overlaying the shape editor..and the toolbar is doing the same. It won't fix-itself until the entire package is closed & restarted.
This is one of dozens of bugs that make using this sdk very frustrating.
..and it adds to the running joke that many of us think the QA hall is a myth for marketing.
11/09/2010 (12:12 am)
for those of you who can't tell what's wrong;
the world editor is overlaying the shape editor..and the toolbar is doing the same. It won't fix-itself until the entire package is closed & restarted.
This is one of dozens of bugs that make using this sdk very frustrating.
..and it adds to the running joke that many of us think the QA hall is a myth for marketing.
#64
11/09/2010 (12:34 am)
My main fear is that with the "public" release of Beta 3 (released to the binary users), they are going to focus on other stuff instead of finishing 1.1, which is going to stay in B3 for as long as B1 was. From the bug reports logs in the forum testing on T3D has went down quite a lot... 
#65
That bug was one we found and logged during testing of Beta 2 (I think), one in which 3 people total ran across and didn't know how they got there, including those here on the forums that ran across. Toward the end of September we finally caught a break when a student had it happen while another tester was actively trying to find reproduction steps for it. Long story short, we found how to reliably reproduce it every time and now it will be fixed.
@Oscar
Some elements of testing have slowed down due some retooling that we did in QA. With 1.1 Beta 3 being so stable that very few bugs were being reported against it we took advantage of the lull to make those improvements. Unfortunately the community did eventually start finding some really deep issues and it caused a backlog that we're working to catch up on.
11/09/2010 (12:55 am)
@ebThat bug was one we found and logged during testing of Beta 2 (I think), one in which 3 people total ran across and didn't know how they got there, including those here on the forums that ran across. Toward the end of September we finally caught a break when a student had it happen while another tester was actively trying to find reproduction steps for it. Long story short, we found how to reliably reproduce it every time and now it will be fixed.
@Oscar
Some elements of testing have slowed down due some retooling that we did in QA. With 1.1 Beta 3 being so stable that very few bugs were being reported against it we took advantage of the lull to make those improvements. Unfortunately the community did eventually start finding some really deep issues and it caused a backlog that we're working to catch up on.
#66
..years of nonsense have me feeling a bit jaded tonight.
P.S. plz don't get mad at me for simply showing what's behind the door.
11/09/2010 (1:47 am)
Scott, if I had any patience left for T3D/TP, I'd help report bugs....years of nonsense have me feeling a bit jaded tonight.
P.S. plz don't get mad at me for simply showing what's behind the door.
#67
So I'm curious... No one tryed SHIVA 3D yet? I had a thought about testing it...
11/09/2010 (9:37 am)
A lot of talking about T3D vs UNITY there...So I'm curious... No one tryed SHIVA 3D yet? I had a thought about testing it...
#68
11/09/2010 (10:00 am)
Snipped by moderator. 
#69
With Unity vs Torque, you can see a ying and yang effect going on. Unity has Android, so Torque is going for the Windows phone 7 market space and it does make logical sense to go this route. Whilst this is a good thing from a companies perspective I just hope you guys can manage it all.
edit:
For 3rd party api's I'd like to see a base with a modular expansion system where you could bolt on packs/features that would be self contained and integrate instantly with basic functionality build in whilst giving you the option to make custom code changes would be a neat idea and would also help to issolate problems and increase development workflow. For example: adding in physics engines, that would also update options in TSStatics giving you the ability to turn certain physics functions on/off. Probably the only way you could get these integrated is if you partner with them and work together to create the APIs and embedded functionality.
11/09/2010 (11:07 am)
In a way, releasing 1.1 B3 to binaries is a good thing as it will result in more bugs being found to be resolved. In a bad way it will extend the time taken to fix them and that goal post to 1.1 final will creep further away. No complaints here on that, now that I have a temporary solution on the middleware being upgraded I have no gripes about this and I can now see a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's all about making do with what we have. Making sure that 1.1 is stable/functional and feature complete is key then keeping 1.1 as the base whilst releasing compatible and supported feature packs/modules would be the way to go rather than having several versions with incompatibility issues. I'd personally like to see Torque 3D final breath like a vintage bottle before it evolves into something new and see many completed and released titles out there rather than calling a TGEA title T3D.With Unity vs Torque, you can see a ying and yang effect going on. Unity has Android, so Torque is going for the Windows phone 7 market space and it does make logical sense to go this route. Whilst this is a good thing from a companies perspective I just hope you guys can manage it all.
edit:
For 3rd party api's I'd like to see a base with a modular expansion system where you could bolt on packs/features that would be self contained and integrate instantly with basic functionality build in whilst giving you the option to make custom code changes would be a neat idea and would also help to issolate problems and increase development workflow. For example: adding in physics engines, that would also update options in TSStatics giving you the ability to turn certain physics functions on/off. Probably the only way you could get these integrated is if you partner with them and work together to create the APIs and embedded functionality.
#70
I've been a devout Torque user, and often an evangelist of the products; but as of right now I'm not comfortable with recommending it for a couple reasons:
1) The default download does not build properly if you change the directory.
2) The option to build to a Mac from PC (and vice versa) exists but does not work.
3) The default download doesn't execute in debug mode from Torsion.
4) The game doesn't size properly on a Mac.
5) The community is pretty much dead.
6) No web publishing
7) Lack of updates about the next version
The biggest for me is lack of web publishing; that's why I've moved on to FlashPunk - and when I express excitement about it in this thread, it's metered by Eric in that it's a "fairly small update".
I also had begun working on a genre kit; hopefully for T2D but the lack of information has put it on hiatus. I honestly think it would be in TP's best interests, and massively beneficial to third party developers, to provide info so we can get a running start and have some content available close to launch time.
ps... I still love TorqueScript
11/09/2010 (1:39 pm)
I don't have any experience with T3D, nor it's community, but over the past couple years I've spent a lot of time working on my projects in TGB, helping out in the forums, beta testing other TGB user's games and writing TorqueScript for other people's projects.I've been a devout Torque user, and often an evangelist of the products; but as of right now I'm not comfortable with recommending it for a couple reasons:
1) The default download does not build properly if you change the directory.
2) The option to build to a Mac from PC (and vice versa) exists but does not work.
3) The default download doesn't execute in debug mode from Torsion.
4) The game doesn't size properly on a Mac.
5) The community is pretty much dead.
6) No web publishing
7) Lack of updates about the next version
The biggest for me is lack of web publishing; that's why I've moved on to FlashPunk - and when I express excitement about it in this thread, it's metered by Eric in that it's a "fairly small update".
I also had begun working on a genre kit; hopefully for T2D but the lack of information has put it on hiatus. I honestly think it would be in TP's best interests, and massively beneficial to third party developers, to provide info so we can get a running start and have some content available close to launch time.
ps... I still love TorqueScript
#71
These are the guys who are supposed to be enthusiastic about the upgrades and unabashedly committed to T3D...but there seems to be less enthusiasm here and more of a feeling that we've collectively been duped again by IA.
I was very excited to get my hands on T3D...but very displeased to find it so broken (I only really used the 1.0 GA release).
I was also hopeful for TX, but found that to be even MORE broken.
I went over to the Unity site and I found that site to be about the PRODUCT. This site seems to be more about the forums and community. It's almost like the product line is the red-headed step child that we're trying to avoid making eye contact with.
I don't know a thing about Unity 3D...but truth be told...I don't know a thing about T3D either. After struggling to learn TGE through some really bad docs...I upgraded to TGEA which promised (and failed to deliver) better docs.
I moved then to T3D based on some videos and an attractive price tag...but it's kinda broken and still cryptic in terms of learning.
Unity has a 120+ page tutorial that most people say is amazing. There are no step-by-step tuts of that quality for T3D.
Yes...I'm sure all tools have their ups and downs...and I BOUGHT T3D and not Unity. But it seems that there is a contentedness, both among the community and TP as an organization, to overhype, fall short of delivery, and then move on to the next version of the product.
Look at the XNA engine...it was NEVER completed...then it was pretty much abandoned in favor of the XNA 4 based phone product.
We live in a time when projects are hyped based on the vision and not on the capacity to deliver. I would love to make a game that has the greatest graphics, innovative gameplay, a cutting edge musical score, 3D audio effects, and an addictive social media component. But I can't deliver all that...I'm just not that talented. So for me to create stubs of all that...and then sell it to my users promising that I'll come back and fill in the stubs later with functionality...just doesn't seem like good business.
11/09/2010 (1:56 pm)
Does anyone else find it sad that the community members...the die hards from back in the GG days...are posting about their disappointments and let downs here?These are the guys who are supposed to be enthusiastic about the upgrades and unabashedly committed to T3D...but there seems to be less enthusiasm here and more of a feeling that we've collectively been duped again by IA.
I was very excited to get my hands on T3D...but very displeased to find it so broken (I only really used the 1.0 GA release).
I was also hopeful for TX, but found that to be even MORE broken.
I went over to the Unity site and I found that site to be about the PRODUCT. This site seems to be more about the forums and community. It's almost like the product line is the red-headed step child that we're trying to avoid making eye contact with.
I don't know a thing about Unity 3D...but truth be told...I don't know a thing about T3D either. After struggling to learn TGE through some really bad docs...I upgraded to TGEA which promised (and failed to deliver) better docs.
I moved then to T3D based on some videos and an attractive price tag...but it's kinda broken and still cryptic in terms of learning.
Unity has a 120+ page tutorial that most people say is amazing. There are no step-by-step tuts of that quality for T3D.
Yes...I'm sure all tools have their ups and downs...and I BOUGHT T3D and not Unity. But it seems that there is a contentedness, both among the community and TP as an organization, to overhype, fall short of delivery, and then move on to the next version of the product.
Look at the XNA engine...it was NEVER completed...then it was pretty much abandoned in favor of the XNA 4 based phone product.
We live in a time when projects are hyped based on the vision and not on the capacity to deliver. I would love to make a game that has the greatest graphics, innovative gameplay, a cutting edge musical score, 3D audio effects, and an addictive social media component. But I can't deliver all that...I'm just not that talented. So for me to create stubs of all that...and then sell it to my users promising that I'll come back and fill in the stubs later with functionality...just doesn't seem like good business.
#72
I understand Jon D. this is the same BS I been going thru since 2005, all I want them to do is produce what they say they are going to do. I wish they just kept all Gerhard work in T3D. Now I just want a more stable T3D for 1.1 final with the Wetness and the South Pacific Demo. My Christmas Wish List :)
11/09/2010 (2:03 pm)
Quote:Torque 3D 2.0 announced in 2011. I can see it now, "Do you want to harness the latest graphics features offered by DirectX 11? Now you can with Torque 3D 2.0. For a very limited time you can get early access for only $350."I understand Jon D. this is the same BS I been going thru since 2005, all I want them to do is produce what they say they are going to do. I wish they just kept all Gerhard work in T3D. Now I just want a more stable T3D for 1.1 final with the Wetness and the South Pacific Demo. My Christmas Wish List :)
#73
The problem is continually increasing the number of products offered without a staff increase. The results is that most, if not all, of these products are suffering in both quality and timeliness.
With all of that being said, I really hope that T2D hits one out of the park as I really WANT to like these tools.
11/09/2010 (2:45 pm)
I completely agree with Patrick and Ron. The simple fact that so many people are talking about Unity on a TP update post has to tell the GG/TP folks something... even your most devout followers are looking for alternatives. 1-2 years ago I had a completely different outlook on GG tools, but today... if I wasn't hundreds of hours into my current game using TGB, I'm sure I would be looking into alternatives right now. Unity's following is growing strong because they have a stable product (read: not buggy), frequent updates, and great documentation. TP products are lacking on all 3 of these accounts.The problem is continually increasing the number of products offered without a staff increase. The results is that most, if not all, of these products are suffering in both quality and timeliness.
With all of that being said, I really hope that T2D hits one out of the park as I really WANT to like these tools.
#74
Thanks for the response, Scott. We are looking forward to update our game to take advantage of the many improvements 1.1 has, but we prefer to wait for the final version in order to do just one port.
11/09/2010 (6:10 pm)
Quote:Some elements of testing have slowed down due some retooling that we did in QA. With 1.1 Beta 3 being so stable that very few bugs were being reported against it we took advantage of the lull to make those improvements. Unfortunately the community did eventually start finding some really deep issues and it caused a backlog that we're working to catch up on.
Thanks for the response, Scott. We are looking forward to update our game to take advantage of the many improvements 1.1 has, but we prefer to wait for the final version in order to do just one port.
#75
If by modify/patch you mean fix bugs and get things working i agree with you - that's GG/TP's task (although having code access gives the user the oportunity to do so if he chooses) - however that's not what makes code access a selling point. Code access is a selling point because it gives the user the hability to break out of the black box of the engine and achieve things others wouldn't think about or wouldn't know how to go about to achieve.
Like what Bill Vee is doing in is Day Of War
What to see you do that in any engine without access to the Source Code
Wothout Source code you would need some work around - like have the planets be models while in outher space then load a new level with ground when in atmosphere - course then you would need another workaround to make the planet seam round when flying in atmosphere (ie - have boarders similar and teleport seamlessly between borders without ever seeing end of terrain beyhond the horizon - something like that)
As for the delays and faillures to deliver - i, like you, would love to have this really extra shinny T3D in my hands - with wetness and whatnot - don't missunderstand me on that point - i really would.
But before 1.0 launched they warned wetness was out because it got really broken at some point (ok, they had said would be there before and then wasn't but like i said, get your tool for what it gives now and not for what it promises later - stuff happens and sometimes what was sure isn't anymore).
As for 1.1 delayed, to those who don't pay attention - they went (fairly recently) through a move from Oregon to Vegas, a restructuring of the company, new CEO, new Goal Vision for the company. I hate to say this but i would be surprised if through this all work didn't get disrupted at some point - delays were really more than predictable - was more of a sure thing.
I was hoping for 1.1 final out before christmas but seams not going to happen, but if this means that instead of rushing it out the door to deliver on a deadline set prior to all that disturbance they rather get it out in a state no one can complain about it not beeing ready and having been rushed, than to me that seams the best way to go about it.
I am sorry T3D isn't all it was intended according to what was shown during pre-order (wetness out, etc) - and i do wish that in time they pull it off into making it all it can be - but i can't say i am disapointed by them delaying a few months on release of 1.1 final - seams the right decision - they have delivered on leaving the feature creep out of the beta period (wich although i loved getting new features every new beta on 1.0, there were some bugs that needed attention) and make it stable before release.
Hope they deliver on Q1 as expected now.
11/09/2010 (7:04 pm)
Quote:Available SourceCode as selling argument is poor, because it is the task of GG to modify/patch the engine and the tools. It is not the task of the user.
If by modify/patch you mean fix bugs and get things working i agree with you - that's GG/TP's task (although having code access gives the user the oportunity to do so if he chooses) - however that's not what makes code access a selling point. Code access is a selling point because it gives the user the hability to break out of the black box of the engine and achieve things others wouldn't think about or wouldn't know how to go about to achieve.
Like what Bill Vee is doing in is Day Of War
What to see you do that in any engine without access to the Source Code
Wothout Source code you would need some work around - like have the planets be models while in outher space then load a new level with ground when in atmosphere - course then you would need another workaround to make the planet seam round when flying in atmosphere (ie - have boarders similar and teleport seamlessly between borders without ever seeing end of terrain beyhond the horizon - something like that)
As for the delays and faillures to deliver - i, like you, would love to have this really extra shinny T3D in my hands - with wetness and whatnot - don't missunderstand me on that point - i really would.
But before 1.0 launched they warned wetness was out because it got really broken at some point (ok, they had said would be there before and then wasn't but like i said, get your tool for what it gives now and not for what it promises later - stuff happens and sometimes what was sure isn't anymore).
As for 1.1 delayed, to those who don't pay attention - they went (fairly recently) through a move from Oregon to Vegas, a restructuring of the company, new CEO, new Goal Vision for the company. I hate to say this but i would be surprised if through this all work didn't get disrupted at some point - delays were really more than predictable - was more of a sure thing.
I was hoping for 1.1 final out before christmas but seams not going to happen, but if this means that instead of rushing it out the door to deliver on a deadline set prior to all that disturbance they rather get it out in a state no one can complain about it not beeing ready and having been rushed, than to me that seams the best way to go about it.
I am sorry T3D isn't all it was intended according to what was shown during pre-order (wetness out, etc) - and i do wish that in time they pull it off into making it all it can be - but i can't say i am disapointed by them delaying a few months on release of 1.1 final - seams the right decision - they have delivered on leaving the feature creep out of the beta period (wich although i loved getting new features every new beta on 1.0, there were some bugs that needed attention) and make it stable before release.
Hope they deliver on Q1 as expected now.
#76
I know is late and I think my opinion is nothing for TP but there it is.
a. Integrate all the offspin technologies for T3D. This includes the ArcaneFX, and the many (and impressive) lightning solutions. And do NOT allow people to sell derivative works from the code by themselves EVER again. This just fragments the engine even more. Remember the MMOWorkshop and MyDreamMMO problem.
b. Integrate TGB into T3D. This is basically the most painful step. TGB is based on the TGE code and has such development state that I guess it will be hard to integrate, but not impossible. You must do it even if it means breaking TGB a little.
c. Create a collaborative environment so that any fix in the engine by the community members are immediatly reviewed by TP and integrated into the engine. You get control over any code which is integrated into the engine.
d. You are selling source code, so install an SVN repository so any member on the community can have access to any code version, even night builds. Also if integrated as in c your members can help you solve everything and any change will be immediatly available to everybody. .
e. Make the deployment on PC and Mac a breeze. That is, copy the project to Mac, compile it and you are running. Bring back compatibility with Linux.
f. Open the forums and create free versions of all your tools. Even if they are binary only and simplified versions with no source code. You need to bring the community back together! It always was one of your major selling points. If you have no community then you lose a large portion of sales.
I know those steps will only take care of fragmentation on PC platforms. Mobile will probably need similar routes. But its just a step.
Anyway, your business. I have nothing to do here.
Luck!
11/10/2010 (3:52 am)
Again, I love the engine as many others do. But the idea of fragmenting everything was such a bad move. To be honest, I still don't understand the reason behind the existence of TGB as a standalone product. I know is late and I think my opinion is nothing for TP but there it is.
a. Integrate all the offspin technologies for T3D. This includes the ArcaneFX, and the many (and impressive) lightning solutions. And do NOT allow people to sell derivative works from the code by themselves EVER again. This just fragments the engine even more. Remember the MMOWorkshop and MyDreamMMO problem.
b. Integrate TGB into T3D. This is basically the most painful step. TGB is based on the TGE code and has such development state that I guess it will be hard to integrate, but not impossible. You must do it even if it means breaking TGB a little.
c. Create a collaborative environment so that any fix in the engine by the community members are immediatly reviewed by TP and integrated into the engine. You get control over any code which is integrated into the engine.
d. You are selling source code, so install an SVN repository so any member on the community can have access to any code version, even night builds. Also if integrated as in c your members can help you solve everything and any change will be immediatly available to everybody. .
e. Make the deployment on PC and Mac a breeze. That is, copy the project to Mac, compile it and you are running. Bring back compatibility with Linux.
f. Open the forums and create free versions of all your tools. Even if they are binary only and simplified versions with no source code. You need to bring the community back together! It always was one of your major selling points. If you have no community then you lose a large portion of sales.
I know those steps will only take care of fragmentation on PC platforms. Mobile will probably need similar routes. But its just a step.
Anyway, your business. I have nothing to do here.
Luck!
#77
I have been a big fan of Torque for 8 years. I've spent a quite lot of money on torque related products. I feel comfortable with the engine code and scripts of Torque. So, I want to stick to it. But GG/TP has kept me waiting too long, about a year with T3D. I'm loosing my patience.
What I'm wanting is not so grandiose. I just want a stable version of T3D, the version that doesn't crash down while running. Adding additional features comes after that for me.
11/10/2010 (8:41 am)
I'm running a small online community of Torque in my country. Nowadays, there are almost no visitors to this. But just several months ago, the situation was quite different. I believe this has something to do with the status of T3D.I have been a big fan of Torque for 8 years. I've spent a quite lot of money on torque related products. I feel comfortable with the engine code and scripts of Torque. So, I want to stick to it. But GG/TP has kept me waiting too long, about a year with T3D. I'm loosing my patience.
What I'm wanting is not so grandiose. I just want a stable version of T3D, the version that doesn't crash down while running. Adding additional features comes after that for me.
#78
www.stonetrip.com/shiva-editor.html#comparison
@game4Rest: as for the version of T3D that doesn't Crash, I don't think we will ever get that. Notice how that new EULA(that took months) states that they don't have to fix anything ? ..while they'll never admit that is a scapegoat for them, it's quite funny that it happened when it did.
11/10/2010 (12:00 pm)
I am amazed that the masses are not rushing to Shiva. It's become quite the package over the last 2 years.www.stonetrip.com/shiva-editor.html#comparison
@game4Rest: as for the version of T3D that doesn't Crash, I don't think we will ever get that. Notice how that new EULA(that took months) states that they don't have to fix anything ? ..while they'll never admit that is a scapegoat for them, it's quite funny that it happened when it did.
#79
Can't say that I agree with this. One of the major draws for a separate 2D engine is the scripting library and to integrate it would be problematic to say the least. TP would either have to:
1) Overload all the TGB functions to support the functions that the TGB users are used to and the T3D. This would require work on all the existing TGB functions, plus the additional functionality to make them work in T3D.
...or...
2) Have an entire set of scripting functions for the 3D side and a distinct set for the 2D side. Documentation would suffer and the learning curve for new TGB users would as well. We all want T2D to be easier to learn, right???
Now that is not to say that there are not massive benefits as well including web publishing, Collada in 2d would be awesome, shader support, etc. I just think that basing the 2D engine off the 3D worked for TGE/TGB and can work again for T3D/T2D.
11/10/2010 (2:59 pm)
Quote:
b. Integrate TGB into T3D. This is basically the most painful step. TGB is based on the TGE code and has such development state that I guess it will be hard to integrate, but not impossible. You must do it even if it means breaking TGB a little.
Can't say that I agree with this. One of the major draws for a separate 2D engine is the scripting library and to integrate it would be problematic to say the least. TP would either have to:
1) Overload all the TGB functions to support the functions that the TGB users are used to and the T3D. This would require work on all the existing TGB functions, plus the additional functionality to make them work in T3D.
...or...
2) Have an entire set of scripting functions for the 3D side and a distinct set for the 2D side. Documentation would suffer and the learning curve for new TGB users would as well. We all want T2D to be easier to learn, right???
Now that is not to say that there are not massive benefits as well including web publishing, Collada in 2d would be awesome, shader support, etc. I just think that basing the 2D engine off the 3D worked for TGE/TGB and can work again for T3D/T2D.
#80
I can't take that Shiva thing seriously due to all the drug-references.
I'd love to see the cross-platform core unification happen faster, though. Like early 2010. The foundation in TGB is a bit of a mess, but it works…as long as you can guarantee OpenGL support on the system running it. T3D is more modern, but is lagging behind on the cross bits. It's currently Windows-only as I see it, and the logical server choice hasn't even received any thought at all from TP (that being Linux, of course - what could be cheaper for an indie gamer?).
11/10/2010 (4:37 pm)
TGB is the engine that makes most sense, damn it! It's much more scriptable than any iteration of the 3D engine has *ever* been. Complete & fun games are made with just the unmodified engine + TorqueScript. It really is their best product, in my opinion :)I can't take that Shiva thing seriously due to all the drug-references.
I'd love to see the cross-platform core unification happen faster, though. Like early 2010. The foundation in TGB is a bit of a mess, but it works…as long as you can guarantee OpenGL support on the system running it. T3D is more modern, but is lagging behind on the cross bits. It's currently Windows-only as I see it, and the logical server choice hasn't even received any thought at all from TP (that being Linux, of course - what could be cheaper for an indie gamer?).
Torque Owner Jack
The problem isn't being able to use the 'tool', the problem is, the 'tool' is rusted and falling apart and there are better tools out there.
I can use a shovel by myself, or I can hire someone to use a backhoe and get the job done. I can tell them how I want it done, and the job will get done exactly how I want it done, or I can dig at it with my shovel which will take a lot longer but I have personal control over it.
I would rather at least get something shipped.
The Torque 'marketing' is what sells the engine, not the engine itself.