Hobbyist Pricing - Digital Shock Outsourcing
by Thanhda Tie · 01/06/2010 (3:44 pm) · 58 comments
Introduction
Hi guys, this is Thanhda from Digital Shock. As some of you already know, we are offering 2D & 3D Contract artwork through the TorquePowered Store. This week I will be going over our new Hobbyist pricing, showing you how you can save money.SEASONS GREETINGS FROM DIGITAL SHOCK!!!
As another successful year for gaming rolls by we decided to sip on some eggnog and shake things up a little bit. As you know Digital Shock has quite a presence not only in North America but internationally as well. With that said this holiday season we are giving back to the Indie Guys. Why? Because large corporations like INSTANT ACTION, UBISOFT, DIGITAL SHOCK, ACTIVISION, NGMOCO etc… all started somewhere. In fact it’s the collaboration of innovation across all game developers big and small that keep this industry alive and strong. So in light of the innovation of our Indie friends world wide we are introducing our Indie vs. Hobbyist program.
Q. How Does It Work?
A. As you already know Digital Shock has some of the most competitive rates along with some of the best quality in the gaming world today. So to help the little guy out with a big dream but smaller budget we decided to drop our art prices to $20 USD per man-hour.
Q. How can such a large studio like yourself afford to give such a great rate? Do you still make profit?
A. The average artist gets paid roughly $60k per year, which in turns out to be $29 USD per man hour. So in a sense Digital Shock is taking a loss to give the hobbyist a chance to make a game.
Q. This doesn’t make any sense, how does Digital Shock make money? What’s the Catch?
A. We don’t like to look at this as a catch, more so the deal, how this works is simple. Digital Shock and the client will negociate a flat rate base on the scope of the project. At which point the client will only have to pay $20 USD per man-hour and will have a set time agreed upon to pay the remaining balance. Otherwise Digital Shock will have the rights to re-sell this product to the community to mitigate its losses.
We find that this method would be very effective to the hobbyist community. Many hobbyist projects don’t go too far, but end up more so as a portfolio piece to get themselves into the industry. We are giving a chance for the hobbyist to make their game come to life, without making themselves bankrupt. Giving them a chance to scrap the project without having to worry about spending an arm and a leg.
Q. Is there a restriction to this license agreement?
A. This license agreement will be similar to the content pack commercial license. You can do whatever you want on it, but! re-sell it as a content pack.
Q. Do I have to use Torque Engine to take advantage of this deal?
A. No, this deal is for anyone who request a quote through the Torque Powered Store.
Q. This is amazing pricing, but how much do other studios charge in-comparison?
A. Well first of all, no other studio is offering this special. Digital Shock is a commercial studio production house. We compare ourselves to bigger studios such as Red Jade, Massive Black, or Shadow In Darkness. These studios charge anywhere from $50 USD per man hour to $100 USD per man hour and pay their employees ranging from $60k to $100k a year. If you are not a hobbyist and would like to talk more details on our indie/commercial pricing. Please contact us for a quote.
Q. What services apply to this Hobbyist pricing?
A. Everything we offer except for concept art or illustration work. Unfortunately we can not mitigate our losses by selling concept art/illustration work on the Torque Powered store. So we pretty much only offer this discount for 3D models that need to be made from ground up. This rate will not apply for just texture work, or just modeling work.
Q. How long does it take to make a model?
A. You can find yourself a rough estimation Here. This is calculated in man-days. 1 man-day = 8 man-hours. Remember this is still just a rough estimation, so sending in a quote request is still good to do. Prices always varies depending the art asset itself.
Q. Coming up next blog.. Community Art Packs?
A. Find out more next blog!
In the meantime, check out our Demo Reel
Digital Shock Product Page
You can also see our wider portfolio @ DigitalShock.net
Q. I'm not a hobbyist
A. Check out our previous blog Here
PLEASE NOTE: If you send a request, please note that you are looking for Hobbyist Pricing
Who we have worked for
#23
I would only do final cost, don't care about how much an artist can/can't make a year (I have made $300 an hour in my younger days by busting my butt, so I don't buy you would be loosing money:))
01/07/2010 (12:49 am)
I am not following. So you are saying you will tell me it takes 40 hours to do my character, and so my total cost is $800. Or are you saying that I have to pay $20 per hour no matter how many hours it takes?I would only do final cost, don't care about how much an artist can/can't make a year (I have made $300 an hour in my younger days by busting my butt, so I don't buy you would be loosing money:))
#24
In the initial stage we do not make any money, but in the end of the term we make our money back one way or the other. It's more so an investment in our side of things.
Lets say it we decide to charge you $45.00 USD per hour and you wanted to buy 40 hours. You will pay 40hrs x $20/hr = $800 USD.
At this point you have x time period to pay the remaining 40hrs x $25/hr = $1000.00 USD if you want full exclusive rights to the model.
If you choose not to pay the remaining balance of $1000.00 USD, Digital Shock will now have the right to re-sell the model on Torque Powered site to mitigate its losses. However the model will only be available for indie purposes and can not be distributed on a commercial title.
You however have still full rights to commercial rights to this model, and can publish it in as many commercial titles as you wish. You are just not allowed to sell the source files.
We may add an option to allow the customer to extend the period of time before we go public with the assets.
01/07/2010 (1:13 am)
@RandyIn the initial stage we do not make any money, but in the end of the term we make our money back one way or the other. It's more so an investment in our side of things.
Lets say it we decide to charge you $45.00 USD per hour and you wanted to buy 40 hours. You will pay 40hrs x $20/hr = $800 USD.
At this point you have x time period to pay the remaining 40hrs x $25/hr = $1000.00 USD if you want full exclusive rights to the model.
If you choose not to pay the remaining balance of $1000.00 USD, Digital Shock will now have the right to re-sell the model on Torque Powered site to mitigate its losses. However the model will only be available for indie purposes and can not be distributed on a commercial title.
You however have still full rights to commercial rights to this model, and can publish it in as many commercial titles as you wish. You are just not allowed to sell the source files.
We may add an option to allow the customer to extend the period of time before we go public with the assets.
#25
What they are saying is if it takes them 20h to make it it will cost $400, and they will give you one month to pay the commercial price which is like $50-$100 every 1h just to have all rights to your 3d object. If you don't pay the rest you still get to keep your 3d object that they made for you, but they will have the right to do what they want with it and basicly they will just sell it as a asset for everyone on TP site.
Ether you pay the full price if not then your getting riped off. They are going to make allot more money when they put it on TP site for cheaper to cover the rest of the cost to make it and then it would not be a unique object.
It would be better just to buy off one of the other sites that sells 3d things thats not unique but do they have what you are looking for is the thing.
I already know I not doing anything from DSN as they don't take paypall and all the other methods I don't like. I added it up for a nexgen character which on that site it way 10-15 days that would cost me $1600-$2,400 which is just to much. There lowest nexgen character is to much still. I looked in the next section, and I did not like any of the 3d things and for those its way to much as I can find those all over for like 0-$50 each.
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Thats the way I see it ether way its to much for me unless I don't pay them the rest of the money which its no longer unique. This is why we pay artest in the first place is to make something thats one of a kind not 1 in a 1000.
sorry for complaining so much, but I just had to say something.
01/07/2010 (1:17 am)
Yes it cost $20 a hour no matter how many hours it takes.What they are saying is if it takes them 20h to make it it will cost $400, and they will give you one month to pay the commercial price which is like $50-$100 every 1h just to have all rights to your 3d object. If you don't pay the rest you still get to keep your 3d object that they made for you, but they will have the right to do what they want with it and basicly they will just sell it as a asset for everyone on TP site.
Ether you pay the full price if not then your getting riped off. They are going to make allot more money when they put it on TP site for cheaper to cover the rest of the cost to make it and then it would not be a unique object.
It would be better just to buy off one of the other sites that sells 3d things thats not unique but do they have what you are looking for is the thing.
I already know I not doing anything from DSN as they don't take paypall and all the other methods I don't like. I added it up for a nexgen character which on that site it way 10-15 days that would cost me $1600-$2,400 which is just to much. There lowest nexgen character is to much still. I looked in the next section, and I did not like any of the 3d things and for those its way to much as I can find those all over for like 0-$50 each.
------
Thats the way I see it ether way its to much for me unless I don't pay them the rest of the money which its no longer unique. This is why we pay artest in the first place is to make something thats one of a kind not 1 in a 1000.
sorry for complaining so much, but I just had to say something.
#26
No problem, you have the right to express your thoughts.
1) We will allot more then 1 month for payback depending on the size of the project. If you read some of the other points, its a great way to save money on prototyping.
2) The client gets commercial rights to the model, where the other people are just indie rates and can not be used in a commercial production. If Randy was to contract us out for a game project called "Sky Bot" and have us make a model of the main hero "Tom", we would re-sell the pack titled "Sky Bot - Tom". Randy can still make his game "Sky Bot" and sell it commercially if he wanted to. But if an indie user purchases this pack, they can only really use it for non-commercial usage, otherwise TP or Randy can possibly sue them.
3) Paypal = Fraud. I have personally been frauded by a buyer that paid me first. You can retract a payment especially for non tangible goods.
4) Of course we make money if we sell it on the Torque Powered Store, should we not make anything? If you have a problem with this, then you can just pay upfront for everything.
5) This services is not for everyone, if you are looking to spend $50 per character, and don't mind have non-consistent art. I'd strongly recommend checking out Turbosquid or 3DRT. Great sites!
6) The purpose of this really to be honest is more so to let the hobbyist have a chance to get their game out. Think about it. What happens if you think you got the best game project in the world. You have limited funds to make it, and don't want to risk everything on it. This allows you to take a smaller risk, then a larger risk. If the project fails or gets forgot about, well at least you didn't spend all your money.
01/07/2010 (1:31 am)
@BrandonNo problem, you have the right to express your thoughts.
1) We will allot more then 1 month for payback depending on the size of the project. If you read some of the other points, its a great way to save money on prototyping.
2) The client gets commercial rights to the model, where the other people are just indie rates and can not be used in a commercial production. If Randy was to contract us out for a game project called "Sky Bot" and have us make a model of the main hero "Tom", we would re-sell the pack titled "Sky Bot - Tom". Randy can still make his game "Sky Bot" and sell it commercially if he wanted to. But if an indie user purchases this pack, they can only really use it for non-commercial usage, otherwise TP or Randy can possibly sue them.
3) Paypal = Fraud. I have personally been frauded by a buyer that paid me first. You can retract a payment especially for non tangible goods.
4) Of course we make money if we sell it on the Torque Powered Store, should we not make anything? If you have a problem with this, then you can just pay upfront for everything.
5) This services is not for everyone, if you are looking to spend $50 per character, and don't mind have non-consistent art. I'd strongly recommend checking out Turbosquid or 3DRT. Great sites!
6) The purpose of this really to be honest is more so to let the hobbyist have a chance to get their game out. Think about it. What happens if you think you got the best game project in the world. You have limited funds to make it, and don't want to risk everything on it. This allows you to take a smaller risk, then a larger risk. If the project fails or gets forgot about, well at least you didn't spend all your money.
#27
For #2 I must of missed where it said non-commercial but what if they use it to make a movie, or if they release the game for free then they are not making money so its not commercial so they can still use it.
edit:
forgot one thing for paypal there is a option where you put a checkmark on a box that say something like you can't retract your payment i think thats what GG has set up if you use paypal. might have to have GG post about that or someone that knows paypal better then me. :P
01/07/2010 (1:41 am)
well I looking for a nexgen character or at lest close to it at around $250 which to me looks like you don't have.For #2 I must of missed where it said non-commercial but what if they use it to make a movie, or if they release the game for free then they are not making money so its not commercial so they can still use it.
edit:
forgot one thing for paypal there is a option where you put a checkmark on a box that say something like you can't retract your payment i think thats what GG has set up if you use paypal. might have to have GG post about that or someone that knows paypal better then me. :P
#28
If I get to that point, I would probably opt for the commercial option and simply try to pay an agreed upon price. Sounds like you have several options to work with:)
@Brandon
$2400 may not be right for you. But I have already spent almost $1200 on different character models and they all need work to "look" like I want them to. So I would easily pay that at some point to get something close to what I want.
@Thanhda
Eagerly awaiting your COOP blog:)
01/07/2010 (1:47 am)
Still think your prices are fair. I myself have Character models from those sites and they are great for testing/prototyping. But they do not compare to a custom character.If I get to that point, I would probably opt for the commercial option and simply try to pay an agreed upon price. Sounds like you have several options to work with:)
@Brandon
$2400 may not be right for you. But I have already spent almost $1200 on different character models and they all need work to "look" like I want them to. So I would easily pay that at some point to get something close to what I want.
@Thanhda
Eagerly awaiting your COOP blog:)
#29
Yes for sure. Just like how people make youtube video of Master Chief vs Samus, great video!
I wouldn't mind if someone was to make a fan-movie based on my game, as long as its entertaining.
What people lack the knowledge of a next gen character. Check out my previous blog on how a nexgen character is made.
@Randy
It's already in the works, you'll see soon. I think that blog a lot more people will be interested in, since they don't have to pay as much.
01/07/2010 (1:48 am)
@BrandonYes for sure. Just like how people make youtube video of Master Chief vs Samus, great video!
I wouldn't mind if someone was to make a fan-movie based on my game, as long as its entertaining.
What people lack the knowledge of a next gen character. Check out my previous blog on how a nexgen character is made.
@Randy
It's already in the works, you'll see soon. I think that blog a lot more people will be interested in, since they don't have to pay as much.
#30
I have the money to spend big bucks but if I spent all that money on 1 or 2 characters then what am I going to do.
My spending limit is $50k I have already spent $5k of that on just tools and I still got at lest 5-10k left to spend on tools thats $15k out the door and its just tools. Though at lest 3-5k of that tool money I don't have to pay till I finish and ready for release. I am just trying to keep my buget as low as I can as it can go faster then I know it just like the first $5k.
Maybe I just not willing to pay that kind of money for 1 character because I can do it my self. Well besides rigging as I can't get the arms on the one I already made to animate right. Textureing is kind of a pain as well though mine don't look to bad. Here is a render of the top 1/2 of my character.
01/07/2010 (2:05 am)
Randy you said $1200 for different character models that means more then one it would cost that much with there price just for 1 character.I have the money to spend big bucks but if I spent all that money on 1 or 2 characters then what am I going to do.
My spending limit is $50k I have already spent $5k of that on just tools and I still got at lest 5-10k left to spend on tools thats $15k out the door and its just tools. Though at lest 3-5k of that tool money I don't have to pay till I finish and ready for release. I am just trying to keep my buget as low as I can as it can go faster then I know it just like the first $5k.
Maybe I just not willing to pay that kind of money for 1 character because I can do it my self. Well besides rigging as I can't get the arms on the one I already made to animate right. Textureing is kind of a pain as well though mine don't look to bad. Here is a render of the top 1/2 of my character.
#31
Maybe its time to figure out what you can do with that budget? Wouldn't you rather have a AAA quality model with lower specs then a higher res lower quality level art? Just a thought.
Also what is the tris count on that model?
01/07/2010 (2:15 am)
Brandon,Maybe its time to figure out what you can do with that budget? Wouldn't you rather have a AAA quality model with lower specs then a higher res lower quality level art? Just a thought.
Also what is the tris count on that model?
#32
I don't even know how many hours I spent on it this is the best and most complex thing I ever done. Allot is new to me, also I never animated or rigged anything befor besides this one. I also keep changeing 3d programs as I keep finding better ones that I like. I think I finally picked one which is the character you see above done in modo, but rigged and animated in softimage.
One other thing is trying to get the character to look or at lest close to look like that render and it don't look like that ingame even with normalmap the color looks flat. :P
This is why I want a character made up for me I kind tired of putting so many hours into one thing when I could pay someone to do it as long as its not expensive. :P i still learned allot though with this character and the female which is not textured yet and the male is not done with textureing ether. I kind of put a stop on both as its to much of my time when I should be moveing onto other things though I have done other things, but allot of time is in 2 characters.
O and these characters have mouths as well just to let ya know.
01/07/2010 (2:29 am)
Tri count is 87838 its not LOD yet though I have a LOD of 5k made for it already have not made any others yet.I don't even know how many hours I spent on it this is the best and most complex thing I ever done. Allot is new to me, also I never animated or rigged anything befor besides this one. I also keep changeing 3d programs as I keep finding better ones that I like. I think I finally picked one which is the character you see above done in modo, but rigged and animated in softimage.
One other thing is trying to get the character to look or at lest close to look like that render and it don't look like that ingame even with normalmap the color looks flat. :P
This is why I want a character made up for me I kind tired of putting so many hours into one thing when I could pay someone to do it as long as its not expensive. :P i still learned allot though with this character and the female which is not textured yet and the male is not done with textureing ether. I kind of put a stop on both as its to much of my time when I should be moveing onto other things though I have done other things, but allot of time is in 2 characters.
O and these characters have mouths as well just to let ya know.
#33
Direct link Here!
Here is a comparison of the difference between our studio vs an indie developer(You).
The point is, you pay for what you get. I'm not saying to stop modeling, because one day you may very well reach the level of our trained staff.
Time is also money to most people, and we deliver quick. :)
Edit
Brandon's model cost him nothing but, spent many long hours :P
01/07/2010 (2:35 am)
Direct link Here!Here is a comparison of the difference between our studio vs an indie developer(You).
The point is, you pay for what you get. I'm not saying to stop modeling, because one day you may very well reach the level of our trained staff.
Time is also money to most people, and we deliver quick. :)
Edit
Brandon's model cost him nothing but, spent many long hours :P
#34
Believe me I understand... I am recently divorced so i got a big boost in my budget:) Wife said if I bought one more game or computer we were finished! Man, I am gonna miss her.
Anyway.... Wait for the next blog. Perhaps you have a character that someone else is willing to help spread your cost out some more, save your budget and let you work on the actual game.
Take care. I have to get ready for the snow!
01/07/2010 (2:41 am)
@Brandon,Believe me I understand... I am recently divorced so i got a big boost in my budget:) Wife said if I bought one more game or computer we were finished! Man, I am gonna miss her.
Anyway.... Wait for the next blog. Perhaps you have a character that someone else is willing to help spread your cost out some more, save your budget and let you work on the actual game.
Take care. I have to get ready for the snow!
#35
If I can scrounge up money, DSN are high on my list.
01/07/2010 (2:54 am)
@Thanhda: I looked at your 300-1000 polygon times, and I like the examples I see, as well as the time expected :)If I can scrounge up money, DSN are high on my list.
#36
Glad to hear that, just send in a request via Product page, and we'll work something out!
Note: The hobbyist listing may not be quite functional yet, so just put a note under description.
Cheers.
01/07/2010 (3:00 am)
@RonnyGlad to hear that, just send in a request via Product page, and we'll work something out!
Note: The hobbyist listing may not be quite functional yet, so just put a note under description.
Cheers.
#37
Time is money and I know I already spent more time then I should on the characters I have. That character is not $250 its free because I put the man hours in. :P though if I was getting payed no one would want it for how many hours are in it.
That is why I do not have a wife it would cost me more then its worth and nothing on my game would ever get done. :P
Ya well I not to much in a hurry though I do wan't a character maybe within 1-3 months as I want to test it and get him/her working right with all the other little code bits like attacking and stuff. I then just drop in the rest of the 3d assets when they get done.
I also don't really want to buy a ready made character off of other sites as who knows what it would look like in game and if it will even work in game rig and all.
I think I will wait a wile longer and maybe put up a Community Art Pack vote in on there next blog for a plain character much like mine with or without cloths. The cloths would need to be mount ons as I do not want them in the base mesh as I know I will not want them for my project.
I tryed to get others to make a character pack of what I want but so far there is non thats high quality without cloths in the base mesh.
01/07/2010 (3:03 am)
Man hes fast at adding my character in that img to compare.Time is money and I know I already spent more time then I should on the characters I have. That character is not $250 its free because I put the man hours in. :P though if I was getting payed no one would want it for how many hours are in it.
That is why I do not have a wife it would cost me more then its worth and nothing on my game would ever get done. :P
Ya well I not to much in a hurry though I do wan't a character maybe within 1-3 months as I want to test it and get him/her working right with all the other little code bits like attacking and stuff. I then just drop in the rest of the 3d assets when they get done.
I also don't really want to buy a ready made character off of other sites as who knows what it would look like in game and if it will even work in game rig and all.
I think I will wait a wile longer and maybe put up a Community Art Pack vote in on there next blog for a plain character much like mine with or without cloths. The cloths would need to be mount ons as I do not want them in the base mesh as I know I will not want them for my project.
I tryed to get others to make a character pack of what I want but so far there is non thats high quality without cloths in the base mesh.
#38
You won't have to wait too much longer :P, my next blog will be about exactly that. Digital Shock has plans for a Community Art pack services(Environments/Characters), with a similar voting system, but with a pre-paid plan. More detail will be on my next blog. Stay tune for that!
01/07/2010 (3:11 am)
@BrandonYou won't have to wait too much longer :P, my next blog will be about exactly that. Digital Shock has plans for a Community Art pack services(Environments/Characters), with a similar voting system, but with a pre-paid plan. More detail will be on my next blog. Stay tune for that!
#39
Digital Shock sounds like a great value for those who do not have the resources or talent to create their own characters, but games usually have more that one character. For a hobbiest for 4 characters would be over $2600. If I had that kind of money, I'd buy Maya.
I have studied human anatomy extensively for the last 10 years, and have made a anatomically correct, physically pliable arm. Your knowledge/rendering of anatomy is weak. Try showing a naked, flexing forearm.
01/07/2010 (10:39 am)
I has been my dream to get back into character modeling and animating. In college, I had "Best of Show" for my 3-D character work, but after graduating, I have not been able to afford Maya, nor a computer that lasts or works well. Digital Shock sounds like a great value for those who do not have the resources or talent to create their own characters, but games usually have more that one character. For a hobbiest for 4 characters would be over $2600. If I had that kind of money, I'd buy Maya.
I have studied human anatomy extensively for the last 10 years, and have made a anatomically correct, physically pliable arm. Your knowledge/rendering of anatomy is weak. Try showing a naked, flexing forearm.
#40
I don't have a flexing arm handy, but here is a shot of a shirtless guy
Direct Link Here!
In your case Nathan, I think you will be more interested in our Community Art Content package we will be talking more in our next blog.
01/07/2010 (11:54 am)
@Nathan,I don't have a flexing arm handy, but here is a shot of a shirtless guy
Direct Link Here!In your case Nathan, I think you will be more interested in our Community Art Content package we will be talking more in our next blog.
Torque 3D Owner Dreamarvel