#1 Not quite indie pricing, I could be wrong :)

#2 hmm so thats why i never got a reply. :P time to find someone else and i have to agree with funky its not indie priceing. on the gg site it said you would work around our buget needs it don't look that way though. i was willing to pay more then most i thought was i wanted a real high quality.

i not trying to get on your backs i just thought it was more for indie developers.

#3 @Funky
Most independent studios we have worked in the past have project ranging from 10k to 250k budgets. We find most commercial projects range anywhere from 500k~5,000,000k USD

#4 Actually, it is decent 'indie' pricing, ..it's just not 'hobbyist' or 'bedroom developer' pricing.


Thanhda, can I suggest that you clarify your position on the "rights". ..that is murky.

Example: - What if DSN builds a character from a client's concept? ..after payment, shouldn't it then be the client's model to use whenever and however they wish without restriction while only allowing DSN the right to use as a portfolio image ? Please overly-clarify this as it is currently quite off kilter in that murky divide. Thx.

#5 @eb.
Price may vary depending on the licensing agreement. For example if a client wants us to do work for them as a ghost developer having zero rights to claim credit for the work, the price will go up.

#6 @Thanhda

Well, there are 2 categories of indies:
1) Indies with big money like Valve (they have there own artist and dont visit Torque forums for obvious reasons :) ) or Pangea (they hire a full time artist on sub-$3000 margin to crank a lot of models/skinning) and they always want to own all their art in FULL
2) (true-so-to-speak) Indies with little money (99% of TorquePowered.com members) with a budget of $1000-$2000 to spend of ALL the art for their game

I'm just afraid that your pricing is for (false) Indies who have hidden financing from smaller publishers like Chillingo or Gameloft, who can afford to spend that much money on the art to justify further spending on marketing... I'm not compelled to spend that much money to face a possible breach of my own IP with art produced by DigitalShockNetwork.

I just speak my mind ;)

#7 @Funky
You dont loose any IP Rights. We just have the right to show work we did to our clients. Some cases we can't show the art via web, but allowed to show our work to people face to face, or via NDA. We however will be offering a new hobbyist pricing that will effect IP Rights. You will see more of that next blog.

#8 @Thanhda

After reading your reply to EB, I'm afraid not so many people here will want to work under such licensing terms... You just cannot ask an indie to pay that much and be locked into a project related usage restriction, then to pay even more to get a true royalty free licensing terms.

Update: you clarified some of the points with your previous comment, but the text in your main post still reflects unclear royalty related issues. It will be helpful if you make it sound more straightforward.

#9 @Funky
No price has been discuss in this blog. Rough price ranges have been set. The average outsourcing studio charges $50~80 USD per hour. Average freelancers will charge anywhere from $35~40 USD per hour.

Our licensing agreement doesn't follow under the "murky" agreement. We will however be offering a hobbyist license agreement soon that may be more suited towards the "murky" agreement. Price brackets for this agreement will be much more affordable.

#10 @DSN, Your prices are considered normal for the industry. I have priced out work over the years to many different contractors from around the world and the only people that would undercut your price on original 3D work would be some Chinese shops.
So your price list is about right for the "Big" indies, but perhaps not "Garage" based indies.

I think that your pricing is fine with projects with the budget of a new car. Unfortunately here, most would be in the lower budget projects.
Right now with the economy the way it is, most of us self financed operations have to tighten the belt and do with a lot less.

Your work is fantastic, and I am sure well worth every penny. You have a nice talent pool!

#11 @John
Well put, I believe you got the right terms going on with Big vs Garage Indies.

#12 @Thanhda

I'm not trying to be hostile, please, dont get the wrong impression; I was just trying to make the same point as John (above) in different words, and give you the impression from the other side of the fence ;)

It's just the fact that DSN wont get much business here with such prices, when I can find an artist for $10-$15/hour (or similar flat rate per model) who will spend 16-20 hours per model (or 2-5 hours per texture) with acceptable quality for a casual "Garage" project.

#13 @Funky
I understand where you are coming from, and we are in the works with coming up with a plan to suit hobbyist pricing :) Just you wait!

We just want to be clear to the community what to expect for what indie pricing is.

#14 Hi Thanhda,

I must agree that the rights portion is a bit murky. From your text:

"You will get exclusive copyrights to publish the work in the product for which it was designed. Additional rights may be licensed from us if you require them."

Just a comment, if I'm paying some money for the development of an asset, then I expect full rights to do what I want with the asset. DSN name may be in the credits and may publish it in their site but thats all. I shouldnt be limited how I will use it. If I decide to use and reuse it in many games then I should have the right to do it. If I decide to pack all the models and sell them as content packs in Garage Games or any other site then I should be able to do it.

Luck!
Guimo

#15 Hi guimo

your comment is exactly what you get. Is that an issue?

#16

Quote: If I decide to pack all the models and sell them as content packs in Garage Games or any other site then I should be able to do it.

And it seems all he is saying is that if you want such exclusive rights, then he(they) charge above his(their) bottom fee.

Exactly the same everyone else out there in the industry does, and what I do with code solutions for customers as well. That cant be no biggie!

#17 @Funky Diver - The terms you have used, "true-so-to-speak" and "false", are completely asinine. There is a SINGLE definition to the term "Indie"

Independent of external finances or control. There is no dollar range, AT ALL, on that definition. The only appropriate terms you can apply are "low budget" and "high budget", which are self explanatory and can be used in accurate responses:

"The pricing is not very low-budget Indie friendly." Exactly, that's why it's called "low budget." You have a small amount of finances you have to tightly budget to meet the bare minimum to finish a game. However, if your budget is dropping below $1k or $500, then you are definitely getting into the Hobbyist range of pricing...which they have an answer for:

Quote:Price is too much for you?
Don't worry, we have not forgotten about you hobbyist in the community. We will be soon launching a Hobbyist licensing agreement which will offer a more affordable way of bringing your game to life.

I, too, just speak my mind =)

#18 Code solutions are not the same as textured polygonal volumes.
Code solutions require a concept and solution where as modeling could just be based as a re-visualization or re-rendering of an already created conceptual/solution.

I think the issue here is with: where does an artist get the right to claim rights over a client's model just because they built "the model" and *not* "the concept/idea" for which upon the model was based..and I believe this falls within "did they or didn't they create the concepts which are considered the artistic foundation of the model".

- If I were an architect, I would not design a building and then allow an artist to gain rights over the concept I created/built just because that artist can build polygonal volumes and use ArchCad materials. That is laughable...very very laughable actually.

I find this to be a murky area within which I am not sure where artists think they gained so much power without that initial IP/concept addition to the job. Rebuilding someone else's ideas/IP does not bestow rights upon them IMO. ..yet that is not to say that they can't ask for such rights. However, anyone who falls for this scheme is making the decision of their own accord. I would never do such a thing from either side of this scenario.

Oh well, to each his own. Happy New Year.

#19 The right to show off their work for their portfolio is something I am 100% on board with. I wouldn't want it any other way, as a happy artist is one who won't refuse to work for you again ;)

I think the wording "publish the work in the product for which it was designed" could mean a lot of things. If a customer designs some character concepts for the artists to actually model and texture, and part of the design is to use them in sequels/a range of games, does the price go up?

When it comes to the price, $5000+ for casual game art is actually not bad in the industry, if the low-end is something like a few pieces for a match 3 type of game and the bare GUI essentials. I've seen people pay that and more just to have some concept art drawn up.

It *is* out of my budget, but a self-financed indie is able to afford it (I know of a few). I'm glad Digital Shock are working on some even indier options (independent of publishers fat wallets?).

You can find dirt-cheap labour in China, which is fine for small projects where you only need some art. If you start outsourcing too much, it could end up like Bad Day L.A. ;)

#20 I have added additional FAQ that seems to be coming up a lot.