The New Magic Word
by Brett Seyler · 11/12/2009 (4:02 pm) · 289 comments
Last week, Epic Games made a pretty big splash announcing the "UDK" or Unreal Development Kit. UDK is based on the *very expensive* Unreal Engine 3, the most dominant game engine in the big budget console games space. There's been a lot of hyperbolic talk about how this is an "end of days" development for Torque and our friendly Copenhagen competitors, Unity. I want to take a while here to talk about what I think this means for Torque and where we fit in the competitive landscape.When the announcement showed up, of course I immediately wanted to dig in and find out what was up. I took some time and looked at the license on the UDK site. Many people here downloaded the UDK to play around with it and see what was what. It turns out that the UDK is basically an up to date set of editors for Unreal Engine 3. There's no source code provided. Instead, as with modding, you can do scripting with Epic's Unrealscript. You can package your project for Windows only. There are docs online, but otherwise no dedicated support. So let's be clear. This is NOT Unreal Engine 3. That would kill a huge source of revenue (supported, source code licensing for PC and consoles) for Epic. It *is* a well-tested, rich set of editors for making stuff based on UE3 games or projects.
What's the license like for this? Well, Epic is slapping up the word FREE everywhere and who doesn't love something for FREE right? It's a magic word. The UDK website grants you (for free) a license to make non-commercial works. If you want to make money, or benefit indirectly somehow from using the UDK (think making a demo to advertise or sell something else or a company who wants to train employees with a simulation), you have to pay. The terms of making something commercial with the UDK are actually a bit murky because Epic does not post the license on their site or allow you to purchase a commercial license on thier site. Instead, they give you an email address to hit up and describe the terms of the license structure.
Option A: You benefit (somehow) from using and distributing UDK projects, but there's no revenue. You can pay $2500 / seat annually for this use of the UDK.
Option B: You sell, advertise on, or somehow directly or indirectly, generate revenue from a project made with UDK. You pay $99 up front and you give up 25% of all revenues exceeding $5000 on that project.
Pretty straightforward options! It would be nice to see the license, but assuming it's reasonable, sounds like a pretty fair deal. So what's the catch? How does Epic make money from this? They don't. Not really. This is a loss leader and an evangelism play and it really doesn't cost them much of anything to do. For years you've been able to spend $60 on Unreal Tournament, Gears of War, or other Unreal titles and use the provided editors to modify the game. You can do a lot with mods and people have created really cool stuff. Epic never monetized this practice before. Instead, they used it as a way to create longer tail sales for their games and to recruit new talent from the modder community. By offering the "UDK," Epic is taking the next step by letting people distribute Unreal mods without requiring ownership of the modded Unreal game. In addition to formalizing what they've always done with the mod communities built around Unreal, Epic is likely to heavily monetize the inevitable step from UDK --> UE3. This is no small step and it will cost small teams as much as Epic can wring out of them, in addition to the 25% royalties they are already on the hook for. My guess is that it will be case by case, but it's guaranteed that most teams will run into barriers not having access to the engine source, just as they do with other binary-only engines.
I'm not going to dismiss this move by Epic. It matters. Here's why...
#1: It's Epic (no pun intended). They are an absolute behemoth in the games industry. They've absolutely demolished all competitors in the AAA console engine space for the last 5 years, essentially since EA acquired Criterion, makers of Renderware, and stopped licensing it to 3rd parties. They have an established business selling very expensive (think 6-7 figures, depending on the royalty rate) licenses for big budget console games and now, they've decided they want indies, amateurs, and hobbyists to use their product too. That's a pretty decent market disturbance.
#2: It's validation. When I wrote about the hyper-competitive, well-served big budget AAA space while discussing the pricing and licensing of Torque 3D back in January, I noted that the AAA middleware market hasn't grown much in the last decade and it continues to be a pretty fixed size market. At the same time, the space Torque and Unity occupy (better accessibility and opportunity via lower licensing costs and more attractive platforms) has grown tremendously. This community here grows by hundreds of users every week. A larger portion of the games industry as a whole is moving away from stagnant AAA console games and targeting super-fast growing platforms like the iPhone, Facebook, and yes, even just regular PC online games. Clearly Epic must see something they like in these markets. They missed the boat on the Wii and they are probably struggling to maintain (let alone grow) revenues in the AAA console space. I'm not sure if this will be a long-lasting commitment on Epic's part, or simply a way to maximize the value of their current tech while the new stuff (UE4) is what they're going to start pushing to high-end clients, right around the corner. Regardless, validation is nice.
#3: Now everyone can see behind the "AAA" curtain. We've been telling you for years that Torque is top-notch technology. We've said "it's documented up to, and in many cases well beyond the industry standard." Without being able to look at engines like Unreal, that's been a hard claim for you guys to verify. Now you can. Have a look at UDK. Look at the tools. Look at the docs. Test out the support. We think you'll find that Torque 3D stacks up very well in comparison, and all without the licensing burden of big royalties or high-cost access to source. Putting aside source though, it's worth answering the question:
What does Torque currently do better than Unreal?
Rendering - Torque is the first affordable engine with a deferred renderer. You have real-time dynamic lighting and shadows. You can have thousands of dynamic point lights in a scene at almost no hit to performance. You can't do this in Unreal. Torque's Light Pre-pass rendering is the standard for the current era of hardware. CryEngine uses it as do many of the best looking games on the market.

Contrast this with Unreal, which uses a years old forward renderer that does not allow for global dynamic lighting or shadows. In fact, UE3 does not support more than one dynamic light casting shadows on the same object. It will switch shadows automatically to the nearest light. A directional light will allways switch off any light's shadows. With Unreal, all global illumination is baked. Everything you can do in Unreal, you can do with pureLIGHT in Torque 3D, but with Torque, you can combine dynamic global lighting and shadows with beautfully baked static lightmaps that give you realtime iterative results, not an hours long, black box baking process. Looking ahead, we'll probably be the first affordable engine with DX11 support, and I doubt you're going to see that from Unreal until UE4, likely a couple years away from public licensing, at least.
Terrain (editing AND fidelity) - Definitely test out the UDK terrain editors next to Torque 3D's. The UDK terrain tools are several generations behind us. In Torque 3D, you get much nicer terrain fidelity as well. It takes the right artwork to show this (which you'll see with Pacific Demo here in a few weeks), but the advantage for Torque is clear.

Networking - Out of the box, Torque 3D will do things that you'll never get UDK to do without source code access and a LOT of work. It's as simple as that.
Platform support - Capable deployment to OSX machines is increasing a very important component to success for small teams. Torque 3D offers a path to every major platform out there (Windows, Mac, Web, Wii, Xbox 360, iPhone, with PS3 and PSP in the works).

Special purpose tools. - The road and river tools are just the beginning, but there's a lot more coming in 1.1 and 1.2 that you haven't seen before and which you definitely won't find in UDK.Community resources, add-ons, and extensions. This is such a talent-rich and generous community. We do our very best not to take your contributions for granted. Rather, a major focus, particularly on this website in the next year, will be adding features that make the surfacing, sharing, and vetting of community resources and project much easier and much more powerful. There's really a lot we can do here and you're going to see constant improvement.
Now, UDK has some things not currently in Torque in it's favor as well. Nice features like nav meshes for AI, improved animation tools, etc. are all on our roadmap, but not yet in Torque 3D, so we've still got plenty of work ahead of us to keep up and stay competitive.
We want to take Torque much further, allowing developers to unlock opportunities on the best emerging platforms. That's going to take continued work and investment in the product by us, but we run a pretty lean operation, we reinvest nearly every dollar you spend with us back into product development, and we are moving *super* fast.
'FREE' might just be the new SSAO
We realize that staying ahead of the curve on technology is just part of the equation. The licensing model we choose is important and we're paying attention to all this FREE stuff as much as the rest of you. We want to offer something at a very accessible price, or perhaps for FREE as a good entry to learning and using Torque 3D. Currently, our free option is a demo, limited by the number of objects you can place in your scene. This obviously isn't useful to create an entire game, but it does give you a good feel for what Torque 3D's tool set can do, given that it's not feature limited in any way other than not including the source code.
By comparison, UDK also gives you everything for free, no features limited by the free version other than the source code, but you cannot use it to make anything commercial without payment. The cost, at minimum, is $99 + 25% of your revenues (after $5k total). Unity strips a great deal of their features out of their free version. These can drastically handicap development for some teams, but there's no reason why you couldn't finish some games with it either. The license is liberal, so it's a good stepping stone to make your first game, solo, if you're willing to live with some of the feature limitations.

So where does Torque 3D fit in all of this? Our "Professional" version, which includes source code, access to beta builds, private forums, etc is just $1000 / seat. We don't currently have an option between this and our free demo, but we want one. I think the recent developments by Unity and Epic and all the new developers trying their hand at 3D games warrants a low-priced option for Torque 3D, as well.
At the end of September, when we released Torque 3D 1.0, I included a poll contemplating an full-featured, binary-only version of Torque 3D to go for $500 / seat. Though the results were overwhelmingly in favor of this option, I think we can do better. In the past, I've been really happy with the feedback you've given us making decisions like this, so I want to enlist your help again.
What should we do?
What would you be happy with?
What do you think would be best for the community the future of the product?
Do we want a more elite, experienced community of programmers here?
Do we want to create a more balanced mix of great artists too?
I have my instincts on these questions, and we've discussed them a great deal internally, but I've always come back to this community as one of the big reasons to choose Torque for a new developer. It's one of kind and I want to keep it together and help it grow as much as possible. That won't happen if we don't have a competitive offering in Torque. This means we need enough income to feed the developers and keep the product blazing ahead full speed. But at the same time, if every new beginner cuts their teeth on UDK or Unity because they have viable free option and Torque doesn't, well, I don't like the position that puts us in for the long run either.
So please, let us know what you think! I promise I'll listen and weigh all feedback carefully. I hope to make a decision on this by the end of the month, so let fly with the suggestions and opinions. It's all welcome.
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#162
http://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/18741/6#comment-143863
This is what I was trying to say. He said it in many fewer words. (I'm guessing he hasn't been dealing with severe back pain for nearly a week like I have, that might help.) Anyone who is making anything more than an "out of the box" game needs help. TGEA and T3D are simply NOT complete game making systems, they are ENGINES, we know that. We also know it means we have to do a lot of work to get the engine to the point that it's the game we want it to be. This means adding people - sometimes many people - to our team, at many levels. Most are not going to be programmers, they're going to be artists, musicians, level builders, quest writers, etc. We also will need to add a whole team of testers at various points throughout development.
Developer, "Hey, can you help me with my game?"
Volunteer, "Sure! Sounds like fun! How can I help?"
Developer, "Well, first you have to spend $1000 on the engine, so I can give you access."
This is not really the kind of response that someone who has offered to work for free (or for cheap) that inspires people to get excited about helping.
And if the developer has to fork out another $1000 out of pocket for every new person that joins their team? That isn't particularly conducive to team building practices and achieving what it takes to finish the game either.
Not every contributor works on a game from start to finish. In my experience, maybe only 5% stay on the team from start to finish, the rest just work for a period of time and then they move on. $1000 is plainly prohibitive. That's all I'm saying.
Unity and Epic have played a new card. A challenge has been laid on the table. What will GG do with it? Will GG up the ante? Call? or fold? Doesn't sound like they plan to fold so I'm curious to see if they up the ante or call the draw.
11/15/2009 (11:43 pm)
+10 William Leehttp://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/18741/6#comment-143863
This is what I was trying to say. He said it in many fewer words. (I'm guessing he hasn't been dealing with severe back pain for nearly a week like I have, that might help.) Anyone who is making anything more than an "out of the box" game needs help. TGEA and T3D are simply NOT complete game making systems, they are ENGINES, we know that. We also know it means we have to do a lot of work to get the engine to the point that it's the game we want it to be. This means adding people - sometimes many people - to our team, at many levels. Most are not going to be programmers, they're going to be artists, musicians, level builders, quest writers, etc. We also will need to add a whole team of testers at various points throughout development.
Developer, "Hey, can you help me with my game?"
Volunteer, "Sure! Sounds like fun! How can I help?"
Developer, "Well, first you have to spend $1000 on the engine, so I can give you access."
This is not really the kind of response that someone who has offered to work for free (or for cheap) that inspires people to get excited about helping.
And if the developer has to fork out another $1000 out of pocket for every new person that joins their team? That isn't particularly conducive to team building practices and achieving what it takes to finish the game either.
Not every contributor works on a game from start to finish. In my experience, maybe only 5% stay on the team from start to finish, the rest just work for a period of time and then they move on. $1000 is plainly prohibitive. That's all I'm saying.
Unity and Epic have played a new card. A challenge has been laid on the table. What will GG do with it? Will GG up the ante? Call? or fold? Doesn't sound like they plan to fold so I'm curious to see if they up the ante or call the draw.
#163
creators.xna.com/en-US/partners
The free Torque X is apparently rewritten in C#.
It costs about $100.00 a year for an XNA-CC membership. Then it's about $50.00 a year for an Xbox Live Gold membership to be able to download the game from the PC to the Xbox360. But you can build your game on the PC then deploy it over the internet to the Xbox360 using the Torque X 3D free-bee for playing. I've tried it and it works. It sounds like getting a finished game out to market for Xbox users is a part of the gig also.
It seems to me that free is a relative term.
So that's what I'm working with.
G'day
11/16/2009 (1:24 am)
OK can you do this?
XNA Creators Club Online Premium Members can download Torque X for free.
Torque X 2D / 3D for Games Studio 3.0
creators.xna.com/en-US/partners
The free Torque X is apparently rewritten in C#.
It costs about $100.00 a year for an XNA-CC membership. Then it's about $50.00 a year for an Xbox Live Gold membership to be able to download the game from the PC to the Xbox360. But you can build your game on the PC then deploy it over the internet to the Xbox360 using the Torque X 3D free-bee for playing. I've tried it and it works. It sounds like getting a finished game out to market for Xbox users is a part of the gig also.
It seems to me that free is a relative term.
So that's what I'm working with.
G'day
#164
11/16/2009 (2:03 am)
@Scott R Yes, the XNA deal is a good one, but... there's 30% royalty to Microsoft if you want to sell your game (sounds a little like the UDK offer). Granted, you get a lot from Microsoft for your 30% though. So, the game engine may be free but you still part with 30% of your profit (and no $5000 freebie). Bottom line, nothing is free really. You also don't need to hand over a a lot of money for something good either. I've been playing Torchlight (which uses the open-source Ogre graphics engine) and I'm still amazed at what they did (okay, the developers do have a Diablo pedigree, but still...).
#165
@Paul, yea OGRE is pretty awesome, and best part it's open source and free.
11/16/2009 (3:29 am)
I'd pay GG royalties right off the top to have access to an engine that I could afford, that may just be me though. Then have the ability to upgrade to a non-royalty professional license.@Paul, yea OGRE is pretty awesome, and best part it's open source and free.
#166
- What some of us question at times, is the integrity of the business tactics(even though it's not really our place to judge). I think Sean made some decent points, perhaps just not worded kindly enough to generate a direct & polite conversation over the topic.
- I have only recently learned that I need to walk around conversations politely before I can make my plea. Hence: 200 words for what could be said in 30. ..yeah, I've always known that is asinine.
- I do understand peoples' position on not liking abrupt POVs as their tendency for reaction is to react to the person's tone and not directly the situation/question being proposed. I do find that silly, but then again, I am a very different type of person.
I am very glad to hear that T3D will remain GG's focus. I was worried for a minute that T2D would take the role of flagship after the UDK news. Thanks for reading.
P.S. I know this is overly thinking the situation, but I would like to add my thoughts. -- If a person would use T3D to make any money, that they pay for that ability to the tier of their usage.
Examples:
Hobbyists, tinker'ers, (no money ever made from T3D) = lowest point/(cost) of entry
contractors/freelance artists (money made from T3D use)= a higher price with limitation on licensing to 'video game development only'
video games and beyond[artists and coders](money from other usage than game creation) = pro package $1k and current license
It's raw, but it sounds fair to me.
11/16/2009 (5:52 am)
Brett, I don't think Sean H.'s last post was hostile(I can't judge his other posts right now)...I think he's just being forward and a realist(honest and blunt). - What some of us question at times, is the integrity of the business tactics(even though it's not really our place to judge). I think Sean made some decent points, perhaps just not worded kindly enough to generate a direct & polite conversation over the topic.
- I have only recently learned that I need to walk around conversations politely before I can make my plea. Hence: 200 words for what could be said in 30. ..yeah, I've always known that is asinine.
- I do understand peoples' position on not liking abrupt POVs as their tendency for reaction is to react to the person's tone and not directly the situation/question being proposed. I do find that silly, but then again, I am a very different type of person.
I am very glad to hear that T3D will remain GG's focus. I was worried for a minute that T2D would take the role of flagship after the UDK news. Thanks for reading.
P.S. I know this is overly thinking the situation, but I would like to add my thoughts. -- If a person would use T3D to make any money, that they pay for that ability to the tier of their usage.
Examples:
Hobbyists, tinker'ers, (no money ever made from T3D) = lowest point/(cost) of entry
contractors/freelance artists (money made from T3D use)= a higher price with limitation on licensing to 'video game development only'
video games and beyond[artists and coders](money from other usage than game creation) = pro package $1k and current license
It's raw, but it sounds fair to me.
#167
11/16/2009 (7:13 am)
I think that the current $1000 price tag is fine. But I don't agree with the 1 license 1 person. I think that a team should only need one copy if they are on the indie license.
#168
In my experience, video documentation has advantages, but also has SIGNIFICANT DISADVANTAGES and I would be quite upset if the very well done new text/illustration documentation were left to grow outdated in favor of video documentation.
Having both would be great, but given a choice between one or the other, I'd choose quality text documentation any day.
I find video documentation to be superior for INITIAL learning, the period of becoming acquainted with a complex set of tools and absorbing how they function and following along with how to use them. I've never been to one, but I'd expect that GG's "boot camps" served the same learning niche, with the EXTRA added advantage of being able to actually have an exchange of questions and answers on occasion.
However, I find video documentation to be generally deficient as a REFERENCE documentation, that thing you need when you're in the thick of working with your tools and discover you've forgotten something or you need to understand not just how to use a tool but (1) discover the full set of possibilities that are there [for inspiration, to choose the most appropriate setting, etc.], (2) search across documentation for keywords and discover all the places a particular idea [object, simulation class, or what have you] appear to touch and interrelate [a kind of search you sometimes NEED in order to debug, or just discover why your implementation of something hasn't manifested completely], or (3) just be reminded of something you'd forgotten [do you REALLY want to go through the whole 30 minute video just to find that bit, which you remembered as almost halfway in, but actually was at 20:23-21:52, and could be found in a simple keyword search of text docs?].
Finally, though, though, I come to this -- the best argument to have BOTH: video and text documentation accommodate DIFFERENT learning styles. Why cater to just one?
Oh, and it MUST be said: thanks and hats off to GG for actually THINKING ALOUD through these issues in the open, considerately and carefully. That's a breath of fresh air...
11/16/2009 (8:08 am)
Just to weigh in briefly on a tangent that got started: video documentation.In my experience, video documentation has advantages, but also has SIGNIFICANT DISADVANTAGES and I would be quite upset if the very well done new text/illustration documentation were left to grow outdated in favor of video documentation.
Having both would be great, but given a choice between one or the other, I'd choose quality text documentation any day.
I find video documentation to be superior for INITIAL learning, the period of becoming acquainted with a complex set of tools and absorbing how they function and following along with how to use them. I've never been to one, but I'd expect that GG's "boot camps" served the same learning niche, with the EXTRA added advantage of being able to actually have an exchange of questions and answers on occasion.
However, I find video documentation to be generally deficient as a REFERENCE documentation, that thing you need when you're in the thick of working with your tools and discover you've forgotten something or you need to understand not just how to use a tool but (1) discover the full set of possibilities that are there [for inspiration, to choose the most appropriate setting, etc.], (2) search across documentation for keywords and discover all the places a particular idea [object, simulation class, or what have you] appear to touch and interrelate [a kind of search you sometimes NEED in order to debug, or just discover why your implementation of something hasn't manifested completely], or (3) just be reminded of something you'd forgotten [do you REALLY want to go through the whole 30 minute video just to find that bit, which you remembered as almost halfway in, but actually was at 20:23-21:52, and could be found in a simple keyword search of text docs?].
Finally, though, though, I come to this -- the best argument to have BOTH: video and text documentation accommodate DIFFERENT learning styles. Why cater to just one?
Oh, and it MUST be said: thanks and hats off to GG for actually THINKING ALOUD through these issues in the open, considerately and carefully. That's a breath of fresh air...
#169
Exactly what I was thinking about!
11/16/2009 (8:15 am)
Quote:1) An entry level/free alternative for long term use. A lot of us need/want something to mess around with for quite a while, then spend the 1K when we're "sure" we can produce something of value. Or at least have something that a team of artists can use regularly to test out models, textures, etc., without having to spend 1K per seat/user to do so.
Exactly what I was thinking about!
#170
But Epic gets 25% as a technology royalty (similar to id's 5% on id Tech 4, which was 10% previously, I believe). Then the distributor/publisher gets their cut. Finally your studio gets their cut.
11/16/2009 (10:18 am)
Quote: there's 30% royalty to Microsoft if you want to sell your game (sounds a little like the UDK offer).Just thought I would note that the key difference in the royalty rate is that Microsoft is the distributor and taking a large chunk off the top for distribution is not unheard of; in fact, 30% can often be rather low in comparison to what many will take.
But Epic gets 25% as a technology royalty (similar to id's 5% on id Tech 4, which was 10% previously, I believe). Then the distributor/publisher gets their cut. Finally your studio gets their cut.
#171
The understanding of the inventory is not the point. Inventory means more than just a variable, and after that it gets necessarily more complicated than that. There might be less complex ones for what T3D has, but inventory is like saying "MMO". There's a lot of custom behind it, depending on what you're doing with your game...
That's just a GUI with HTML links and the "Accept" and "Cancel" buttons thrown in. If you want more chat functionality than that, it either doesn't exist in any engine out of the box, or you need to roll your own. It took me 5 years to make Interrogative, and I'm sure that even Bioware's own solution that is used in Mass Effect and SW:TOR was not done up in a matter of a week or two.
11/16/2009 (11:26 am)
@Alaric Karczag:Quote:*easy to understand invintory
The understanding of the inventory is not the point. Inventory means more than just a variable, and after that it gets necessarily more complicated than that. There might be less complex ones for what T3D has, but inventory is like saying "MMO". There's a lot of custom behind it, depending on what you're doing with your game...
Quote:*in game chatting with NPC's
That's just a GUI with HTML links and the "Accept" and "Cancel" buttons thrown in. If you want more chat functionality than that, it either doesn't exist in any engine out of the box, or you need to roll your own. It took me 5 years to make Interrogative, and I'm sure that even Bioware's own solution that is used in Mass Effect and SW:TOR was not done up in a matter of a week or two.
#172
Admittedly I could be wrong.. but my understanding is the 25% is calculated after the distributor etc takes their cut, kinda like.. a tax shelter in a way. In other words.. if you make $100,000.00, and the distributor took 30 percent, the 25% would be based on $70,000.00. Again, I could be wrong.
-----------------------------
What should GG do? To me, the absolute most important thing that needs to be done is continued work on T3D's tools/editors. It remains one of the biggest complaints across the net when people bring up Torque. While I think Mich and his indentured servants are making good progress on Docs, the tools still come across as lacking and that they were being designed by programmers. Now I've said for years.. Programmers should be treated humanely. They deserve all the love and respect one can give them as you lock them in a room to keep them away from an decisions that have to do with design or any other tool built primarily for artists. And while I obviously joke, there is truth with this as well.
As far as the price/version discussion.. I think sooner or later your going to have to do a, and I cant believe I'm saying this.. do a feature limited version. I don't see how you can avoid this without loosing alot of revenue. My suggestions at a rough break down would look like this:
- T3D Full - Full featured/full source/with 1 floating artist seat = $1000.00
- T3D - No source/No advanced lighting/(take your pick of other features to be removed) - $99.00
- TGE - FREE
Anyway.. just my thoughts.
11/16/2009 (12:09 pm)
David said:Quote:But Epic gets 25% as a technology royalty (similar to id's 5% on id Tech 4, which was 10% previously, I believe). Then the distributor/publisher gets their cut. Finally your studio gets their cut.
Admittedly I could be wrong.. but my understanding is the 25% is calculated after the distributor etc takes their cut, kinda like.. a tax shelter in a way. In other words.. if you make $100,000.00, and the distributor took 30 percent, the 25% would be based on $70,000.00. Again, I could be wrong.
-----------------------------
What should GG do? To me, the absolute most important thing that needs to be done is continued work on T3D's tools/editors. It remains one of the biggest complaints across the net when people bring up Torque. While I think Mich and his indentured servants are making good progress on Docs, the tools still come across as lacking and that they were being designed by programmers. Now I've said for years.. Programmers should be treated humanely. They deserve all the love and respect one can give them as you lock them in a room to keep them away from an decisions that have to do with design or any other tool built primarily for artists. And while I obviously joke, there is truth with this as well.
As far as the price/version discussion.. I think sooner or later your going to have to do a, and I cant believe I'm saying this.. do a feature limited version. I don't see how you can avoid this without loosing alot of revenue. My suggestions at a rough break down would look like this:
- T3D Full - Full featured/full source/with 1 floating artist seat = $1000.00
- T3D - No source/No advanced lighting/(take your pick of other features to be removed) - $99.00
- TGE - FREE
Anyway.. just my thoughts.
#173
Some people here describes 25% as a good deal, and David is explaining why its not, as Epic does not distribute.
11/16/2009 (1:17 pm)
Andrew, I dont think the understanding of "royalty" works as you describe, but anyway, thats not the point, really.Some people here describes 25% as a good deal, and David is explaining why its not, as Epic does not distribute.
#174
30% to a distributor is fine (wouldn't sign up with Apple if I felt that was wrong), so the XBLA deal is nice then. But UDK doesn't include a distribution mechanism, download server hosting, social networking or any other hosted services. It's up to you to get payment+publishing one way or another.
The tools do indeed need a HCI expert to look at them. Yes, even the GUI tool ;)
I would suggest looking at CEGUI and scaleform, find something in between, then that human/computer interaction expert would have an easy time. OK, that's a heavy job. Rank it low on the list, but put general interface improvements higher (ask an artist what they prefer).
Perhaps a thread asking for feedback should be posted in the artist forums?
11/16/2009 (1:22 pm)
@Andrew: I also read it as (earnings - distributor cut) - $5000 * 0.75.30% to a distributor is fine (wouldn't sign up with Apple if I felt that was wrong), so the XBLA deal is nice then. But UDK doesn't include a distribution mechanism, download server hosting, social networking or any other hosted services. It's up to you to get payment+publishing one way or another.
The tools do indeed need a HCI expert to look at them. Yes, even the GUI tool ;)
I would suggest looking at CEGUI and scaleform, find something in between, then that human/computer interaction expert would have an easy time. OK, that's a heavy job. Rank it low on the list, but put general interface improvements higher (ask an artist what they prefer).
Perhaps a thread asking for feedback should be posted in the artist forums?
#175
Where the UDK seriously excels is that you can take it, strip out the entire UTGame package, and create a brand new game, from scratch, for nothing. It costs you nothing to get your idea rolling and get it in a state where, hey, I might be able to sell this. There is no commitment to get my game up and going. Having played with it heavily myself for the last week, there is very little you can't do with the UDK given the time and understanding of UnrealScript and how the engine works.
I think Torque has a place in the industry, but I think it needs to go back to it's roots: Very cheap engine purchase, with source code. Make it accessible to the regular joe that's working and has a family, because that's who is creating indie games these days. 1000 dollars may not sound like much, but even as a well paid enterprise developer, I would be hard pressed to get my wife to let me spend 1000 dollars on a 3D engine. With the UDK, that's not a discussion I need to have.
11/16/2009 (1:30 pm)
I hate to say this, but I think where Torque is going to have an issue is that 1000 dollar price point for the full engine. That's simply beyond the cost of what the average indie, just breaking in to 3D, is going to have sitting around.Where the UDK seriously excels is that you can take it, strip out the entire UTGame package, and create a brand new game, from scratch, for nothing. It costs you nothing to get your idea rolling and get it in a state where, hey, I might be able to sell this. There is no commitment to get my game up and going. Having played with it heavily myself for the last week, there is very little you can't do with the UDK given the time and understanding of UnrealScript and how the engine works.
I think Torque has a place in the industry, but I think it needs to go back to it's roots: Very cheap engine purchase, with source code. Make it accessible to the regular joe that's working and has a family, because that's who is creating indie games these days. 1000 dollars may not sound like much, but even as a well paid enterprise developer, I would be hard pressed to get my wife to let me spend 1000 dollars on a 3D engine. With the UDK, that's not a discussion I need to have.
#176
Thank you! You clearly made a point that I tried to get across in a previous post. That point is this...
I think most people/teams creating indie games are either
1) people who already have a primary job, maybe married and have a wife to include in spending decisions, have kids and the monetary responsibilites included with that
2)young people, maybe in school with a PT job
Niether one of these groups has extra money just laying around for game engines, 3D modeling packages, 3rd party engine tools, etc.
UDK is handing these groups a AAA game engine with editor, tons of tools (look at SpeedTree for example), lots of examples and tutorials out there from modders (look at all of the tutorials that have already hit YouTube since the announcment), etc for NO up-front cost.
These groups can get their game off of the ground and then pay on the backend once they complete something of value and decide to release it commercially. People mention the 25% royalty being high..well 25% of money you have already made is a lot easier to swallow than $1000 you don't have.
I truly hope GG does release a free, non crippled, no source version. I would be willing to try it. Until then I will stick with learning the UDK.
Marcus
11/16/2009 (2:46 pm)
Matt,Thank you! You clearly made a point that I tried to get across in a previous post. That point is this...
I think most people/teams creating indie games are either
1) people who already have a primary job, maybe married and have a wife to include in spending decisions, have kids and the monetary responsibilites included with that
2)young people, maybe in school with a PT job
Niether one of these groups has extra money just laying around for game engines, 3D modeling packages, 3rd party engine tools, etc.
UDK is handing these groups a AAA game engine with editor, tons of tools (look at SpeedTree for example), lots of examples and tutorials out there from modders (look at all of the tutorials that have already hit YouTube since the announcment), etc for NO up-front cost.
These groups can get their game off of the ground and then pay on the backend once they complete something of value and decide to release it commercially. People mention the 25% royalty being high..well 25% of money you have already made is a lot easier to swallow than $1000 you don't have.
I truly hope GG does release a free, non crippled, no source version. I would be willing to try it. Until then I will stick with learning the UDK.
Marcus
#177
About digital distribution, UDK is supposed to get Steam access will be awesome.
UDK also performs MUCH better on my system than Torque3D (and looks much better too). UDK has added all of the features of the latest build from the full version of Unreal. The global illumination looks awesome.
While I can understand why people would complain about the 25% royalty, for those of us who will never be able to implement AI from scratch, much of the work is done.
Your point #3 about being able to test out Epic's documents and support is absurd. Full engine licensees get MUCH more support and a higher level of access to UDN. Brett you obviously have made no real effort to understand what is going on here.
UNREAL DOES HAVE GLOBAL ILLUMINATION.
http://www.udk.com/features-lighting.html
DID YOU EVEN LOOK AT THE FEATURES?
http://www.udk.com/features.html
YOU PRESENT EVERYTHING ABOVE AS A FACT ABOUT UDK WHEN IN FACT YOU OBVIOUSLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT UDK IS.
I love the part when you say, this is NOT UNREAL 3? Really? How do you figure? So if Torque eventually offers a non source code version of Torque3D it is no longer Torque3D? IT IS UNREAL 3. IT IS THE LATEST BUILD.
11/16/2009 (2:47 pm)
I recently switched from Torque3D to UDK and I must say I am blown away. The Mastering Unreal Technology books from 3DBuzz combined with the 3DBuzz VTMs make learning Unreal easy. About digital distribution, UDK is supposed to get Steam access will be awesome.
UDK also performs MUCH better on my system than Torque3D (and looks much better too). UDK has added all of the features of the latest build from the full version of Unreal. The global illumination looks awesome.
While I can understand why people would complain about the 25% royalty, for those of us who will never be able to implement AI from scratch, much of the work is done.
Your point #3 about being able to test out Epic's documents and support is absurd. Full engine licensees get MUCH more support and a higher level of access to UDN. Brett you obviously have made no real effort to understand what is going on here.
UNREAL DOES HAVE GLOBAL ILLUMINATION.
http://www.udk.com/features-lighting.html
DID YOU EVEN LOOK AT THE FEATURES?
http://www.udk.com/features.html
YOU PRESENT EVERYTHING ABOVE AS A FACT ABOUT UDK WHEN IN FACT YOU OBVIOUSLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT UDK IS.
I love the part when you say, this is NOT UNREAL 3? Really? How do you figure? So if Torque eventually offers a non source code version of Torque3D it is no longer Torque3D? IT IS UNREAL 3. IT IS THE LATEST BUILD.
#178
I don't understand why people have to come back and defend their position on why they moved while calling people liars and typing in lots of CAPS. If you are happy move on. It is silly. This is just business, did you expect them to roll over and die?
11/16/2009 (3:34 pm)
@Black Tengu: Unless I am wrong, Global Illumination is their Lightmass product and that is still only for static shadows. They cannot do more than 1 dynamic Light per mesh or something to that effect. I believe that was what that point was about. While I don't think anyone is going to have any illusions that a VERY LONG process of static mapping lights either using Lightmass or somewhat less time consuming from what I understand in pureLight is going to be inferior to a dynamically created deferred rendering Shading engine, it is still a valid point.I don't understand why people have to come back and defend their position on why they moved while calling people liars and typing in lots of CAPS. If you are happy move on. It is silly. This is just business, did you expect them to roll over and die?
#179
// iirc comment was removed due to being wrong :P
11/16/2009 (3:38 pm)
...what marketing tactics do you know of that do not twist wordings and perceptions ? ..it's the basis of marketing 101. // iirc comment was removed due to being wrong :P
#180
11/16/2009 (3:42 pm)
Uhh, Brett was not a marketing major.
Torque 3D Owner Alaric Karczag
Stayed with it because I OWNED it.
I hate programming.
I use Blender3D even tho I'm fluent in 3DS Max. Thanks Joseph Greenwalt!
and i have the Houdini exporter, "blegh" too much to do basic modeling. Great for high end stuff tho.
Back in the day we had tribes.
so when we had questions about how to do somethings, we could look at tribes.
TGEA changed the code... no more demo/game code to look at.
I had to buy the flight game code, to figure out how to model/setup flying vehicles.
Had to wait for the racing port to TGEA for proper vehicle code changes.
THERE is NOT a lot that's appealing with T3D, it looks pretty, but as a non-programmer Torque doesn't appeal or help.
*edit* EXCEPT the in game terrain editing! that's awsome!
What can you do?
get all the TGE code working: Shoreline textures, footprints (finially 1.8.2), Waterblocks, AI...etc.
Get the main player animations better, the stock stronghold character animations LOOK like they've been done by a programmer.
for the love of all; Game Mechanics Kit is the ONLY way I have for making triggers, in game cut sceans, physics items, a DOOR that works, SWITCHES, (still trying to figure out the invintory system). GMK should have been PART of Torque.
looking at the past: the move from TGE to TGEA just got to a useable point for me (after ALSO buying FlightGameExample, Game Mechanics Kit, the Yak pack) and now they are cutting support? Great
Want an ARTIST to be attracted to TGEA?
***Make a Demo level with each item/data block active as an Example***
ie:
Vehicle examples:
*a mountable car
*a mountable flying vehicle
*motorcycle?
*vehicle with turrets?
AI examples:
*a turret, that shoots at me, possibly mountable
*AI that does more than run in circles,
*in game chatting with NPC's
world scripts:
*A door that WORKS
*a window that breaks, breakable items
*trasparent texture on a BSP DTS + Polysoup
*easy to understand invintory
*Working WATERBLOCK
*Shoreline textures from TGE
I can learn by seeing it in action, will know how to build or script off the demo, and can buy a programmer to expand the engine if i need.
GarageGames needs to go back to it's roots and make a game out of its own tech, if nothing else, just to show others how to do it.