The New Magic Word
by Brett Seyler · 11/12/2009 (4:02 pm) · 289 comments
Last week, Epic Games made a pretty big splash announcing the "UDK" or Unreal Development Kit. UDK is based on the *very expensive* Unreal Engine 3, the most dominant game engine in the big budget console games space. There's been a lot of hyperbolic talk about how this is an "end of days" development for Torque and our friendly Copenhagen competitors, Unity. I want to take a while here to talk about what I think this means for Torque and where we fit in the competitive landscape.When the announcement showed up, of course I immediately wanted to dig in and find out what was up. I took some time and looked at the license on the UDK site. Many people here downloaded the UDK to play around with it and see what was what. It turns out that the UDK is basically an up to date set of editors for Unreal Engine 3. There's no source code provided. Instead, as with modding, you can do scripting with Epic's Unrealscript. You can package your project for Windows only. There are docs online, but otherwise no dedicated support. So let's be clear. This is NOT Unreal Engine 3. That would kill a huge source of revenue (supported, source code licensing for PC and consoles) for Epic. It *is* a well-tested, rich set of editors for making stuff based on UE3 games or projects.
What's the license like for this? Well, Epic is slapping up the word FREE everywhere and who doesn't love something for FREE right? It's a magic word. The UDK website grants you (for free) a license to make non-commercial works. If you want to make money, or benefit indirectly somehow from using the UDK (think making a demo to advertise or sell something else or a company who wants to train employees with a simulation), you have to pay. The terms of making something commercial with the UDK are actually a bit murky because Epic does not post the license on their site or allow you to purchase a commercial license on thier site. Instead, they give you an email address to hit up and describe the terms of the license structure.
Option A: You benefit (somehow) from using and distributing UDK projects, but there's no revenue. You can pay $2500 / seat annually for this use of the UDK.
Option B: You sell, advertise on, or somehow directly or indirectly, generate revenue from a project made with UDK. You pay $99 up front and you give up 25% of all revenues exceeding $5000 on that project.
Pretty straightforward options! It would be nice to see the license, but assuming it's reasonable, sounds like a pretty fair deal. So what's the catch? How does Epic make money from this? They don't. Not really. This is a loss leader and an evangelism play and it really doesn't cost them much of anything to do. For years you've been able to spend $60 on Unreal Tournament, Gears of War, or other Unreal titles and use the provided editors to modify the game. You can do a lot with mods and people have created really cool stuff. Epic never monetized this practice before. Instead, they used it as a way to create longer tail sales for their games and to recruit new talent from the modder community. By offering the "UDK," Epic is taking the next step by letting people distribute Unreal mods without requiring ownership of the modded Unreal game. In addition to formalizing what they've always done with the mod communities built around Unreal, Epic is likely to heavily monetize the inevitable step from UDK --> UE3. This is no small step and it will cost small teams as much as Epic can wring out of them, in addition to the 25% royalties they are already on the hook for. My guess is that it will be case by case, but it's guaranteed that most teams will run into barriers not having access to the engine source, just as they do with other binary-only engines.
I'm not going to dismiss this move by Epic. It matters. Here's why...
#1: It's Epic (no pun intended). They are an absolute behemoth in the games industry. They've absolutely demolished all competitors in the AAA console engine space for the last 5 years, essentially since EA acquired Criterion, makers of Renderware, and stopped licensing it to 3rd parties. They have an established business selling very expensive (think 6-7 figures, depending on the royalty rate) licenses for big budget console games and now, they've decided they want indies, amateurs, and hobbyists to use their product too. That's a pretty decent market disturbance.
#2: It's validation. When I wrote about the hyper-competitive, well-served big budget AAA space while discussing the pricing and licensing of Torque 3D back in January, I noted that the AAA middleware market hasn't grown much in the last decade and it continues to be a pretty fixed size market. At the same time, the space Torque and Unity occupy (better accessibility and opportunity via lower licensing costs and more attractive platforms) has grown tremendously. This community here grows by hundreds of users every week. A larger portion of the games industry as a whole is moving away from stagnant AAA console games and targeting super-fast growing platforms like the iPhone, Facebook, and yes, even just regular PC online games. Clearly Epic must see something they like in these markets. They missed the boat on the Wii and they are probably struggling to maintain (let alone grow) revenues in the AAA console space. I'm not sure if this will be a long-lasting commitment on Epic's part, or simply a way to maximize the value of their current tech while the new stuff (UE4) is what they're going to start pushing to high-end clients, right around the corner. Regardless, validation is nice.
#3: Now everyone can see behind the "AAA" curtain. We've been telling you for years that Torque is top-notch technology. We've said "it's documented up to, and in many cases well beyond the industry standard." Without being able to look at engines like Unreal, that's been a hard claim for you guys to verify. Now you can. Have a look at UDK. Look at the tools. Look at the docs. Test out the support. We think you'll find that Torque 3D stacks up very well in comparison, and all without the licensing burden of big royalties or high-cost access to source. Putting aside source though, it's worth answering the question:
What does Torque currently do better than Unreal?
Rendering - Torque is the first affordable engine with a deferred renderer. You have real-time dynamic lighting and shadows. You can have thousands of dynamic point lights in a scene at almost no hit to performance. You can't do this in Unreal. Torque's Light Pre-pass rendering is the standard for the current era of hardware. CryEngine uses it as do many of the best looking games on the market.

Contrast this with Unreal, which uses a years old forward renderer that does not allow for global dynamic lighting or shadows. In fact, UE3 does not support more than one dynamic light casting shadows on the same object. It will switch shadows automatically to the nearest light. A directional light will allways switch off any light's shadows. With Unreal, all global illumination is baked. Everything you can do in Unreal, you can do with pureLIGHT in Torque 3D, but with Torque, you can combine dynamic global lighting and shadows with beautfully baked static lightmaps that give you realtime iterative results, not an hours long, black box baking process. Looking ahead, we'll probably be the first affordable engine with DX11 support, and I doubt you're going to see that from Unreal until UE4, likely a couple years away from public licensing, at least.
Terrain (editing AND fidelity) - Definitely test out the UDK terrain editors next to Torque 3D's. The UDK terrain tools are several generations behind us. In Torque 3D, you get much nicer terrain fidelity as well. It takes the right artwork to show this (which you'll see with Pacific Demo here in a few weeks), but the advantage for Torque is clear.

Networking - Out of the box, Torque 3D will do things that you'll never get UDK to do without source code access and a LOT of work. It's as simple as that.
Platform support - Capable deployment to OSX machines is increasing a very important component to success for small teams. Torque 3D offers a path to every major platform out there (Windows, Mac, Web, Wii, Xbox 360, iPhone, with PS3 and PSP in the works).

Special purpose tools. - The road and river tools are just the beginning, but there's a lot more coming in 1.1 and 1.2 that you haven't seen before and which you definitely won't find in UDK.Community resources, add-ons, and extensions. This is such a talent-rich and generous community. We do our very best not to take your contributions for granted. Rather, a major focus, particularly on this website in the next year, will be adding features that make the surfacing, sharing, and vetting of community resources and project much easier and much more powerful. There's really a lot we can do here and you're going to see constant improvement.
Now, UDK has some things not currently in Torque in it's favor as well. Nice features like nav meshes for AI, improved animation tools, etc. are all on our roadmap, but not yet in Torque 3D, so we've still got plenty of work ahead of us to keep up and stay competitive.
We want to take Torque much further, allowing developers to unlock opportunities on the best emerging platforms. That's going to take continued work and investment in the product by us, but we run a pretty lean operation, we reinvest nearly every dollar you spend with us back into product development, and we are moving *super* fast.
'FREE' might just be the new SSAO
We realize that staying ahead of the curve on technology is just part of the equation. The licensing model we choose is important and we're paying attention to all this FREE stuff as much as the rest of you. We want to offer something at a very accessible price, or perhaps for FREE as a good entry to learning and using Torque 3D. Currently, our free option is a demo, limited by the number of objects you can place in your scene. This obviously isn't useful to create an entire game, but it does give you a good feel for what Torque 3D's tool set can do, given that it's not feature limited in any way other than not including the source code.
By comparison, UDK also gives you everything for free, no features limited by the free version other than the source code, but you cannot use it to make anything commercial without payment. The cost, at minimum, is $99 + 25% of your revenues (after $5k total). Unity strips a great deal of their features out of their free version. These can drastically handicap development for some teams, but there's no reason why you couldn't finish some games with it either. The license is liberal, so it's a good stepping stone to make your first game, solo, if you're willing to live with some of the feature limitations.

So where does Torque 3D fit in all of this? Our "Professional" version, which includes source code, access to beta builds, private forums, etc is just $1000 / seat. We don't currently have an option between this and our free demo, but we want one. I think the recent developments by Unity and Epic and all the new developers trying their hand at 3D games warrants a low-priced option for Torque 3D, as well.
At the end of September, when we released Torque 3D 1.0, I included a poll contemplating an full-featured, binary-only version of Torque 3D to go for $500 / seat. Though the results were overwhelmingly in favor of this option, I think we can do better. In the past, I've been really happy with the feedback you've given us making decisions like this, so I want to enlist your help again.
What should we do?
What would you be happy with?
What do you think would be best for the community the future of the product?
Do we want a more elite, experienced community of programmers here?
Do we want to create a more balanced mix of great artists too?
I have my instincts on these questions, and we've discussed them a great deal internally, but I've always come back to this community as one of the big reasons to choose Torque for a new developer. It's one of kind and I want to keep it together and help it grow as much as possible. That won't happen if we don't have a competitive offering in Torque. This means we need enough income to feed the developers and keep the product blazing ahead full speed. But at the same time, if every new beginner cuts their teeth on UDK or Unity because they have viable free option and Torque doesn't, well, I don't like the position that puts us in for the long run either.
So please, let us know what you think! I promise I'll listen and weigh all feedback carefully. I hope to make a decision on this by the end of the month, so let fly with the suggestions and opinions. It's all welcome.
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#242
As an indie, i would say that the UDK represents excellent value. As mentioned, you only have to pay royalties after $5k. If i don't earn i don't pay, simple as that. Besides, when costing, you should already have figured that in, so its not really a big issue. If you didn't calculate properly and end up making a loss per sale (yeah, possible, considering its revenue)... then... i can only say you suck :P
But does that mean i'm going to drop T3D ? Of course not ! (no, not because i paid 1k for it... ok maybe partly cos i paid 1k for it :P). As a programmer, a very noobish and lazy one granted, but still a programmer, I understand how important it is to have source code access. The ability to tune certain portions and add certain features which ONLY YOU might require is invaluable in complex projects.
Torque definitely has has the potential to look as nice (I hesitate to say nicer...) with some tweaking and some nice art assets. As mentioned, the special purpose tools are definitely cool and terrain and lighting are some plus points. I definitely hope that performance can be improved. Even planning for future hardware, not everyone's gona have top end video cards. My home laptop runs on an old X1400 ! I can definitely play Left 4 Dead fine, but T3D will crawl.
As for making T3D cheaper, that would be a good call. $500 would be a good price in my opinion. Releasing TGE is cool, but lets be relistic, releasing TGEA for free might end up cannibalizing T3D. UDK can be released free, why can't T3D blah blah. Well, as many have mentioned, UDK has this wonderful $500k full copy to back them up. The major studios who have already been hooked are in effect paying to maintain YOUR copy, unless you start release a game. Even then, unless you game makes it biiiiiiig, you would hardly contribute to a single programmers salary for a month. So to be fair, comparing prices would neither be a fair nor logical comparison. (Until/unless a whole bunch of people sudden;y appear and claim to have paid $500k to license Torque tech...)
Just my $0.02. Hope i din piss anyone off :P
11/18/2009 (3:40 am)
First off, let me say that i love the UDK and intend to put in time to learn it. I can potentially cut my development time by huge amounts. The biggest lure here is that it has most of the tools which T3D left to 3rd party developers already integrated in.As an indie, i would say that the UDK represents excellent value. As mentioned, you only have to pay royalties after $5k. If i don't earn i don't pay, simple as that. Besides, when costing, you should already have figured that in, so its not really a big issue. If you didn't calculate properly and end up making a loss per sale (yeah, possible, considering its revenue)... then... i can only say you suck :P
But does that mean i'm going to drop T3D ? Of course not ! (no, not because i paid 1k for it... ok maybe partly cos i paid 1k for it :P). As a programmer, a very noobish and lazy one granted, but still a programmer, I understand how important it is to have source code access. The ability to tune certain portions and add certain features which ONLY YOU might require is invaluable in complex projects.
Torque definitely has has the potential to look as nice (I hesitate to say nicer...) with some tweaking and some nice art assets. As mentioned, the special purpose tools are definitely cool and terrain and lighting are some plus points. I definitely hope that performance can be improved. Even planning for future hardware, not everyone's gona have top end video cards. My home laptop runs on an old X1400 ! I can definitely play Left 4 Dead fine, but T3D will crawl.
As for making T3D cheaper, that would be a good call. $500 would be a good price in my opinion. Releasing TGE is cool, but lets be relistic, releasing TGEA for free might end up cannibalizing T3D. UDK can be released free, why can't T3D blah blah. Well, as many have mentioned, UDK has this wonderful $500k full copy to back them up. The major studios who have already been hooked are in effect paying to maintain YOUR copy, unless you start release a game. Even then, unless you game makes it biiiiiiig, you would hardly contribute to a single programmers salary for a month. So to be fair, comparing prices would neither be a fair nor logical comparison. (Until/unless a whole bunch of people sudden;y appear and claim to have paid $500k to license Torque tech...)
Just my $0.02. Hope i din piss anyone off :P
#243
11/18/2009 (3:44 am)
damn double post... sorry, but somehow i can only go to page 12... from the page list... had to enter page 13 manually in the url to see this... is there a cap or bug or something ? luckily i noticed the increase in post count.
#244
If you don't think that you can make at least $100k from making and selling a game, let alone are worried about breaking that magical $5k mark, then you're probably in the wrong business.
11/18/2009 (4:32 am)
"First, you have to make $5000 before it even applies."If you don't think that you can make at least $100k from making and selling a game, let alone are worried about breaking that magical $5k mark, then you're probably in the wrong business.
#245
Not one to flame.. but come on. Get real people. If we wanted to target professional studios we would add a couple of zeros onto the end of that figure.
11/18/2009 (4:34 am)
Quote:
I feel your current price point is targetted towards professional studios.
Not one to flame.. but come on. Get real people. If we wanted to target professional studios we would add a couple of zeros onto the end of that figure.
#246
Hey Trent, be sure to check out the RTS Prototype Tutorial. It covers this topic pretty well for you and it is script-only (you can totally do it with just the demo).
Enjoy =)
11/18/2009 (5:22 am)
Quote:As for generic, well I'm looking to make games that make use of the mouse. So what I really need is a free cursor and the ability to shoot rays off it and get a collision list back.
Hey Trent, be sure to check out the RTS Prototype Tutorial. It covers this topic pretty well for you and it is script-only (you can totally do it with just the demo).
Enjoy =)
#247
In its current state i would never begin to build a game with T3D.
In the meantime i will work with TGE. Alternatively with the upcoming T2D.
UDK is not a option for me because i dont have 3ds max, maya or xsi to use their plugin ActorX. To be honest, Unity is the hottest candidate.
The problem of GG is the following: T3D is not complete, the docs are at the beginning and on the other side Unity Indie and UDK are free.
Now, what should GG (in my opinion) do?
- decrease the price of T3D Pro a little bit (losing a lot of user can be a broken neck for GG... here are very talented people)
- give artists a incentive
(the fewest artists would pay 500 USD for the Artist Version only to check their models or to build some levels)
Yes, i know. Epic and Unity made a hard time for GG. But GG has to make painful decisions. Otherwise they will lose a lot of talented people.
11/18/2009 (7:01 am)
The price of T3D Pro (1000 USD) is fine if all current features and all promised features are working. But currently T3D is far from that. Very far. I guess that GG (TP) needs at least one year to finish these goals. In its current state i would never begin to build a game with T3D.
In the meantime i will work with TGE. Alternatively with the upcoming T2D.
UDK is not a option for me because i dont have 3ds max, maya or xsi to use their plugin ActorX. To be honest, Unity is the hottest candidate.
The problem of GG is the following: T3D is not complete, the docs are at the beginning and on the other side Unity Indie and UDK are free.
Now, what should GG (in my opinion) do?
- decrease the price of T3D Pro a little bit (losing a lot of user can be a broken neck for GG... here are very talented people)
- give artists a incentive
(the fewest artists would pay 500 USD for the Artist Version only to check their models or to build some levels)
Yes, i know. Epic and Unity made a hard time for GG. But GG has to make painful decisions. Otherwise they will lose a lot of talented people.
#248
Either that or you're an indie developer.
11/18/2009 (7:10 am)
Quote:If you don't think that you can make at least $100k from making and selling a game, let alone are worried about breaking that magical $5k mark, then you're probably in the wrong business.
Either that or you're an indie developer.
#249
11/18/2009 (7:18 am)
@Luke I'd be very surprised if more than a handful of Torque tech users make more than $100K in a year (or from a single game). I'd love to be wrong though.
#250
I've gotta agree with the >$100k gross (not net), and it's probably not worth making the game. You can throw together a Flash game that grosses $100k in, I'd say, about a month and a half easy. Being a "game developer" means making games, and staying in business means selling them.
Indy game developer means Tim Aste living in his car until he can get paid. It's cramming a bunch of people into a house because nobody can afford rent. Walking over a mile, carrying your stuff by hand to GDC cuz you gotta stay at the cheap hotels. You guys seem to be forgetting the "game developer" part, in favor of the "indy" which is a word that just continues to lose meaning and edge.
I think the problem is that people don't want to be "indy game developers" they want to be starving artists; bleeding the contents of their souls out onto the keyboard only to have an uncaring world wash it away in... ah you guys are better at these sob stories than I am.
11/18/2009 (12:07 pm)
$100k sounds like a lot of money until you start paying bills. Maybe other people have different ideas about being "in business" but there's these expenses, and you have to pay them...also there's people, and you have to pay them too. Then there's you...and you gotta pay you too otherwise you won't have a place to live. I've gotta agree with the >$100k gross (not net), and it's probably not worth making the game. You can throw together a Flash game that grosses $100k in, I'd say, about a month and a half easy. Being a "game developer" means making games, and staying in business means selling them.
Indy game developer means Tim Aste living in his car until he can get paid. It's cramming a bunch of people into a house because nobody can afford rent. Walking over a mile, carrying your stuff by hand to GDC cuz you gotta stay at the cheap hotels. You guys seem to be forgetting the "game developer" part, in favor of the "indy" which is a word that just continues to lose meaning and edge.
I think the problem is that people don't want to be "indy game developers" they want to be starving artists; bleeding the contents of their souls out onto the keyboard only to have an uncaring world wash it away in... ah you guys are better at these sob stories than I am.
#251
11/18/2009 (12:27 pm)
I've have one more thing to say for (some said you could not create an AAA title with torque). I think there wrong, I think its up to the studio and the developers that make things happen. Here's my proof video.aol.com/video-detail/gears-of-torque-tgea-demo/640048565 anything is possible.
#252
You would be surprised what you can and cannot make in terms of revenue as an indie. But really what it comes down to is if you want to make money you need to spend money to ensure that your game is not only the best that it can be, but that you find yourself a great publisher(s) and also market the living hell out of it the best way that you can to consumers and the media before its released. Previews generate sales not reviews.
@Marcus
The issue that alot of people see with that 25% is that its a significant chunk of change to lose for really having access to the same set of mod tools that come with UT3 and having an official blessing to release a mod that you make on the commercial market (which you could do before if you asked). So if you are very lucky and actually find a publisher that only takes 30% (which is low, many pubs will take a lot more) and after you factor in the 25% UDK takes after that, you are looking at best losing 47.5% of every dollar earned. Now lets assume its a sale weekend, so the publisher takes at bare minimum 50% for promoting your game (this is a common practice btw). Now you're losing at best 62.5% of the sales on a discounted sale price (though of course your sales are about 8x higher, so it balances out a bit). Also keep in mind if you do a serious game or a contract with UDK, its just 25% flat of the project's budget.
Now I dont know about you, but that is a lot of blood, sweat and tears to give up to two elements who do very little, nevermind the fact that you could be spending that cost on things like art, 3rd party addons, AAA sound (a huge failure of all indie projects is not getting this), marketing, promotion, programming help... well the list goes on and on with how you could utilize the resources to help make your product even better instead of gifting it away.
Don't get me wrong I think the Unreal3 engine is powerful and there's a huge reason why a lot of licensees use it in AAA space, but lets keep in mind that the engine is only a part of the equation. There are a lot of 3rd party addons that teams purchase to enhance Unreal3 (which you won't get with UDK sadly unless they make changes to UDK) and then of course there is the cost of talent to make the engine shine in the hands of talented individuals.
11/18/2009 (12:30 pm)
@PaulYou would be surprised what you can and cannot make in terms of revenue as an indie. But really what it comes down to is if you want to make money you need to spend money to ensure that your game is not only the best that it can be, but that you find yourself a great publisher(s) and also market the living hell out of it the best way that you can to consumers and the media before its released. Previews generate sales not reviews.
@Marcus
The issue that alot of people see with that 25% is that its a significant chunk of change to lose for really having access to the same set of mod tools that come with UT3 and having an official blessing to release a mod that you make on the commercial market (which you could do before if you asked). So if you are very lucky and actually find a publisher that only takes 30% (which is low, many pubs will take a lot more) and after you factor in the 25% UDK takes after that, you are looking at best losing 47.5% of every dollar earned. Now lets assume its a sale weekend, so the publisher takes at bare minimum 50% for promoting your game (this is a common practice btw). Now you're losing at best 62.5% of the sales on a discounted sale price (though of course your sales are about 8x higher, so it balances out a bit). Also keep in mind if you do a serious game or a contract with UDK, its just 25% flat of the project's budget.
Now I dont know about you, but that is a lot of blood, sweat and tears to give up to two elements who do very little, nevermind the fact that you could be spending that cost on things like art, 3rd party addons, AAA sound (a huge failure of all indie projects is not getting this), marketing, promotion, programming help... well the list goes on and on with how you could utilize the resources to help make your product even better instead of gifting it away.
Don't get me wrong I think the Unreal3 engine is powerful and there's a huge reason why a lot of licensees use it in AAA space, but lets keep in mind that the engine is only a part of the equation. There are a lot of 3rd party addons that teams purchase to enhance Unreal3 (which you won't get with UDK sadly unless they make changes to UDK) and then of course there is the cost of talent to make the engine shine in the hands of talented individuals.
#253
One thing I think a lot of people forget too is that the term "indie game developer" was something coined here at GarageGames because calling people the actual term, "ShareWare developer", doesn't quite have the same positive ring to it.
Though when you think of things as a "shareware developer" I think the picture becomes a lot more clear what "indies" need to do to survive in this marketspace.
@Paul
BTW to make 100k in sales you would only need to sell about 4000 units of your game which isn't unreasonable considering 1000 units lifetime for an "indie" title isnt far out of someones reach (regardless if they use UDK, Torque, Unity or another game engine).
11/18/2009 (12:35 pm)
@PatOne thing I think a lot of people forget too is that the term "indie game developer" was something coined here at GarageGames because calling people the actual term, "ShareWare developer", doesn't quite have the same positive ring to it.
Though when you think of things as a "shareware developer" I think the picture becomes a lot more clear what "indies" need to do to survive in this marketspace.
@Paul
BTW to make 100k in sales you would only need to sell about 4000 units of your game which isn't unreasonable considering 1000 units lifetime for an "indie" title isnt far out of someones reach (regardless if they use UDK, Torque, Unity or another game engine).
#254
You know, that's part of the problem with "Indie": Many Indies don't know jack about doing business. I'm throwing my name into that hat as well, though I'm doing what seems to be the rare thing and doing research.
I did a budget the other day and found that I needed to add almost 30% to the annual salaries for the positions I was willing to pay to cover benefits, vacation time, taxes, etc. And then when that salary ends up in the pocket of an employee... I mean, God-forbid you live here in NYC, I'll see 38% of my paycheck gone to taxes when I do tech work, and the payrate is close to some game development positions (higher than some, lower than others).
If you're an Indie and you're not spending time to learn about how to run your business if it's successful, then you're in the wrong! And saying that you don't expect to succeed is absolutely no excuse- it's downright irresponsible. As a business, you're going to have other people depending on you to get things done. If you can't run it, it will fail (the amount of money you rake in doesn't protect you either, lest you forget the lessons paraded in front of the lens of your favorite news channels over the last year).
11/18/2009 (12:43 pm)
Quote:Maybe other people have different ideas about being "in business" but there's these expenses
You know, that's part of the problem with "Indie": Many Indies don't know jack about doing business. I'm throwing my name into that hat as well, though I'm doing what seems to be the rare thing and doing research.
I did a budget the other day and found that I needed to add almost 30% to the annual salaries for the positions I was willing to pay to cover benefits, vacation time, taxes, etc. And then when that salary ends up in the pocket of an employee... I mean, God-forbid you live here in NYC, I'll see 38% of my paycheck gone to taxes when I do tech work, and the payrate is close to some game development positions (higher than some, lower than others).
If you're an Indie and you're not spending time to learn about how to run your business if it's successful, then you're in the wrong! And saying that you don't expect to succeed is absolutely no excuse- it's downright irresponsible. As a business, you're going to have other people depending on you to get things done. If you can't run it, it will fail (the amount of money you rake in doesn't protect you either, lest you forget the lessons paraded in front of the lens of your favorite news channels over the last year).
#255
A lot of questions you have to ask. As mentioned before 100k is not much and if you live in a major city that could be the cost for a single employee. As I mentioned 200k is nearly 50k in revenue lost that could pay for a lot of contract work or an employee or two depending on where they are at.
11/18/2009 (2:02 pm)
I think that is where the words "indie" and "hobby" developer(s) get mixed up. The goal if you are an "indie" is really to live off of what you are doing. I am sure the dream if you do this as a hobby as well is that you might aquire enough skills to develop video games, but if you are really striking out there and putting a lot on the line, you really have two options, success and failure. You have to look at real costs. Is it yourself you have to pay for or do you plan on hiring others? How much is it going to cost to distribute your game? Can you self distribute? Do you have an advertising strategy if you do? Do you hire someone to do it instead thinking the ROI will be better? If you are running servers do you know the cost for hardware, hosting, bandwidth? Do you know what kind of servers you need and what the best option is to get the most users for the least amount of cost? Is it cheaper to refactor your network code or just buy new servers? Do I need to go do some more contract work to eat?A lot of questions you have to ask. As mentioned before 100k is not much and if you live in a major city that could be the cost for a single employee. As I mentioned 200k is nearly 50k in revenue lost that could pay for a lot of contract work or an employee or two depending on where they are at.
#256
My $0.02:
For a while now, I've advocated that GG should provide a lower price point on T3D. But I think it's particularly crucial now. Specifically -- just to remain competitive -- GG needs to provide a no source, non-commercial version (at least), for FREE. Otherwise (and it's clearly already happening), people are going to be like, "Hot damn! UDK (or Unity) is FREEEE! I'm outta here!" And they won't be looking back either; as has been mentioned before, people will stick with the engine they know (and love).
As for what I'd like to see added to the T3D engine, +1 for terrain/object streaming. Actually, +100; I think this is a must-have feature. As the size and detail in game levels increases, it becomes impossible to keep an entire level in memory; there has got to be a way to dynamically stream it in.
Finally (for more potential additions to T3D), you need not look any further than Crytek's latest offerings, or idTech 5. And I don't just mean technology-wise, but tool-wise as well. For example, IMO, Crytek's level editor is second to none; well at least right now -- certainly id's tool-set is the future: real-time/in-game, collaborative level content creation, including textures? Hella cool.
11/18/2009 (5:28 pm)
+1 to what Ted, Josh, Allen, and Sparkling have said. And -1 to all the burnt-toast people. =PMy $0.02:
For a while now, I've advocated that GG should provide a lower price point on T3D. But I think it's particularly crucial now. Specifically -- just to remain competitive -- GG needs to provide a no source, non-commercial version (at least), for FREE. Otherwise (and it's clearly already happening), people are going to be like, "Hot damn! UDK (or Unity) is FREEEE! I'm outta here!" And they won't be looking back either; as has been mentioned before, people will stick with the engine they know (and love).
As for what I'd like to see added to the T3D engine, +1 for terrain/object streaming. Actually, +100; I think this is a must-have feature. As the size and detail in game levels increases, it becomes impossible to keep an entire level in memory; there has got to be a way to dynamically stream it in.
Finally (for more potential additions to T3D), you need not look any further than Crytek's latest offerings, or idTech 5. And I don't just mean technology-wise, but tool-wise as well. For example, IMO, Crytek's level editor is second to none; well at least right now -- certainly id's tool-set is the future: real-time/in-game, collaborative level content creation, including textures? Hella cool.
#257
That's just it, I am not IN this business.
I have a job that pays the bills and it's not related to games at all. Anything I could possibly make off of developing a small game on my own time would just be gravy. That's how I can stand to let go of 25%. I am not paying anyone else. I work for free. ;)
I am not talking about developing a AAA box title or MMO that will retail for $50 here.
11/18/2009 (5:52 pm)
@LukeThat's just it, I am not IN this business.
I have a job that pays the bills and it's not related to games at all. Anything I could possibly make off of developing a small game on my own time would just be gravy. That's how I can stand to let go of 25%. I am not paying anyone else. I work for free. ;)
I am not talking about developing a AAA box title or MMO that will retail for $50 here.
#258
11/18/2009 (5:53 pm)
It's been mentioned that GG should provide TGE for free. So allow me to clarify my stance here: There absolutely needs to be a free T3D version. As cool as a free TGE might be, that engine is just too old to showcase Torque technology. I.e. people will try TGE, say "This looks like garbage!" and leave for UDK, Unity, etc. anyway.
#259
I think the fact is, something needs to meed halfway, between a free version of T3D and the pro version. Cause no source with Torque is very limiting as to what you can accomplish, scripting just isn't powerful enough. Rerelease TGEA as an as is product, no support except community support given by other members.
11/18/2009 (7:25 pm)
@Kevin I totally agree with your view on what people will think of a free TGE. That engine is just way too outdated. I think there needs to be a free non-source version of T3D and a cheap version of TGEA. To work as a step-stool to get people to buy T3D. Using TGEA is only going to make someone want T3D so much more. Especially when people start trying to implement things and realize those features are already in T3D and done much better than the way they are trying to implement them.I think the fact is, something needs to meed halfway, between a free version of T3D and the pro version. Cause no source with Torque is very limiting as to what you can accomplish, scripting just isn't powerful enough. Rerelease TGEA as an as is product, no support except community support given by other members.
#260
Need streaming terrain & object content.
Need multi-developer collaborative world editing (without breaking the toolset in the process!) that works over the internet so virtual teams can work simultaneously in the same mission.
Very important!
11/18/2009 (7:34 pm)
Gotta +1 to Kevin here.Need streaming terrain & object content.
Need multi-developer collaborative world editing (without breaking the toolset in the process!) that works over the internet so virtual teams can work simultaneously in the same mission.
Very important!
Torque Owner Trent
As for generic, well I'm looking to make games that make use of the mouse. Last time I looked into this for TGE / TGEA, I needed to modify to source to do that, and it didn't look trivial. Made my head hurt given that game development is not my day job and my spare time is... well non-existent these days (I have kids!). Any spare time I have my brain says "NO THINKING!", so I play games instead. So what I really need is a free cursor and the ability to shoot rays off it and get a collision list back. I have no idea if T3D does this yet, as I am still at work right now and only just learnt of the limited demo.