Open Source TGE: Sooner rather than later
by Ian Omroth Hardingham · 09/30/2009 (8:52 am) · 58 comments
An open-sourced TGE would revitalise the community and provide a significantly larger possible client base for T3D. I think absolutely everyone wins. Please take this as a massive "Yes" vote from me.
I don't think TGE would be much of a competitor for T3D either. I suppose the only bad thing that could come about is if people who would otherwise drop $1000 straight away on T3D decide to try TGE out first and for some reason don't end up buying. But I think by positioning the two in the correct way this could really be minimised.
The idea of open-sourcing TGE is the most exciting thing I've heard from GG since T3D was announced.
I don't think TGE would be much of a competitor for T3D either. I suppose the only bad thing that could come about is if people who would otherwise drop $1000 straight away on T3D decide to try TGE out first and for some reason don't end up buying. But I think by positioning the two in the correct way this could really be minimised.
The idea of open-sourcing TGE is the most exciting thing I've heard from GG since T3D was announced.
About the author
Designer and lead programmer on Frozen Synapse, Frozen Endzone, and Determinance. Co-owner of Mode 7 Games.
#22
No need to be an asshole.
09/30/2009 (4:00 pm)
@James, If you don't care about TGE or TGEA then leave it alone to those that do, everyone has differant target game/specs and etc...No need to be an asshole.
#23
Actually, TGE/TGEA/Torque 3D all share the same core... including Gamebase/Shapebase and much technology readily translates between them as highlighted by GMK/AFX2 being developed simultaneously for all three.
Current generation tech can *definitely* benefit...
09/30/2009 (4:03 pm)
I doubt the wisdom of "Go play with Ogre3D". I would rather have more eyes looking into what GarageGames has to offer than less...Actually, TGE/TGEA/Torque 3D all share the same core... including Gamebase/Shapebase and much technology readily translates between them as highlighted by GMK/AFX2 being developed simultaneously for all three.
Current generation tech can *definitely* benefit...
#24
I am very happy with T3D and plan on moving forward with it myself, but a lot of code is shared between all 3 code bases and more people contributing more resources will just help us all out in the long run.
09/30/2009 (4:08 pm)
@James: There is a lot still going on with TGE/TGEA including AFX updates and there is a deferred rendering solution coming to TGEA (like what we have with T3D now) not to mention other resources like SSAO that are IMO better than the one in T3D right now. Also, FSAA actually works in TGEA and it is kind of a mystery why it was removed for T3D. Need to remember to ask about that :-).I am very happy with T3D and plan on moving forward with it myself, but a lot of code is shared between all 3 code bases and more people contributing more resources will just help us all out in the long run.
#25
TGE is an old and tired friend, true, but is still more than capable of making great games with a little love and effort. Some people think new and shiny is what it takes... My main instrument of choice in my day job is a certifiable antique (69 Gibson LP) and I still use it despite my newer tools.
Open Source? I'll be there if such a thing were to happen.
09/30/2009 (4:19 pm)
Quote:More of this and less of the "let it die" or "get over it" mentality is what the community really needs :D
I am very happy with T3D and plan on moving forward with it myself, but a lot of code is shared between all 3 code bases and more people contributing more resources will just help us all out in the long run.
TGE is an old and tired friend, true, but is still more than capable of making great games with a little love and effort. Some people think new and shiny is what it takes... My main instrument of choice in my day job is a certifiable antique (69 Gibson LP) and I still use it despite my newer tools.
Open Source? I'll be there if such a thing were to happen.
#26
09/30/2009 (4:42 pm)
Thank you Joshua and Michael, It's good to see T3Ders that care about the Core Tech! 
#27
I have licensed both TGE and TGEA and wouldn't feel the slightest bit unhappy about either becoming open source (GPL or similar). My license would still be valid and would still allow me to create my own closed source games. Whilst at the same time the Open Source community get a new engine to make games on and improve.
If that engine is GPL, then they have the added restriction (or bonus depending which side of the fence you sit) of having to release changes.
Some thought would need to be given to whether GarageGames want to foster the open source community _here_ with dedicated forums and resources though. If they do, existing TGE holders (and tgea/t3d...) would then have to be careful not to use any resources posted from the open source projects. If they don't, then it isn't really an issue, the open source community will work things out amongst themselves.
Of course the license may not be GPL, it may be a custom one, in which case resource incompatability can be avoided by clauses in the license, but then the open source community may not jump onboard as quickly as they might with a GPL compatible license.
09/30/2009 (5:44 pm)
Quote:As Ando pointed out people who paid for the product will not be happy with their purchase becoming a free open item
I have licensed both TGE and TGEA and wouldn't feel the slightest bit unhappy about either becoming open source (GPL or similar). My license would still be valid and would still allow me to create my own closed source games. Whilst at the same time the Open Source community get a new engine to make games on and improve.
If that engine is GPL, then they have the added restriction (or bonus depending which side of the fence you sit) of having to release changes.
Some thought would need to be given to whether GarageGames want to foster the open source community _here_ with dedicated forums and resources though. If they do, existing TGE holders (and tgea/t3d...) would then have to be careful not to use any resources posted from the open source projects. If they don't, then it isn't really an issue, the open source community will work things out amongst themselves.
Of course the license may not be GPL, it may be a custom one, in which case resource incompatability can be avoided by clauses in the license, but then the open source community may not jump onboard as quickly as they might with a GPL compatible license.
#28
I only found garagegames, because I found OpenTNL before when I was looking at an open source engine which suggested to use OpenTNL for networking.
It will be a benefit when people will use it as their beginner engine and the chance is high that they will upgrade to T3D because they already worked with torque script and know how the engine works.
Also for the people who bought TGE it will have a benefit when new features will created or bugs will be fixed from a bigger audience.
Finally for 3th party tools like AFX it can be a benefit when it can be sold to people who like to use it as an enhancement of the OpenTGE.
If it's a problem to release 1.5x because of the integrated lighting kit 1.4x or 1.3 are still valuable engines.
09/30/2009 (5:45 pm)
I would also like to see TGE as an open source project like OpenTNL. OpenTGE ? :) I only found garagegames, because I found OpenTNL before when I was looking at an open source engine which suggested to use OpenTNL for networking.
It will be a benefit when people will use it as their beginner engine and the chance is high that they will upgrade to T3D because they already worked with torque script and know how the engine works.
Also for the people who bought TGE it will have a benefit when new features will created or bugs will be fixed from a bigger audience.
Finally for 3th party tools like AFX it can be a benefit when it can be sold to people who like to use it as an enhancement of the OpenTGE.
If it's a problem to release 1.5x because of the integrated lighting kit 1.4x or 1.3 are still valuable engines.
#29
09/30/2009 (6:03 pm)
Opensourcing a product which is no longer bringing in the money has never hurt anybody, has it? I'm for the idea. I might not personally make use of it, but I think it can draw more people to the community. 
#30
Well there is :p
Open source, and closed source, are not the only options. Torque and Unreal are licensed under a commercial source code license. This is not the same as being open source. There are a number of reasons why a commercial source code license differs from an open source license, but the biggest one is the distribution rights to the source code. According to the Open Source Definition:
One of the biggest points of open source is that the end user has access to the source code. TGE and TGEA do not currently allow distribution of the source code, so it is not open source.
09/30/2009 (6:03 pm)
Quote:
I disagree. I don't see anything stupid in defining Unreal Tech open source :-)
Well there is :p
Quote:
The common mistake considering open source always as free software should not be spread around the world, at least at professional forums like GG forums are.
If a software is not open source, it should be defined closed source. But if Torque is closed source, what will be the definition for other competitors engine, i.e. Unity, that do not release source code? Really closed source? :-)
Open source, and closed source, are not the only options. Torque and Unreal are licensed under a commercial source code license. This is not the same as being open source. There are a number of reasons why a commercial source code license differs from an open source license, but the biggest one is the distribution rights to the source code. According to the Open Source Definition:
Quote:
The program must include source code, and must allow distribution in source code as well as compiled form. Where some form of a product is not distributed with source code, there must be a well-publicized means of obtaining the source code for no more than a reasonable reproduction cost preferably, downloading via the Internet without charge.
One of the biggest points of open source is that the end user has access to the source code. TGE and TGEA do not currently allow distribution of the source code, so it is not open source.
#31
Guys, lets not try and cover Open Source 101 here, please... there is plenty of information on the internet regarding the very basics.
09/30/2009 (6:09 pm)
Edit: Correction, looks like OSI picked up that piece of the GPL in their definition... which isn't attached to any license.Guys, lets not try and cover Open Source 101 here, please... there is plenty of information on the internet regarding the very basics.
#32
09/30/2009 (6:11 pm)
Yeah guys, the point of my post was not to define open source!
#33
09/30/2009 (6:12 pm)
Edited since it no longer applies :P 
#34
I do think that hosting OpenTGE (it's a catchy name) on GarageGames' website would not be wise, however. It would only serve as a distraction to GG's primary focus : T3D and T2D.
However, if they changed the license and moved the TGE content and forums over to a community driven website I think things could go smoothly. Give certain members admin privileges to delete certain forums posts, blogs, resources etc. GG's employees shouldn't have to spend their time (read: money) on a 'gift' to the community.
This way we can still have all of those wonderful TGE resources up, and still contribute to them. Think about the mmokit, tactical AI kit, rpg starter kits, model packs, etc. that will go by the wayside once the product is no longer for sale. And if Garagegame's is no longer selling TGE, why host these resources, forums, art packs, or blogs relating to TGE if it's just going to pollute their current direction of T3D?
I actually understand GG's decision to cut out TGE (not so much TGEA though). Having an option available for the hobbyists out there is only going to create a bit more exposure for their premier engine, they just have to weight the costs of converting TGE to Open Source and providing a platform for a community to develop that product on their own.
09/30/2009 (6:30 pm)
I would be all for an Open Source version of TGE.. If they are going to stop selling the product, than why not give a little something back to the community members who cannot currently afford T3D?I do think that hosting OpenTGE (it's a catchy name) on GarageGames' website would not be wise, however. It would only serve as a distraction to GG's primary focus : T3D and T2D.
However, if they changed the license and moved the TGE content and forums over to a community driven website I think things could go smoothly. Give certain members admin privileges to delete certain forums posts, blogs, resources etc. GG's employees shouldn't have to spend their time (read: money) on a 'gift' to the community.
This way we can still have all of those wonderful TGE resources up, and still contribute to them. Think about the mmokit, tactical AI kit, rpg starter kits, model packs, etc. that will go by the wayside once the product is no longer for sale. And if Garagegame's is no longer selling TGE, why host these resources, forums, art packs, or blogs relating to TGE if it's just going to pollute their current direction of T3D?
I actually understand GG's decision to cut out TGE (not so much TGEA though). Having an option available for the hobbyists out there is only going to create a bit more exposure for their premier engine, they just have to weight the costs of converting TGE to Open Source and providing a platform for a community to develop that product on their own.
#35
09/30/2009 (9:05 pm)
Another vote for this great idea. And I'm also of the opinion that an open TGE would have to 'move away from home' to a community-based site, as much to keep out of GG's hair as for any other reason.Quote:It is about the same logic. TGE is legacy, outdate, useless, the only thing it will teach people is the way that things are not being done any more.It's not useless at all, if you can make a fun game with it, which is exactly what I and several others here are doing. An operating system, however, merely facilitates the use of other programs. Once a newer one comes out, the older one is redundant. While it might be the same case here, there are one or two areas where T3D falls behind TGE (well... precisely two, actually :P), aside from the fact that it's more expensive. What you're saying is that a car becomes useless as soon as a faster one is available. Well, *technically* so, but I think just about anyone would tell you you're crazy.
#36
10/01/2009 (3:41 am)
I see two options... lose TGE/A with no support other than existing TGE/A user base which will decline over time then making the product obsolete. Or make it open source and TGE/A are still alive with community support with long term commitment. Some amazing things will be produced which would only make Torque 3D a stronger platform. 
#37
Also, to say that TGE is a useless piece of old-tech that should die is VERY harsh! There are still a large number of people who own TGE, and use it. If it was useless, everyone in this community would have upgraded to TGEA.
I agree with having a separate website for openTGE (my name for it :P) which is maintained by some volunteers. It could have its own forums and resources (so as to not junk up the GG.com community section) with info about the other engines and tech.
One important thing that would be required for this to work to its purpose (and not detract from GG and their other AMAZING ENGINES!) is to stress the point that TGE is not a new tech, but an older "legacy engine" that really started the torque wheel rolling, and that it is a gift!
One other major point is that if openTGE is released, i think that owners of TGE should retain their $150 discount on TGEA and T3D, and hobbyists of openTGE should not gain such reward :D
Yeah! overall, i think that openTGE would be cool, and pump some life into the legacy engine TGE!
From Max
10/01/2009 (3:51 am)
Well I personally think, as a TGE owner, that making TGE open-sourced would be a great step for GG.Also, to say that TGE is a useless piece of old-tech that should die is VERY harsh! There are still a large number of people who own TGE, and use it. If it was useless, everyone in this community would have upgraded to TGEA.
I agree with having a separate website for openTGE (my name for it :P) which is maintained by some volunteers. It could have its own forums and resources (so as to not junk up the GG.com community section) with info about the other engines and tech.
One important thing that would be required for this to work to its purpose (and not detract from GG and their other AMAZING ENGINES!) is to stress the point that TGE is not a new tech, but an older "legacy engine" that really started the torque wheel rolling, and that it is a gift!
One other major point is that if openTGE is released, i think that owners of TGE should retain their $150 discount on TGEA and T3D, and hobbyists of openTGE should not gain such reward :D
Yeah! overall, i think that openTGE would be cool, and pump some life into the legacy engine TGE!
From Max
#38
We've a community of nearly 4000 members for the game we're developing on TGEA and I know many of whom have downloaded the demo's for both TGE and TGEA, plus constructor to see if they can learn and help us out.. Opening up this an option would bring a whole bundle of people into getting more involved with Torque Tech and those that continue to use these products and take it up as a hobby/career would naturally upgrade to Torque 3D in the future.
10/01/2009 (7:01 am)
I'd love to see the product move to an Open Source basis and continue to get the love and support from community members.We've a community of nearly 4000 members for the game we're developing on TGEA and I know many of whom have downloaded the demo's for both TGE and TGEA, plus constructor to see if they can learn and help us out.. Opening up this an option would bring a whole bundle of people into getting more involved with Torque Tech and those that continue to use these products and take it up as a hobby/career would naturally upgrade to Torque 3D in the future.
#39
And focus on the new generation.
10/01/2009 (8:58 am)
TGE has lived a long and prosper life. Let it rest in peace.And focus on the new generation.
#40
Then explain why games are still being made with it like Penny Arcade. TGE is also the only engine that will run in Linux (not going to count the outdated versions of T2D that one might be able to coax into working). The new generation is not for everyone. If the engine no longer interests you, why post negative comments when the topic at hand clearly doesn't apply to you?
10/01/2009 (9:34 am)
Legacy, outdated, useless? Rest in peace?Then explain why games are still being made with it like Penny Arcade. TGE is also the only engine that will run in Linux (not going to count the outdated versions of T2D that one might be able to coax into working). The new generation is not for everyone. If the engine no longer interests you, why post negative comments when the topic at hand clearly doesn't apply to you?
Torque Owner James Brad Barnette
3Dmotif LLC
There is about as much logic in beginners using TGE to learn as IT majors in college being forced to take a class in windows 3.1 or Windows 95.
Yes in a perfect world things would never get out date and things would stay relevant for ever but that is just not reality. The fact is that we learn things as we go and improve upon things and sometime find altogether ways of doing things and often the old ways of doing things are no longer relevant. Should we all install windows 95 on our computers just because we paid good money for it back in the day. I find this argument to be slightly insane.
For God's sake people get over it.