Torque 3D Development - Marching Towards Beta 3
by Brett Seyler · 06/05/2009 (3:16 pm) · 50 comments
Hey GG'ers. Sorry for the radio silence in the past couple weeks since Beta 2. I spent most of this week at E3 and holy crap...E3 is back! I saw Mickey Rourke at the Bethesda booth, and Stan Lee at the Activision booth. Definitely a gamers paradise. I did get *some* work done too, mostly doing private demos of Torque 3D for studios and publishers at the show. Like at GDC, the response has been pretty phenomenal.
There's still a lot happening on Torque 3D, but everyone's been hard at work on Beta 3, and a major part of that work involves making sure everything we've got is also working smoothly on OSX. Here's a glimpse:
In other news of progress, Pat Wilson is making steady progress with Torque 3D on the Xbox 360, so that route will be available to Torque 3D developers in short order.
Also, I believe I've mentioned this before, but one of the under-touted improvements to Torque 3D is a fully unified Undo / Redo stack from the editor. This means that any change, using any of the editors, can be undone and redone in order. Lara put together a short video showing this off. Check it out...
There have also already been tremendous cool new projects from Torque 3D developers. I expect a lot more of this to come, but here are some of the highlights...
From Matt Kronyak:
From OmegaDog:
From Adam Beer:
From Mike J.:
Using EdgeAA to create a cartoon styling PostFX shader
Finally, Tom Spilman threw together this nice montage of lights, materials and physics to show off...
The community is doing awesome stuff with Torque 3D, even while in beta. It's fun to watch and we're definitely on the lookout for more.
If you're ready to move to Torque 3D, you can still get $100 OFF pre-order discount right now. This discount will expire when we've released a final version of Torque 3D. If you're already a Torque 3D owner, congrats! Please remember to post your Beta 2 feedback in Torque 3D Private Forums. We need your help!
More development blogs to come. This is post #22.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, and the Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#22
06/06/2009 (6:38 pm)
Hmmm, FYI, the material/light demo video in this post shows some serious issues with lighting, shadowing and physics integration (incorrect ray casting code?), and, frankly, does not look impressive (something like a lot of indie engines (with Bullet/ODE/PhysX) had for 5 years already), nor gives T3D a good vibe... It needs to be marked as T3D Beta 2, or people will be judging T3D RC by it. 
#24
It would certainly help with the learning curve, I know some people have been able to jump right in but I have a limited knowledge of render code so its been a little hard to understand how everything fits together.
From what I can tell there are some really nice systems in place it would just be nice to have some guidance on the best way to use them.
06/06/2009 (7:52 pm)
I'm curious what kind of documentation we are going to be getting with Torque3D. I would really like to see some detailed documentation on how shaders and rendering work. With examples on how to use the postFX system as well as maybe some examples of bringing over HLSL code from FX Composer or Render monkey.It would certainly help with the learning curve, I know some people have been able to jump right in but I have a limited knowledge of render code so its been a little hard to understand how everything fits together.
From what I can tell there are some really nice systems in place it would just be nice to have some guidance on the best way to use them.
#25
1) The docs are sharp they have good detail and some small tutorials.
2) "Jump right in" In 1.7 Konrad Kiss had a shader that was used in the DCK it was replaced with a material.cs that's how powerful the material systems is you don't need a shader for most things it just easy as pie! And when you need a shader you set it up and then add a line or two to your material.cs and when your material is rendered it will use the shader you supply similar to TGEA.
3) "Jump right in" This Ninja was downloaded from TurboSquid and loaded in to 3DS max it was 32K polys so it was multiresed lowered to 20K Tris and run optimize then also changed the color channels to use a texture one for red one for grey because in T3D no texture no effects! Exported via Collada Saved as art/shapes/Ninja/ninja.dae copied the two textures to this directory. Now by default T3D will load it render it just like the persp view in 3Dmax and create the material.cs for you now you can tweak add way too much specular(me bad) or anything you want.
1080p HD Image Link www.bitslap.me/1080p.jpg
***Note the ninja in the very back is the coolest I can not wait to get this model rigged.
1080p HD Link www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn1ONzO0tc0 Click HD! Click Full Screen! Please!
06/06/2009 (10:23 pm)
@Greg1) The docs are sharp they have good detail and some small tutorials.
2) "Jump right in" In 1.7 Konrad Kiss had a shader that was used in the DCK it was replaced with a material.cs that's how powerful the material systems is you don't need a shader for most things it just easy as pie! And when you need a shader you set it up and then add a line or two to your material.cs and when your material is rendered it will use the shader you supply similar to TGEA.
3) "Jump right in" This Ninja was downloaded from TurboSquid and loaded in to 3DS max it was 32K polys so it was multiresed lowered to 20K Tris and run optimize then also changed the color channels to use a texture one for red one for grey because in T3D no texture no effects! Exported via Collada Saved as art/shapes/Ninja/ninja.dae copied the two textures to this directory. Now by default T3D will load it render it just like the persp view in 3Dmax and create the material.cs for you now you can tweak add way too much specular(me bad) or anything you want.
1080p HD Image Link www.bitslap.me/1080p.jpg
***Note the ninja in the very back is the coolest I can not wait to get this model rigged.
1080p HD Link www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn1ONzO0tc0 Click HD! Click Full Screen! Please!
#26
Having a very basic overview of how all the render stuff works in Torque 3D would be nice (for example how to correctly do multiple passes, or how to do a minimal pass on an object). I suppose my problem is that I am coming to Torque not knowing how to write some of the more advanced render code and I am trying to use it as a medium to learn in, but there is already this very complex setup in place.
Between the Post Effects system, GFX2, and the material system there is a lot of code to dig through. It makes it difficult to just find DirectX examples online and just try them out in Torque. It would be nice to have some docs that covered the gap between super advanced and extremely basic.
I remember TGEA having some documentation on the GFX system but it would be nice if they updated it to include all that has been added in T3D and perhaps had some tutorials to get you started.
I understand garage games isn't in the business of hand holding. I'm just trying to get an idea of what's going to be on offer in terms of docs.
06/06/2009 (10:39 pm)
I know how to write custom shaders. I have already written a few basic ones that work. However, I need some Non Photo Real visual effects that you might describe as toon shaders, and I need them to do very specific things, and need to be able to control when they are applied.Having a very basic overview of how all the render stuff works in Torque 3D would be nice (for example how to correctly do multiple passes, or how to do a minimal pass on an object). I suppose my problem is that I am coming to Torque not knowing how to write some of the more advanced render code and I am trying to use it as a medium to learn in, but there is already this very complex setup in place.
Between the Post Effects system, GFX2, and the material system there is a lot of code to dig through. It makes it difficult to just find DirectX examples online and just try them out in Torque. It would be nice to have some docs that covered the gap between super advanced and extremely basic.
I remember TGEA having some documentation on the GFX system but it would be nice if they updated it to include all that has been added in T3D and perhaps had some tutorials to get you started.
I understand garage games isn't in the business of hand holding. I'm just trying to get an idea of what's going to be on offer in terms of docs.
#27
That said... we're really busy finishing T3D code... and i'm not sure what the documentation schedule is like.
Also remember that the best resource you have with Torque is this community. Just about anything your trying to do, someone else has already done it or knows where you should start looking for a solution. Ask questions... it really does pay off.
Now for your case. I haven't personally written any toon shaders, so i'll probably miss something here. My understanding is that it consists of using thresholds in shading and outlining the object.
If i were to be doing this i would avoid CustomMaterial. Instead i would write an alternate ShaderFeature to replace the existing lighting features. If done properly it should work with all the existing material features (texture animation, detail textures, shadowing, etc) and feel like a natural extension on the material system.
The outlining you've already seen in Brett's post above... a PostEffect should nicely work for you there.
06/07/2009 (1:47 am)
@Greg - I know i've talked to Mitch about doing overview docs on the major rendering systems (materials, GFX, lighting, and postfx). Also i expect that i'll write some tutorials on a few select coding tasks.That said... we're really busy finishing T3D code... and i'm not sure what the documentation schedule is like.
Also remember that the best resource you have with Torque is this community. Just about anything your trying to do, someone else has already done it or knows where you should start looking for a solution. Ask questions... it really does pay off.
Now for your case. I haven't personally written any toon shaders, so i'll probably miss something here. My understanding is that it consists of using thresholds in shading and outlining the object.
If i were to be doing this i would avoid CustomMaterial. Instead i would write an alternate ShaderFeature to replace the existing lighting features. If done properly it should work with all the existing material features (texture animation, detail textures, shadowing, etc) and feel like a natural extension on the material system.
The outlining you've already seen in Brett's post above... a PostEffect should nicely work for you there.
#28
06/07/2009 (3:03 am)
So the tutorial about using the alternate ShaderFeature will be available eventually?
#29
@11 sec: The shadows of the "boxes"(whatever they are) are borKen. Both boxes shown have 2 shadows that barely represent the sahpe of the model. Here (shadows generated from triangle strips oO ..yikes!)
@22 sec: the "box" goes through boards, and the boards simply fall in lazy fashion. There is no transfer of energy or impulse. (physics sticking is apparent as well)Here
@53Sec-57sec: the gun is hovering off the player's body(see shadow). It simply looks terribly goofy. That old thing could deal with being fixed.
Here
@Brett, thanks for that info.
06/07/2009 (3:43 am)
Here are some oddities I noticed,(to help out where I can):@11 sec: The shadows of the "boxes"(whatever they are) are borKen. Both boxes shown have 2 shadows that barely represent the sahpe of the model. Here (shadows generated from triangle strips oO ..yikes!)
@22 sec: the "box" goes through boards, and the boards simply fall in lazy fashion. There is no transfer of energy or impulse. (physics sticking is apparent as well)Here
@53Sec-57sec: the gun is hovering off the player's body(see shadow). It simply looks terribly goofy. That old thing could deal with being fixed.
Here
@Brett, thanks for that info.
#30
I think 11sec is due to the "DualParaboloid" split ... but don't ask me what that means, I just saw the same thing elsewhere on the forums!
53-57sec, I think gun mounting is using eyeoffset. Some sort of mesh "notcastshadows" would be a decent fix ... but I've no idea how problematic it would be to implement that...
06/07/2009 (6:13 am)
@ebI think 11sec is due to the "DualParaboloid" split ... but don't ask me what that means, I just saw the same thing elsewhere on the forums!
53-57sec, I think gun mounting is using eyeoffset. Some sort of mesh "notcastshadows" would be a decent fix ... but I've no idea how problematic it would be to implement that...
#31
Point lights have 3 different shadow options: Cube map (6 renders), Dual parboloid map (2 renders) or single-pass dual parboloid (1 render hence the name).
Right now things are defaulting to SPDPM. This causes larger-than-normal artifacts because I made up the technique myself and DX9 is not at all suited for doing what needs to be done to do single-pass properly. They are, however, really fast. It was always the intent that you could change the split-plane for where it splits between "front" and "back" of the paraboloid so that artists could try to hide the artifacts.
For more info on dual paraboloid in general, check out here: www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article2308.asp
06/07/2009 (9:25 am)
The line down the center is indeed a dual parboloid effect.Point lights have 3 different shadow options: Cube map (6 renders), Dual parboloid map (2 renders) or single-pass dual parboloid (1 render hence the name).
Right now things are defaulting to SPDPM. This causes larger-than-normal artifacts because I made up the technique myself and DX9 is not at all suited for doing what needs to be done to do single-pass properly. They are, however, really fast. It was always the intent that you could change the split-plane for where it splits between "front" and "back" of the paraboloid so that artists could try to hide the artifacts.
For more info on dual paraboloid in general, check out here: www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article2308.asp
#32
If you follow the official documentation feedback thread, you can post suggestions for required guides and receive updates on new doc releases.
06/07/2009 (10:22 am)
@Greg G and Steven - Yes, the docs you are wanting will eventually be available. It's difficult to document a moving target, so I have to hold back on writing certain guides until a feature is "near complete." When this project started, my weakest area of knowledge was in rendering. When writing Torque 3D docs about this subject, there are a lot of situations where I have to stop writing an overview/guide and ask the devs for clarification. The whole team is amazing at responding to my inquiries, but I still have to pause for a day or two to get the answers. In that time, I find myself going to other sites to study core concepts. I have to learn a lot of this stuff like you guys, I just have to learn it three times faster to keep up with development and get the docs out for you so it takes you half the time to learn what I did.If you follow the official documentation feedback thread, you can post suggestions for required guides and receive updates on new doc releases.
#33
06/07/2009 (4:02 pm)
Damn it's looking nice. It's a shame I missed the $200 off promo, probably would have picked it up.
#34
06/07/2009 (11:15 pm)
As T3D comes with a PhysX demo, is this also on the Mac, or am I going to have to license PhysX for $50k to build my own ?
#35
EDIT:
"It looks like Mac users may be waiting a while longer to get their hands on PhysX"
Im still waiting!
06/07/2009 (11:23 pm)
True Dat! www.macworld.com/article/50772/2006/05/physx.htmlEDIT:
"It looks like Mac users may be waiting a while longer to get their hands on PhysX"
Im still waiting!
#36
Yes, you've been able to build Mac binaries with the source for a long time. But the free SDK does not contain them, so is the PhysX demo Windows only ?
06/07/2009 (11:30 pm)
But what does a story from 2006 tell me ?Yes, you've been able to build Mac binaries with the source for a long time. But the free SDK does not contain them, so is the PhysX demo Windows only ?
#37
EDIT: Not saying Macs dont have Physx just saying the "COMPUTER WORLD" dosen't support Mac like PC's
06/07/2009 (11:43 pm)
Macs never been supported for some reason even with Nvidia now teaming with Apple the free sdk may never come.EDIT: Not saying Macs dont have Physx just saying the "COMPUTER WORLD" dosen't support Mac like PC's
#38
06/08/2009 (12:16 am)
We are looking into it. It is possible that while Beta 3 will ship with Mac support, it won't be able to ship it with PhysX support just yet. 
#39
06/09/2009 (3:04 am)
when can download t3d beta3 and up show demo? 
#40
Its getting to the point, where im wondering what it is i should be working on and implementing /figuring out. But their is no point in investing lots of effort into something that will be implemented by you lot (and probably better) anyway.
06/09/2009 (10:28 am)
Hey guys, When can we expect Beta3 to come out? I do have a question, which i know you guys will most surely be sick of hearing by now. But given the stage of development of T3D, is it possible that you Could publish a list of features that each of the addon packs will have? (the Genre kits (fps for me) and the Forest kit etc).Its getting to the point, where im wondering what it is i should be working on and implementing /figuring out. But their is no point in investing lots of effort into something that will be implemented by you lot (and probably better) anyway.
Associate Manoel Neto
Default Studio Name
The T3D lighting and postprocessing systems are a *massive* jump from TGEA's, nearly as much as TGEA 1.7 GFX system was from TGE. After working with the betas and checking their source code, I can say that calling T3D "TGEA 2.0" is a major mistake.