Torque 3D Concerns
by Ray Gebhardt · 03/25/2009 (6:38 am) · 31 comments
Torque 3D looks awesome and I am excited about the new release. The new features sound really cool and it looks like this will be the best release of Torque yet. I also think for the features you get, the price of the engine is reasonable. I have already preordered the engine and I can’t wait for it to be released. Despite my excitement about the new engine release I do have a few concerns.
The first issue I have is redistribution of the editors. There is one single value add that PC games have that no other platform has. That is moddability. I remember reading Masters of Doom and Id Software was amazed by how many people modded Doom, even though they really didn’t have anything built in to mod the engine. Their users would hack binaries and do all kinds of other crazy stuff to put stuff into the game that Id Software didn’t even think was possible. With every game they made after that, they made sure that there was plenty of functionality that modders could play with.
Moddabilty was one of the greatest things about previous releases of Torque. When you sold your game you could include all of the editors and let your users run wild, making anything they wanted with your game. It really added value to many games. Some examples of moddable games are Marble Blast, Minions of Mirth, Determinance , Blockland and yes of course Tribes. ;) Blockland was modded so much that the developer of the game had to improve the security Torque to prevent mods from doing nasty things. I think moddability is probably the biggest unique selling point that Torque had. No other “indie” game engine I have heard of includes that feature.
My next issue is concerning the EULA. I read in a previous blog that artists can buy Torque Basic and use compiled binaries of Torque Pro, but you would only be able to do it because the EULA would be vague enough to allow for it. If artists must buy Torque Basic to use the editors I think it should be less vague. Smaller teams should be able to feel confident that they are not breaking the EULA. There also seem to be other grey areas with such a EULA. If someone is just doing script work, do they need a Torque Basic license, or no license at all if they are not using the editors?
Since we are on the topic of Torque Basic, I would like to bring up a few issues I have with it. In my opinion it will not be possible to make a “real” game with Torque Basic. Going by my knowledge of TGEA (and going by the blogs Torque 3D hasn’t fundamentally changed the engine architecture), anything that has to do with custom movement code, object picking, AI, etc is impossible without the source code. In other words with a base Torque, without source, the only game you could make is a very basic multiplayer FPS. You couldn’t make an RTS, puzzle game or anything else that didn’t fit the predefined game type.
Engines like Unity let you make pretty much any type of game, even with their “indie” license. The reason why it’s possible to make any type of game is because the engine lets you do anything from their compiled scripting languages. In fact that’s the only way you can make a game. Since the scripts get compiled to native code, you can do things like physics, without modifying the source code. I think anyone that buys Torque Basic will be very disappointed, especially at the $250 cost point, unless they are looking to make a Tribes clone.
I really liked how Torque used to make the binary version free. This allowed people to get their feet wet, and when they really got serious about making a game, they would have to purchase the engine. Were there some people that never bought the engine? Of course. At the same time I think it introduced a lot of people to the engine, and created a lot of good will towards GarageGames.
The last item on my list of issues is culling. I watched a video of the new poly soup code and almost instantly fell in love. Seeing how the poly soup meshes could be relit and all that stuff was really cool. The problem I have with poly soup is culling. One of the really nice things about interiors was that you could create portals, which could restrict what was rendered. The poly soup code doesn’t seem to do anything related to culling (at least there was no mention of it in any of the blogs I have read). It might not be an issue with Marble Blast or Legions, but many games require good culling in order to keep them performing well. Are there any plans to implement features to help developers will culling geometry? I read a blog about blockers, and that seemed like it could be part of the solution. I was just curious if GarageGames had any plans on developing a solution for culling with poly soup geometry.
Well those are the issues I have with the new release. I don’t mean for this post to sound like I am complaining. I just wanted to get my honest feelings out there about the new engine. I am still very excited about the new engine and glad that the money I put down for the prerelease could help fund the development of it.
The first issue I have is redistribution of the editors. There is one single value add that PC games have that no other platform has. That is moddability. I remember reading Masters of Doom and Id Software was amazed by how many people modded Doom, even though they really didn’t have anything built in to mod the engine. Their users would hack binaries and do all kinds of other crazy stuff to put stuff into the game that Id Software didn’t even think was possible. With every game they made after that, they made sure that there was plenty of functionality that modders could play with.
Moddabilty was one of the greatest things about previous releases of Torque. When you sold your game you could include all of the editors and let your users run wild, making anything they wanted with your game. It really added value to many games. Some examples of moddable games are Marble Blast, Minions of Mirth, Determinance , Blockland and yes of course Tribes. ;) Blockland was modded so much that the developer of the game had to improve the security Torque to prevent mods from doing nasty things. I think moddability is probably the biggest unique selling point that Torque had. No other “indie” game engine I have heard of includes that feature.
My next issue is concerning the EULA. I read in a previous blog that artists can buy Torque Basic and use compiled binaries of Torque Pro, but you would only be able to do it because the EULA would be vague enough to allow for it. If artists must buy Torque Basic to use the editors I think it should be less vague. Smaller teams should be able to feel confident that they are not breaking the EULA. There also seem to be other grey areas with such a EULA. If someone is just doing script work, do they need a Torque Basic license, or no license at all if they are not using the editors?
Since we are on the topic of Torque Basic, I would like to bring up a few issues I have with it. In my opinion it will not be possible to make a “real” game with Torque Basic. Going by my knowledge of TGEA (and going by the blogs Torque 3D hasn’t fundamentally changed the engine architecture), anything that has to do with custom movement code, object picking, AI, etc is impossible without the source code. In other words with a base Torque, without source, the only game you could make is a very basic multiplayer FPS. You couldn’t make an RTS, puzzle game or anything else that didn’t fit the predefined game type.
Engines like Unity let you make pretty much any type of game, even with their “indie” license. The reason why it’s possible to make any type of game is because the engine lets you do anything from their compiled scripting languages. In fact that’s the only way you can make a game. Since the scripts get compiled to native code, you can do things like physics, without modifying the source code. I think anyone that buys Torque Basic will be very disappointed, especially at the $250 cost point, unless they are looking to make a Tribes clone.
I really liked how Torque used to make the binary version free. This allowed people to get their feet wet, and when they really got serious about making a game, they would have to purchase the engine. Were there some people that never bought the engine? Of course. At the same time I think it introduced a lot of people to the engine, and created a lot of good will towards GarageGames.
The last item on my list of issues is culling. I watched a video of the new poly soup code and almost instantly fell in love. Seeing how the poly soup meshes could be relit and all that stuff was really cool. The problem I have with poly soup is culling. One of the really nice things about interiors was that you could create portals, which could restrict what was rendered. The poly soup code doesn’t seem to do anything related to culling (at least there was no mention of it in any of the blogs I have read). It might not be an issue with Marble Blast or Legions, but many games require good culling in order to keep them performing well. Are there any plans to implement features to help developers will culling geometry? I read a blog about blockers, and that seemed like it could be part of the solution. I was just curious if GarageGames had any plans on developing a solution for culling with poly soup geometry.
Well those are the issues I have with the new release. I don’t mean for this post to sound like I am complaining. I just wanted to get my honest feelings out there about the new engine. I am still very excited about the new engine and glad that the money I put down for the prerelease could help fund the development of it.
About the author
#22
Also, I believe that T3D will be more 'scriptable' than previous iterations of the engine, not quite to the level of TGB but it is going there from what I've seen with the docs from the Collada Test.
03/26/2009 (3:18 pm)
I'm not too concerned with the editor restrictions and I am sure GG are understanding if I emailed them about a special license for that very purpose.Also, I believe that T3D will be more 'scriptable' than previous iterations of the engine, not quite to the level of TGB but it is going there from what I've seen with the docs from the Collada Test.
#23
03/26/2009 (7:35 pm)
I'm confused on the pricing, How much is an indie preordered copy for a TEGA owner?
#24
03/26/2009 (9:34 pm)
$505 Chris 
#25
so:
T3D Pro - When fully released - $1000.00
If purchased on preorder - $800.00
If ordered on preorder and already an owner of TGEA - $505.00
T3D Basic available at release - $250.00
---------------------
The issue of whether a version of the editor is available for modding is a fairly big deal, at least in my experience. One of the biggest factors in an Mp side of a game these days is having a community vested in it's continued success and development. Look at most of the games that remain successful (ie mp community still going strong).. it's mainly due to the participation and contributions of a modding community who continuously keep the mp side of things vibrant with new maps or mods.. skins and many other things.
I disagree that it's putting the cart before the horse by considering these factors before the game is even finished.. in fact it's a must. To many GOOD games have come out, and withered and died within a couple of weeks because of poor planning on their part, and I'm talking about full AAA games with huge budgets and a massive staff. Look at FEAR2. The first week it was in the top 5 in game sales. The MP side at it's peak had around maybe.. a dozen matches to be found and now.. your lucky to find 5 or 6 hosted servers. IS an SDK coming? who knows, and at this point it doesnt matter because they waited to long effectively dropping the ball. The Modder's have left and moved on to other games. With FEAR1, an editor was made available relatively shortly after release, and to date, afew hundred servers can still be found, even before they made the mp sideof things a separate entity.
My point is for us Indies, being able to foster a modding community for our games is even more important in our cases than for the bigger offices. We do not have the marketing budgets, or the backing to get our game out there in the same fashion, so we rely on the other things to attract people, and modding is a big piece of that.
So.. I'm asking why this has been taken from us (and it has because we were allowed before), and at what price. Saying contact us by email is pretty much the same as saying the price is so high we don't want to shock everyone by putting it out there lol.
03/27/2009 (5:05 am)
@ ChrisQuote:If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505
If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
so:
T3D Pro - When fully released - $1000.00
If purchased on preorder - $800.00
If ordered on preorder and already an owner of TGEA - $505.00
T3D Basic available at release - $250.00
---------------------
The issue of whether a version of the editor is available for modding is a fairly big deal, at least in my experience. One of the biggest factors in an Mp side of a game these days is having a community vested in it's continued success and development. Look at most of the games that remain successful (ie mp community still going strong).. it's mainly due to the participation and contributions of a modding community who continuously keep the mp side of things vibrant with new maps or mods.. skins and many other things.
I disagree that it's putting the cart before the horse by considering these factors before the game is even finished.. in fact it's a must. To many GOOD games have come out, and withered and died within a couple of weeks because of poor planning on their part, and I'm talking about full AAA games with huge budgets and a massive staff. Look at FEAR2. The first week it was in the top 5 in game sales. The MP side at it's peak had around maybe.. a dozen matches to be found and now.. your lucky to find 5 or 6 hosted servers. IS an SDK coming? who knows, and at this point it doesnt matter because they waited to long effectively dropping the ball. The Modder's have left and moved on to other games. With FEAR1, an editor was made available relatively shortly after release, and to date, afew hundred servers can still be found, even before they made the mp sideof things a separate entity.
My point is for us Indies, being able to foster a modding community for our games is even more important in our cases than for the bigger offices. We do not have the marketing budgets, or the backing to get our game out there in the same fashion, so we rely on the other things to attract people, and modding is a big piece of that.
So.. I'm asking why this has been taken from us (and it has because we were allowed before), and at what price. Saying contact us by email is pretty much the same as saying the price is so high we don't want to shock everyone by putting it out there lol.
#26
I'd recommend actually talking to them about what your exact needs are, and how they can be met while protecting their IP, before jumping off the bandwagon. This is a bit of a different situation than the "contact us for console license prices", which usually means it's time for a second mortgage. This is a situation where different people are going to have different needs, so throwing out a generic price point is probably not realistic. The GG guys are reasonable, and sending an email doesn't take any more time than writing a comment on a blog :p
03/27/2009 (4:06 pm)
Just throwing the Torque editors in the mix doesn't really make a good modable game anyway. If you think just throwing a world and terrain editor in is going to automatically give your game an extended life, you're kidding yourself. To have a game that is modable in a friendly, community way, you need editors that are customized for your type of game. I haven't seen many good modable games ship with the same generic tools that come with the game engine that it's based on.I'd recommend actually talking to them about what your exact needs are, and how they can be met while protecting their IP, before jumping off the bandwagon. This is a bit of a different situation than the "contact us for console license prices", which usually means it's time for a second mortgage. This is a situation where different people are going to have different needs, so throwing out a generic price point is probably not realistic. The GG guys are reasonable, and sending an email doesn't take any more time than writing a comment on a blog :p
#27
03/27/2009 (5:34 pm)
Just one quick question If I dont preorder T3D But am a current owner of TGEA and want to buy it later will I still get it for $705?
#28
now buying T3D first will we still be able to download TGEA and TGE i do not know that yet but i would think that apply still as well.
03/27/2009 (6:32 pm)
yes you will still get to buy it for $705 if you wait latter on. anyone who buys tgea even after its already been released can still get that discount just like tge to tgea its all the same.now buying T3D first will we still be able to download TGEA and TGE i do not know that yet but i would think that apply still as well.
#29
@Gerald:
That may be true in some cases, but it's better than nothing at all. In any case, I believe that if the game devs can use it, serious users can as well. If it's so difficult that no player can figure it out, it's probably not working well for the game devs either.
Also, it's not like we're talking about TGB where the editor obviously can't be used to make mods. In that case, sure... there would most definitely need to be a "custom editor" for that.
03/28/2009 (7:10 am)
I think Andrew pretty much has the point in the bag. Good job.@Gerald:
That may be true in some cases, but it's better than nothing at all. In any case, I believe that if the game devs can use it, serious users can as well. If it's so difficult that no player can figure it out, it's probably not working well for the game devs either.
Also, it's not like we're talking about TGB where the editor obviously can't be used to make mods. In that case, sure... there would most definitely need to be a "custom editor" for that.
#30
03/28/2009 (9:47 am)
Ok thanks thats good!
#31
IMO, and I fully realize this opinion is not shared by everyone here, only a completely rewritten engine could justify such a price spike.
one more thing, I've noticed alot of people respond to any dissatisfaction with the price by saying "well, if you can't afford it...", which completely misses the point. Expressing that the price is too high doesn't imply that it's beyond a person's means, it just means they feel the value to cost ratio is off.
03/28/2009 (11:50 am)
my biggest issue I have with the new T3d product is the price. It's waay too high for what is essentialy an update to a code base which is about 10 years old. IMO, and I fully realize this opinion is not shared by everyone here, only a completely rewritten engine could justify such a price spike.
one more thing, I've noticed alot of people respond to any dissatisfaction with the price by saying "well, if you can't afford it...", which completely misses the point. Expressing that the price is too high doesn't imply that it's beyond a person's means, it just means they feel the value to cost ratio is off.
Associate Ray Gebhardt
I could easily understand it if Torque 3D was mostly just a game maker. But Torque 3D is obviously not a game maker. You need the engine source to make nearly any type of game. This really should not be an issue at all, because to distribute a game, you need a license to the engine anyways. The only customers GarageGames would lose are some hobbyists that don't pirate everything. Anyone that was serious about making a game would buy Torque 3D anyways. I thought the increase in price was going to be to better support professionals, rather than try to get more money out of hobbyists.