Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#162
Don't think so, you get a fair chunk of source code to do with weapons, player control, npcs, menus, etc, so that you can compile a new game dll for modding purposes (since Source does not natively use any scripting language).
Pretty sure you don't get any source for the rendering pipeline, physics or networking. Would be cool if you did though!
03/22/2009 (9:21 am)
@NeillQuote:I'm pretty sure that you get the full source code to the Source engine whenever you buy a game running Source
Don't think so, you get a fair chunk of source code to do with weapons, player control, npcs, menus, etc, so that you can compile a new game dll for modding purposes (since Source does not natively use any scripting language).
Pretty sure you don't get any source for the rendering pipeline, physics or networking. Would be cool if you did though!
#163
03/22/2009 (9:45 am)
You get the source code to HL2, not the complete source engine. It gives you what you need to mod the SDK for past/current games, or even new ones you create, but that's no different than using a binary really, albeit one on steroids. If this is attractive, then use it. I mean that with zero negativity. 
#164
the licenced cryEngine source code (it has to be licenced if you want to sell a game using it, which is why we are here, right???) is about double that,
and the licenced unreal3 source code (it has to be licenced if you want to sell a game using it, which is why we are here, right???) is about the same.
what do you get for your dollar with those??
lets see:
advanced physics
material editor
unified terrain system
various editors
advanced lighting
web publishing
source code included
road/path creation tools
river creation tools
WAIVABLE splash screen (for a bit more money)
AI
mmmmm,
now, what do you get for your $1000 torque 3d licenced source code? (it has to be licenced if you want to sell a game using it, which is why we are here, right???)
lets see:
advanced physics
material editor
unified terrain system
various editors
advanced lighting
web publishing
source code included
road/path creation tools
river creation tools
WAIVABLE splash screen (for a bit more money)
AI
PLUS
a community that actually gives help, advice, and sometimes just a plain old kick in the butt, when you need it.
so you know what? at 12:02am on the 24th of this month, I'm gonna be siting in front of a secure page, purchasing what I believe to be the best AAA game engine source code licence that I have seen in over 3 years.
Garage Games, I take my hat off to you all for giving us the means to fulfill our dreams, to make games the way WE want them made, with the finest tools thrown in just for the hell of it.
thank you.
03/22/2009 (10:15 am)
last time I saw, hl2 licenced source code (it has to be licenced if you want to sell a game using it, which is why we are here, right???) cost in excess of $1000000. (thats one million, all those zeros there).the licenced cryEngine source code (it has to be licenced if you want to sell a game using it, which is why we are here, right???) is about double that,
and the licenced unreal3 source code (it has to be licenced if you want to sell a game using it, which is why we are here, right???) is about the same.
what do you get for your dollar with those??
lets see:
advanced physics
material editor
unified terrain system
various editors
advanced lighting
web publishing
source code included
road/path creation tools
river creation tools
WAIVABLE splash screen (for a bit more money)
AI
mmmmm,
now, what do you get for your $1000 torque 3d licenced source code? (it has to be licenced if you want to sell a game using it, which is why we are here, right???)
lets see:
advanced physics
material editor
unified terrain system
various editors
advanced lighting
web publishing
source code included
road/path creation tools
river creation tools
WAIVABLE splash screen (for a bit more money)
AI
PLUS
a community that actually gives help, advice, and sometimes just a plain old kick in the butt, when you need it.
so you know what? at 12:02am on the 24th of this month, I'm gonna be siting in front of a secure page, purchasing what I believe to be the best AAA game engine source code licence that I have seen in over 3 years.
Garage Games, I take my hat off to you all for giving us the means to fulfill our dreams, to make games the way WE want them made, with the finest tools thrown in just for the hell of it.
thank you.
#166
03/22/2009 (11:18 am)
very clear cut deep scratch 
#167
03/22/2009 (11:20 am)
Just as a footnote, I was talking about T3D with one of my clients a few weeks ago and I mentioned the price change and they were thrilled about the prospects. 
#168
If I understand properly it's a per studio license instead of a per-developer (unlimited programmers)? And you mentioned custom liscenses?
03/22/2009 (11:55 am)
Quote:Short answer on this one is that it's going to be most expensive than the developer Pro seat in just about every case, but likely to be the same or similar price once you're talking about a team of 5+ people. The Studio license assigns admin rights to an admin at the company who can allocate seats, shuffle seats among multiple users if necessary and add seats if the team expands. There are seat price break points when you're talking about 10+ or 20+ seats. With licenses like these, there's are a lot of points to discuss too. Per project, or per-studio unlimied, etc. There's custom support, and all the other options in the EULA around using Torque. I hope that answers you question.
If I understand properly it's a per studio license instead of a per-developer (unlimited programmers)? And you mentioned custom liscenses?
#169
advanced physics
material editor
AI
Are these in Torque? That's a serious question. I've never really seen any good AI/Physics in Torque. And the only thing having to do with materials is selecting 8 or so materials to paint your terrain. AFAIK.
And that's not meant to down Torque, I just would want to see these if I am missing them. And don't reference anything not in the stock engine, things the community makes doesn't count.
03/22/2009 (12:06 pm)
@deepscratchadvanced physics
material editor
AI
Are these in Torque? That's a serious question. I've never really seen any good AI/Physics in Torque. And the only thing having to do with materials is selecting 8 or so materials to paint your terrain. AFAIK.
And that's not meant to down Torque, I just would want to see these if I am missing them. And don't reference anything not in the stock engine, things the community makes doesn't count.
#170
so you have a base price for the studio license lets say $3k then each seat cost $500 and you have a team of 10 people the cost will be $8k. lets say later on you want to add 2 more people to your team you have to pay $500 for each one so you have to pay $1 more for those 2 added seats.
i tried to make it as easy to under stand as i could. :P
03/22/2009 (12:08 pm)
Glan from what i got off of that is that you buy the studio license at so and so price then you have to buy seats for each developer you have which cost more money. if you want to add more people in your team and need more seats then you have o buy more. so yes its unlimited but you just have to pay more money for added seats.so you have a base price for the studio license lets say $3k then each seat cost $500 and you have a team of 10 people the cost will be $8k. lets say later on you want to add 2 more people to your team you have to pay $500 for each one so you have to pay $1 more for those 2 added seats.
i tried to make it as easy to under stand as i could. :P
#171
wait for more blogs you will see some major change in physics i think his next blog is goign over physics stuff we have not seen any major physics stuff done yet.
the AI might not be perfect but he also stated here in this blog some place that they are makeing a AI it just not going to be a good one. :P
material editor has not been shown ether he said in this blog its not ready to be shown yet.
theres allot of stuff being put in this engine we have not seen yet. theres also allot of small stuff that still not be shown as its just to small to even make a blog. i see some small things in some of these pictures in every blog that has not been talked about its because its so small you cant really say much about it not worth a hole blog. :P
03/22/2009 (12:13 pm)
Neill Silvawait for more blogs you will see some major change in physics i think his next blog is goign over physics stuff we have not seen any major physics stuff done yet.
the AI might not be perfect but he also stated here in this blog some place that they are makeing a AI it just not going to be a good one. :P
material editor has not been shown ether he said in this blog its not ready to be shown yet.
theres allot of stuff being put in this engine we have not seen yet. theres also allot of small stuff that still not be shown as its just to small to even make a blog. i see some small things in some of these pictures in every blog that has not been talked about its because its so small you cant really say much about it not worth a hole blog. :P
#172
at the top of this thread is the image I have posted, what I wrote was quoted word for word, you must have missed it when you started reading the thread, anyway here it is again.
notice the X's next to the professional? oh, sorry I didnt take a snapshot of the post about Gerhard's AI in this same thread
03/22/2009 (12:23 pm)
@Neill Silva,at the top of this thread is the image I have posted, what I wrote was quoted word for word, you must have missed it when you started reading the thread, anyway here it is again.
notice the X's next to the professional? oh, sorry I didnt take a snapshot of the post about Gerhard's AI in this same thread
#173
How does it behave on Intel GMA950 chipset (which can represent à big part of my potential users) ?
Better or worse then TGEA 1.8.1 ? Better or worse than TEG 1.5.2 ?
03/22/2009 (12:51 pm)
I'm very excited about having more information about T3D.How does it behave on Intel GMA950 chipset (which can represent à big part of my potential users) ?
Better or worse then TGEA 1.8.1 ? Better or worse than TEG 1.5.2 ?
#174
So I have been reading up on this T3D thing and from what I gather it is the next generation engine for GG? It sounded interesting but I do not see any details. What platforms does it support? Why does the "entry level" version seem like a demo package? What happened to the "you get the source" awesomeness of the original TGE?
Had Torque3D been my first exposure to Torque I would have walked away. However, as most of my development has never been more than a hobby I guess that doesn't matter. This package does stress Professional, but I never would have tried the Entry Level for $250 either.
Here is what I love most about TGE:
1. Fun loving developer community with a MIX of professionals AND hobbyists.
2. A great engine with great out of the box features.
3. Source code. (Would not consider an engine without it.)
4. An open artwork pipeline.
5. Low cost to entry. ($1000 is NOT low cost)
6. Cross platform, not just MS Windows. (This is a prerequisite)
It will be great to see what happens with this engine as GG has always creates good stuff. I do think though that the community surrounding this product will be smaller as entry level is now $1000 for a developer. Script doesn't cut it for real development. Even changing basic features in TGE required source code. I can't imagine Torque3D will be any easier in that respect. The strength of GG has ALWAYS been its community. Take a lesson from Michael Dell (founder of Dell computer): the 3 things that are needed are content, commerce, and community. Of those the most important aspect is community. Those who master a loyal community will dominate the industry. The cost to license the product is insignificant compared to getting a cut of a successful game project.
Good luck!
03/22/2009 (2:08 pm)
Wow, been away a while and everything is different. Web site is way harder to nav too! I was used to seeing way more info on the blog section.So I have been reading up on this T3D thing and from what I gather it is the next generation engine for GG? It sounded interesting but I do not see any details. What platforms does it support? Why does the "entry level" version seem like a demo package? What happened to the "you get the source" awesomeness of the original TGE?
Had Torque3D been my first exposure to Torque I would have walked away. However, as most of my development has never been more than a hobby I guess that doesn't matter. This package does stress Professional, but I never would have tried the Entry Level for $250 either.
Here is what I love most about TGE:
1. Fun loving developer community with a MIX of professionals AND hobbyists.
2. A great engine with great out of the box features.
3. Source code. (Would not consider an engine without it.)
4. An open artwork pipeline.
5. Low cost to entry. ($1000 is NOT low cost)
6. Cross platform, not just MS Windows. (This is a prerequisite)
It will be great to see what happens with this engine as GG has always creates good stuff. I do think though that the community surrounding this product will be smaller as entry level is now $1000 for a developer. Script doesn't cut it for real development. Even changing basic features in TGE required source code. I can't imagine Torque3D will be any easier in that respect. The strength of GG has ALWAYS been its community. Take a lesson from Michael Dell (founder of Dell computer): the 3 things that are needed are content, commerce, and community. Of those the most important aspect is community. Those who master a loyal community will dominate the industry. The cost to license the product is insignificant compared to getting a cut of a successful game project.
Good luck!
#175
Torque 3D is much more efficient on the CPU which will translate to better performance on lower end graphics hardware. In terms of compatibility, I run Torque 3D on my Netbook with in Intel 945 just fine... if I was targeting the hardware, it would be important to work with the artists to make sure there wasn't too many polygons or expensive fill operations...
03/22/2009 (2:33 pm)
The consumer level Intel chipsets don't have hardware T&L and have slow pixel shaders/fill... running well on this hardware takes a conscious effort that your content scales down to the hardware. Torque 3D is much more efficient on the CPU which will translate to better performance on lower end graphics hardware. In terms of compatibility, I run Torque 3D on my Netbook with in Intel 945 just fine... if I was targeting the hardware, it would be important to work with the artists to make sure there wasn't too many polygons or expensive fill operations...
#176
then the engine is not for you that why TGEA will sill be told if you cant afford or don't want to pay for T3D then its out of your league. T3D is basically a commercial product though its still intended for indies but its for the indies that know what they are doing and really want to have a game just as good as all the top games out there. if it don't fit in your price range then go with TGEA its just as good but with all the lower tec stuff. TGEA is a good learning engine as well be for you move up to T3D.
i might not be ready for T3D my self ether but i have the money and i like a challenge and i know TGEA quite well now to where i think its still ok to move forth. I was looking for a engine much like T3D anyway well i was really looking for HeroEngine but thats out of my price range. :P
03/22/2009 (2:34 pm)
Frank Carneythen the engine is not for you that why TGEA will sill be told if you cant afford or don't want to pay for T3D then its out of your league. T3D is basically a commercial product though its still intended for indies but its for the indies that know what they are doing and really want to have a game just as good as all the top games out there. if it don't fit in your price range then go with TGEA its just as good but with all the lower tec stuff. TGEA is a good learning engine as well be for you move up to T3D.
i might not be ready for T3D my self ether but i have the money and i like a challenge and i know TGEA quite well now to where i think its still ok to move forth. I was looking for a engine much like T3D anyway well i was really looking for HeroEngine but thats out of my price range. :P
#177
So far it's all talk, and I'm not going to be talked in to the engine pre-order. I've yet to see anything from this AI, Material Editor, or Advanced Physics...
Still waiting.
03/22/2009 (2:59 pm)
@deepscratchSo far it's all talk, and I'm not going to be talked in to the engine pre-order. I've yet to see anything from this AI, Material Editor, or Advanced Physics...
Still waiting.
#178
No one is trying to talk you into anything. We are posting an offer, which is a generous one. Those who take us up on that offer are going to grab something great at a reduced value earlier and cheaper than future purchasers.
03/22/2009 (3:11 pm)
@Neill - All talk would mean nothing but text being posted. Brett's done a great job of posting videos and images showing off what is running in the engine right now.No one is trying to talk you into anything. We are posting an offer, which is a generous one. Those who take us up on that offer are going to grab something great at a reduced value earlier and cheaper than future purchasers.
#179
03/22/2009 (3:17 pm)
That's good to know Josh, I've got an MSI Wind and would like to target those types of users as well as average web user who may not have high graphic settings. 
#180
03/22/2009 (3:47 pm)
Well, that is something that i would like Micheal Perry or Brett to maybe touch on. It does get stealthly ignored. AI and Physics. Can someone specifically address what and where these will be addressed.. If its a AI genre package so be it.. but I have seen those questions being skirted here and before. Particularly with, we are waiting till after wards or its not done yet. the release date is what 2 days away.. lets see the cards..
Torque 3D Owner Steve Way
Default Studio Name
Also, I am mildly disappointed about the price points, considering many of the cool functionality offered by the mod packs/kits are not included and may drive your total licensing fees for a pro license much higher. Having a strong community, I hoped that GG would recognize the contributions of the community to improving Torque and have facilitated the growth of the entire community. Hypothetically, with the higher price point, there will be fewer adopters of T3D Pro, which means fewer kits and add-ons sold by contributors. Just a thought anyway.