Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#362
03/26/2009 (2:02 pm)
Also will it be possible to have objective bassed gameplay as a tool or will the user have to use codes to accomplish this?
#363
Thanks
J
03/26/2009 (2:16 pm)
I also would like a hands on demo or atleast an interview with IGN or GAMETRAILERS or X-PLAY!Thanks
J
#364
03/26/2009 (2:25 pm)
I was wondering if TORQUE 3D will be able to make games on the PS3 and if not now will it someday? 
#365
these trees
With 'riwers, streams & waterfalls' I meant...
Are a stream a seperate 'waterblock' or sort of box, where you can set surface texture, zone (water) abilities, vision, gravitation, surface (texture) scrollign to allow 'stream effect', etc...
Where a purchase with no t-shirt possible.
Is there a EULA that one can see before preordering the application.
Will distribution with a custom made set of modding tools be legal.
03/26/2009 (2:33 pm)
@ brettthese trees
With 'riwers, streams & waterfalls' I meant...
Are a stream a seperate 'waterblock' or sort of box, where you can set surface texture, zone (water) abilities, vision, gravitation, surface (texture) scrollign to allow 'stream effect', etc...
Where a purchase with no t-shirt possible.
Is there a EULA that one can see before preordering the application.
Will distribution with a custom made set of modding tools be legal.
#366
Anyone have any suggestions about another game engine?
03/26/2009 (2:39 pm)
Well, as much as I'd love to purchase Torque 3D Studio, no one from sales or licensing will call me. I've sent 4 emails over the last 4 days and nothing. I find it hard to believe "everyone" is out of the office and can't answer an email or pick up the phone ( I provided a phone number for them to call me ) so I guess after the thousands of dollars I've spent here ( I own commercial versions ofall the engines and most add ons ) Garage Games no longer wants my money.Anyone have any suggestions about another game engine?
#367
03/26/2009 (2:40 pm)
@Chris: GDC has been going on this week, so most of the people who would respond to that are gone at GDC. I'm sure they're checking their e-mail as much as possible though please give them a day or two to respond to you :)
#368
03/26/2009 (2:44 pm)
@Matt: It's been 4 days, a simple email to say we'll get back to you, would have been appreciated, if not the polite thing to do. 
#369
Blessings to you.
03/26/2009 (2:50 pm)
They've been gone for at least 4 days to GDC, most of them left Sunday or Monday. If you've never been to a conference before, they are INTENSE. You spend every waking moment interacting with other developers, you're on your feet much more than most people (especially developers) are used to, and if they are at all in charge of a display booth - as I'm sure the GG people are - then they have even more responsibility on their shoulders. It's not really something where they answer email several times a day. Many people don't get time to check email AT ALL while they are at a conference, and just have to take 2-3 days to catch up when they get back. GDC is a BIG conference with thousands of people and it lasts most of a week. Just be patient. And maybe someday you'll get to go to a conference and experience the excitement first hand! Then you'll understand.Blessings to you.
#370
03/26/2009 (2:54 pm)
Really looking forward to the announcement and beta bits to play with. 
#371
I forwarded the one message that I got to licensing. I do know that a good chunk of them are at GDC answering questions about Torque 3D. Your message noted that you had tried to contact them 4 times. That is the only message that I saw in the support queue.
03/26/2009 (4:39 pm)
@ChrisI forwarded the one message that I got to licensing. I do know that a good chunk of them are at GDC answering questions about Torque 3D. Your message noted that you had tried to contact them 4 times. That is the only message that I saw in the support queue.
#372
@Sparkling: Unfortunately, I'm permanently disabled and unable to travel far at all due to my condition, so any kind of conference is mostly out of the question for me. I have sent my business partner to a few conferences that were semi-local to us ( Within the Great Lakes area )and so I do know how things work. Before I became disabled, I had experience in sales and if there is one thing I know, you always check your messages, email, etc because you might miss a sale.
I have to say, this is rather disappointing. I can see now that not much has changed in regards to the way customers are treated and communicated with. I have to say that's very sad.]
Since it's obvious Garage Games doesn't want my money and after looking through several of the responces here, I am going to check out Unity and see if it's to my liking.
03/26/2009 (5:22 pm)
@David: I sent two messages to licensing via email ( the licensing email in the Torque 3D advert/post ), two to sales via this website, and one email to Matt Fairfax asking if he could send me a phone number to contact you folks, since there is no real way to contact you folks anymore and he had mentioned they had wanted to speak to folks like me, who were considering going with Torque 3D Pro and later upgrading to Studio.@Sparkling: Unfortunately, I'm permanently disabled and unable to travel far at all due to my condition, so any kind of conference is mostly out of the question for me. I have sent my business partner to a few conferences that were semi-local to us ( Within the Great Lakes area )and so I do know how things work. Before I became disabled, I had experience in sales and if there is one thing I know, you always check your messages, email, etc because you might miss a sale.
I have to say, this is rather disappointing. I can see now that not much has changed in regards to the way customers are treated and communicated with. I have to say that's very sad.]
Since it's obvious Garage Games doesn't want my money and after looking through several of the responces here, I am going to check out Unity and see if it's to my liking.
#373
I too will be looking into unity.
03/26/2009 (5:35 pm)
I don't really like the fact that genre kits are not going to be available for the basic users. There are some of us who have spent well over 500 to GG for just stuff from the dev store and the engine. Why even have a basic ? Just scrap the basic and stay with the pro. To me it seems that a kit is almost a requirement for new people with stuff. I could be wrong though. Just my 2 cents.I too will be looking into unity.
#374
03/26/2009 (7:37 pm)
they said they might have some kits for the basic remember not everything they post is final final. also remember GG don't build these kits ether others do so its up to them if they want to spend all that extra time for basic members of T3D.
#375
We're not a big company when it comes to either licensing or sales, and I can just about guarantee that your emails are gathered together with hundreds of other emails--after all, not only are you sending them just like everyone else interested in additional information just after the announcement, but you're sending them right in the middle of the largest conference of the year.
With all due respect, please consider giving us a week to process the hundreds of emails and multiple hundreds of contacts being made over this week...I'm sure that once GDC is over, the entire licensing/sales staff (both of them!) will have time to address your questions.
03/26/2009 (9:52 pm)
@Chris: Every single person you've mentioned in your email is at GDC, spending 18-20 hours a day working the booths, making contact with the conference attendees during down time, and trying to grab some sleep between shifts.We're not a big company when it comes to either licensing or sales, and I can just about guarantee that your emails are gathered together with hundreds of other emails--after all, not only are you sending them just like everyone else interested in additional information just after the announcement, but you're sending them right in the middle of the largest conference of the year.
With all due respect, please consider giving us a week to process the hundreds of emails and multiple hundreds of contacts being made over this week...I'm sure that once GDC is over, the entire licensing/sales staff (both of them!) will have time to address your questions.
#376
I should have seen both of the ones that went to sales. I only saw one and it mentioned that you had sent four already. I'll see what I can do. The people that I send licensing requests like this are at GDC right now and answering questions on the floor.
My biggest gripe with Unity is that I've had a support ticket open since Feb 2nd and haven't heard back on it. Well, I did hear back at the end of Feb to submit more information, which I did that day, including opening another ticket with their in-engine support submission. Since then, silence. I like Unity. I like the people behind it. But it bricks my G5, making it impossible to debug in a production environment where support is necessary.
03/26/2009 (9:52 pm)
@ChrisI should have seen both of the ones that went to sales. I only saw one and it mentioned that you had sent four already. I'll see what I can do. The people that I send licensing requests like this are at GDC right now and answering questions on the floor.
My biggest gripe with Unity is that I've had a support ticket open since Feb 2nd and haven't heard back on it. Well, I did hear back at the end of Feb to submit more information, which I did that day, including opening another ticket with their in-engine support submission. Since then, silence. I like Unity. I like the people behind it. But it bricks my G5, making it impossible to debug in a production environment where support is necessary.
#377
03/27/2009 (12:47 am)
One more question from a Torque noob. Is the base of the engine the same in say TGB and T3D. The thing I am thinking about is the networking which looks really simple to use after looking through the TGB docs. One concern aswell, heard something about you had to start your singleplayer games with a client and server is this true for T3D?
#378
My main concern about moving forward with Torque 3d is that is still based off of the old c++ code. I'm not putting Torque down as I have purchased and preorder everything torque has released.
I am playing around with Unity 2.5 and I must say it's real nice. So do I spend $505.00 on Torque3d and put off buying Unity 2.5 or buy Unity 2.5 and move away for Torque all together.
Also when can we expect a nice update on the itorque?
03/27/2009 (7:37 am)
In all honesty can someone who has played around with Torque 3d and Unity 2.5 give a honest comparison. My main concern about moving forward with Torque 3d is that is still based off of the old c++ code. I'm not putting Torque down as I have purchased and preorder everything torque has released.
I am playing around with Unity 2.5 and I must say it's real nice. So do I spend $505.00 on Torque3d and put off buying Unity 2.5 or buy Unity 2.5 and move away for Torque all together.
Also when can we expect a nice update on the itorque?
#379
the cloth in T3D i think will blow everyone's minds out of there head. :P
03/27/2009 (1:04 pm)
well i hear alot of unity people are now going back to torque at lest thats what they are saying in GDC. i cant compare torque 3d no one else can but the ones that are using torque 3d and thats only the engine makers/kit makers. you will have to wait till beta is out next month be for you can get a real good look at it. maybe when those GDC videos are on vemo that might help tell you if you want to stick with torque or not.the cloth in T3D i think will blow everyone's minds out of there head. :P
#380
I think both T3D and Unity are very good game engines. However, the choice is simple for me, I have 4 years of experience using Torque and 0 with Unity which will always keep a large plus on the Torque side of things.
It also has to do with your expectations. Neither engine has a 'Make Game' button.
03/27/2009 (1:10 pm)
@EricI think both T3D and Unity are very good game engines. However, the choice is simple for me, I have 4 years of experience using Torque and 0 with Unity which will always keep a large plus on the Torque side of things.
It also has to do with your expectations. Neither engine has a 'Make Game' button.
J
Thanks J