A new Game Engine in the works
by Anthony · 03/14/2009 (1:49 pm) · 33 comments
Yes, that is right, so obviously my team and I disagree with GG on pricing, as well as what is good for the indie community. So we have began work on a completely new, Game Engine. I will list out what we are already working on:
Rendering
Using tools that are already out there, we have many features, plus some that you guys are already drooling over:
- SSAO
- Soft Particles
- BOTH DirectX and OpenGL Shader support.
- Depth of Field
- HDR
- God Rays
- Etc.
World Management
- In-Game World editor, that we are making multiplayer compatible (so multiple people can work on any given level at any given time).
- Multiple Scene Managers, choose between a paging terrain manager, or the standard scene manager.
- Water system with foam, god rays underwater, as well as its own editor.
AI Support Built In
Unlike GG we feel there are a good amount of features we can include that are commonly used.
- Grid Based Pathfinding (A* + Object avoidance)
- Ability to mark objects as cover (flaggable), for advanced AI functionality.
- Engine will include sample FPS game with AI you can build from as well, that can do things such as hide, flock, flank, take cover, aggressive, passive, as well as be goal oriented. These things will work for many different styles of games (racing, fps, rts).
Multiplayer
- No set player limit
- Master Server included, as well as the rights to use our master server
- Optional Lobby system built in
- Optional Matchmaking system built in (game logic will also include skill levels per player that you can choose to use or not)
Browser Plugin
The game engine will include a browser plugin, with an option to also have your game included in our online game center.
Many of these features are well on their way to being complete, and many of them still need a bit of work to get right. I would love to post some screens but one of our key missing components in our team is a good 3d artist, so once we get some good content in that can actually utilize the back-end efforts being made you can rest assured you will get to see some pics.
Rendering
Using tools that are already out there, we have many features, plus some that you guys are already drooling over:
- SSAO
- Soft Particles
- BOTH DirectX and OpenGL Shader support.
- Depth of Field
- HDR
- God Rays
- Etc.
World Management
- In-Game World editor, that we are making multiplayer compatible (so multiple people can work on any given level at any given time).
- Multiple Scene Managers, choose between a paging terrain manager, or the standard scene manager.
- Water system with foam, god rays underwater, as well as its own editor.
AI Support Built In
Unlike GG we feel there are a good amount of features we can include that are commonly used.
- Grid Based Pathfinding (A* + Object avoidance)
- Ability to mark objects as cover (flaggable), for advanced AI functionality.
- Engine will include sample FPS game with AI you can build from as well, that can do things such as hide, flock, flank, take cover, aggressive, passive, as well as be goal oriented. These things will work for many different styles of games (racing, fps, rts).
Multiplayer
- No set player limit
- Master Server included, as well as the rights to use our master server
- Optional Lobby system built in
- Optional Matchmaking system built in (game logic will also include skill levels per player that you can choose to use or not)
Browser Plugin
The game engine will include a browser plugin, with an option to also have your game included in our online game center.
Many of these features are well on their way to being complete, and many of them still need a bit of work to get right. I would love to post some screens but one of our key missing components in our team is a good 3d artist, so once we get some good content in that can actually utilize the back-end efforts being made you can rest assured you will get to see some pics.
About the author
#22
To be brutally honest though I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. What the market doesn't need is another indie level game engine with the exact same feature set of Torque, Unity, etc.. We have all seen it, there are at least 10 good indie level engines already on the market and another one will just be another nothing special release no one will care about. You're really just spinning your wheels needlessly to fall into the typical developer line of "well im sure I can make it better" and "lets make it like X but with more shiney objects" software development.
So instead of creating your 'Dream version Torque' because you are all upset about how GarageGames chooses to run their business, why don't you guys focus your attention towards making something that the market could actually use like a specialized engine for say an up and coming system like Android or the iPhone or more XNA tools for 360 development or TabletPCs. There is a huge market for this kind of stuff that is really untapped.
I apoligize if you or anyone else takes this as an offensive post, but I am trying to just be really honest her has an experianced industry vet and a businessman (plus your post came across as incredibly arrogent and ill-placed here on the GG site, so you do need to be knocked down a few pegs). I am not saying you won't succeed with making an engine, I am simply saying pick a smarter war and battle that you can win and that will benefit you and your team in the long run.
Best of luck though.
03/15/2009 (12:22 am)
Wow this seems really ambitious project. To be brutally honest though I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. What the market doesn't need is another indie level game engine with the exact same feature set of Torque, Unity, etc.. We have all seen it, there are at least 10 good indie level engines already on the market and another one will just be another nothing special release no one will care about. You're really just spinning your wheels needlessly to fall into the typical developer line of "well im sure I can make it better" and "lets make it like X but with more shiney objects" software development.
So instead of creating your 'Dream version Torque' because you are all upset about how GarageGames chooses to run their business, why don't you guys focus your attention towards making something that the market could actually use like a specialized engine for say an up and coming system like Android or the iPhone or more XNA tools for 360 development or TabletPCs. There is a huge market for this kind of stuff that is really untapped.
I apoligize if you or anyone else takes this as an offensive post, but I am trying to just be really honest her has an experianced industry vet and a businessman (plus your post came across as incredibly arrogent and ill-placed here on the GG site, so you do need to be knocked down a few pegs). I am not saying you won't succeed with making an engine, I am simply saying pick a smarter war and battle that you can win and that will benefit you and your team in the long run.
Best of luck though.
#23
03/15/2009 (12:40 am)
variety is good. Keep your options open even if you only use the engine for your own games, which may over time become an engine for others. We've used many engines for different projects, and we chose Torque as our first and primary engine over others. There are other engines that are becoming more windows orientated, and people will always have their preferred choice, but will end up going back to an engine that they have used in the past just to see what's new and improved. Good luck with it, and over time it could well be up there! 
#24
i would not mind building a engine that best fits my needs but i rather save the time of building the engine its why i own torque. there is a engine out there thats almost quite perfect for my needs but at 950k price tag its a little to high for me. :P its called Hero Engine i asked gg to put some stuff that that engine has in T3D. i don't expect them to be put in but gg engines i can afford and i like what they are doing for T3D. i will continue to stay with them till i ether have 950k or gg T3D gets as good as these high cost engines for a lower price.
03/15/2009 (1:51 am)
well all these people are saying build it off torque i think just keep building your engine lots of company's build there engine anyway. no engine is perfect for any company so most company's build there engine the way they want it. you can release it to the people for all i care but don't expect many to buy just manly build the engine for your own team and what best fits for your needs.i would not mind building a engine that best fits my needs but i rather save the time of building the engine its why i own torque. there is a engine out there thats almost quite perfect for my needs but at 950k price tag its a little to high for me. :P its called Hero Engine i asked gg to put some stuff that that engine has in T3D. i don't expect them to be put in but gg engines i can afford and i like what they are doing for T3D. i will continue to stay with them till i ether have 950k or gg T3D gets as good as these high cost engines for a lower price.
#26
03/15/2009 (5:48 pm)
@Anthony - Instead of having to start completely from scratch, have you considered using an off-the-shelf game engine framework?
#27
@Logan: I would almost completely agree that there are too many indie options out there, and there are better places to be building things for. We are doing what we are doing because there is a need, and although we don't plan on making anywhere close to a living with the engine itself, we are surely using it as a statement.
Once the engine is complete, we will start work on a product using it, which is another reason we are going the "build it ourselves" route.
Not to mention you guys in the GG community should benefit as I plan on porting a few of the resources from our engine over as resources for Torque or possibly T3D depending on the timing.
03/16/2009 (1:13 pm)
@Tony: We are utilizing some tools out there that have definitely sped things up a great deal.@Logan: I would almost completely agree that there are too many indie options out there, and there are better places to be building things for. We are doing what we are doing because there is a need, and although we don't plan on making anywhere close to a living with the engine itself, we are surely using it as a statement.
Once the engine is complete, we will start work on a product using it, which is another reason we are going the "build it ourselves" route.
Not to mention you guys in the GG community should benefit as I plan on porting a few of the resources from our engine over as resources for Torque or possibly T3D depending on the timing.
#28
What the market needs is a decent sub-$300 game engine for individuals who want to create their own games that may or may not succeed. If GarageGames goes with a $1000 price point, that is not a "garage" price. It's a small-size-company price. Frankly, they should drop "garage" from "GarageGames" if they decide to go that route.
"We have all seen it, there are at least 10 good indie level engines already on the market and another one will just be another nothing special release no one will care about."
That's exactly what Torque is in extreme danger of becoming if they go the higher-price route and go around copying the rest of the industry. Just another bland engine that is indistinguishable from everybody else.
"I apoligize if you or anyone else takes this as an offensive post,"
Not at all. I just think that GarageGames is pretty much wiping away everything from their business model that makes them unique. Why buy Torque over anything else if all Torque is going to be is a copy of everybody else?
03/20/2009 (4:26 pm)
"To be brutally honest though I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. What the market doesn't need is another indie level game engine with the exact same feature set of Torque, Unity, etc.."What the market needs is a decent sub-$300 game engine for individuals who want to create their own games that may or may not succeed. If GarageGames goes with a $1000 price point, that is not a "garage" price. It's a small-size-company price. Frankly, they should drop "garage" from "GarageGames" if they decide to go that route.
"We have all seen it, there are at least 10 good indie level engines already on the market and another one will just be another nothing special release no one will care about."
That's exactly what Torque is in extreme danger of becoming if they go the higher-price route and go around copying the rest of the industry. Just another bland engine that is indistinguishable from everybody else.
"I apoligize if you or anyone else takes this as an offensive post,"
Not at all. I just think that GarageGames is pretty much wiping away everything from their business model that makes them unique. Why buy Torque over anything else if all Torque is going to be is a copy of everybody else?
#29
I don't see how price will cause blandness, though. That logic is a little fuzzy to me. I thought lack of features or no new tech would cause an engine to be bland.
03/20/2009 (7:10 pm)
So we should just be called "Games"? I think that name is already taken =/I don't see how price will cause blandness, though. That logic is a little fuzzy to me. I thought lack of features or no new tech would cause an engine to be bland.
#30
I completely 100% vehemently disagree... and so do other industry experts.
I've quoted this before and I'll quote it again...
You can't have enough competition in this space... the more choices we have for game middleware, including game clients that compete with Torque, the better off we are as Indies.
Absolutely no game engine can be everything for everyone. It's simply not possible.
That is specifically why I have chosen to go the route I have gone and wrote a game engine framework... it makes it so that it's lowers the difficulty level for people wanting to make their own game engines.
It's a shame people like Anthony don't realize what a gem the Zen frameworks really are and the fact that it's FOSS and not copy-left, so they can use it to make their own game engine and sell it commercially, no strings attached.... that's probably my fault for not "advertising" it enough.
$1000 is a great price point for someone who knows they're going to succeed, and in general T3D Pro is targeted at professionals who have already published one or more games.
$1000 stinks for most hobbyists (i.e. your "garage" guys)... but I think that was the point.
$250 is a great "garage" price and I also think that was the point.
Personally I think GG did a fantastic job in choosing their pricing model.
03/21/2009 (8:26 am)
Quote:To be brutally honest though I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. What the market doesn't need is another indie level game engine with the exact same feature set of Torque, Unity, etc..
I completely 100% vehemently disagree... and so do other industry experts.
I've quoted this before and I'll quote it again...
Quote:To (Richard) Bartle, the keys to creativity are the variety of design tools available (“There’s too much similarity if we all use the same tools”) and the willingness of the developer to stray from the out-of-the-box middleware features (“The more you do yourself, the more different your game will be, and the fewer design constraints you’ll have.”).
You can't have enough competition in this space... the more choices we have for game middleware, including game clients that compete with Torque, the better off we are as Indies.
Absolutely no game engine can be everything for everyone. It's simply not possible.
That is specifically why I have chosen to go the route I have gone and wrote a game engine framework... it makes it so that it's lowers the difficulty level for people wanting to make their own game engines.
It's a shame people like Anthony don't realize what a gem the Zen frameworks really are and the fact that it's FOSS and not copy-left, so they can use it to make their own game engine and sell it commercially, no strings attached.... that's probably my fault for not "advertising" it enough.
Quote:What the market needs is a decent sub-$300 game engine for individuals who want to create their own games that may or may not succeed. If GarageGames goes with a $1000 price point, that is not a "garage" price. It's a small-size-company price. Frankly, they should drop "garage" from "GarageGames" if they decide to go that route.
$1000 is a great price point for someone who knows they're going to succeed, and in general T3D Pro is targeted at professionals who have already published one or more games.
$1000 stinks for most hobbyists (i.e. your "garage" guys)... but I think that was the point.
$250 is a great "garage" price and I also think that was the point.
Personally I think GG did a fantastic job in choosing their pricing model.
#31
I also agree, variety is key. We don't think we are going to get rich from building a game engine, or even sell hundreds of copies, but we do plan to offer a choice and a clear message.
03/21/2009 (6:21 pm)
@Tony: We are definitely taking advantage of frameworks out there, without them we couldn't have gotten as far as we have.I also agree, variety is key. We don't think we are going to get rich from building a game engine, or even sell hundreds of copies, but we do plan to offer a choice and a clear message.
#32
A $1000 pricing is more in line with larger engines with larger tool sets and more features. No $250 engine could compete with Torque - but a $1000 engine might. GarageGames is pricing themselves right into the crosshairs of other larger engines.
"$1000 is a great price point for someone who knows they're going to succeed"
That's pretty much the problem right there. Very few people making new games know they are going to succeed. The best ideas come from failing, and failing often - and every once in a while, a little gem pops up and succeeds. That's where the absolute best, most original games come from.
The $1000 market is essentially the "sequel" market for indie developers. It's not a market for new games - it's a market for the new games that succeeded and need a sequel. "Someone who knows they're going to succeed" is basically somebody who needs a sequel.
But guess what? Before a sequel is made, the original has to come from somewhere. If there's no engine for first attempts, then innovation is going to dry up. How do you expect to have sequels if you disallow first attempts? GarageGames was a very nice engine for first attempts - what is to replace it if they kill it?
03/21/2009 (9:13 pm)
"I don't see how price will cause blandness, though."A $1000 pricing is more in line with larger engines with larger tool sets and more features. No $250 engine could compete with Torque - but a $1000 engine might. GarageGames is pricing themselves right into the crosshairs of other larger engines.
"$1000 is a great price point for someone who knows they're going to succeed"
That's pretty much the problem right there. Very few people making new games know they are going to succeed. The best ideas come from failing, and failing often - and every once in a while, a little gem pops up and succeeds. That's where the absolute best, most original games come from.
The $1000 market is essentially the "sequel" market for indie developers. It's not a market for new games - it's a market for the new games that succeeded and need a sequel. "Someone who knows they're going to succeed" is basically somebody who needs a sequel.
But guess what? Before a sequel is made, the original has to come from somewhere. If there's no engine for first attempts, then innovation is going to dry up. How do you expect to have sequels if you disallow first attempts? GarageGames was a very nice engine for first attempts - what is to replace it if they kill it?
#33
Possibly you might consider joining forces instead of doing it on your own.
Our game engine framework is currently in beta testing, with several completed game clients and now we're focusing on RPG, RTS and MMO middleware and continuing with our tools.
The core of the framework is a flexible plugin system that allows you to mix and match components.
We have plugins for Lua, Python, Ogre3d, OIS (input), MySQL, SQLite, PostgresQL, FMOD, OpenAL, MicroPather (for A* pathfinding)... well, the list can go on for quite awhile so I'll stop there.
It's cross platform (Mac OS X, Linux, Windows XP and Vista).
You can take this framework, use our engines and starter kits as examples, add your own features and do whatever you want with it.... make games, or add more features and sell your own middleware solutions.
We will benefit from contributing to common code, and the cross pollination of ideas, yet we still have the freedom to do what we will with the final code.
@Jeremiah - You shouldn't worry about Torque going tits up... There are plenty of game engine clients that are cheaper and better than T3D. They just don't have GG's marketing budget so you have to search for them to find 'em.
03/21/2009 (10:17 pm)
@Anthony - Possibly you might consider joining forces instead of doing it on your own.
Our game engine framework is currently in beta testing, with several completed game clients and now we're focusing on RPG, RTS and MMO middleware and continuing with our tools.
The core of the framework is a flexible plugin system that allows you to mix and match components.
We have plugins for Lua, Python, Ogre3d, OIS (input), MySQL, SQLite, PostgresQL, FMOD, OpenAL, MicroPather (for A* pathfinding)... well, the list can go on for quite awhile so I'll stop there.
It's cross platform (Mac OS X, Linux, Windows XP and Vista).
You can take this framework, use our engines and starter kits as examples, add your own features and do whatever you want with it.... make games, or add more features and sell your own middleware solutions.
We will benefit from contributing to common code, and the cross pollination of ideas, yet we still have the freedom to do what we will with the final code.
@Jeremiah - You shouldn't worry about Torque going tits up... There are plenty of game engine clients that are cheaper and better than T3D. They just don't have GG's marketing budget so you have to search for them to find 'em.
Torque 3D Owner Will Zettler
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