Who Handed Garage Games The Crack Pipe?
by Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr · 01/25/2009 (12:30 am) · 59 comments
The reason my answer has been consistently "Torque" is;
Simple engine - it's pretty easy for someone who doesn't know a lot yet to get started. Sure, you won't be doing the most advanced game development the first day, but it's fast to get up to speed for "little things" and ideas.
Lots of power - Once you kick off the training wheels and get away from the tutorials, there's a buttload of power behind the Torque engine!
Low Cost Entry - An indie license for Torque is dirt cheap. This has the advantage of, well, just being cheap, but it also means that if anyone wants to try and play around outside of the defined boundaries of successful established game styles you're not out much.
No Per-Title Fees - Which means even if you only got a small following for your nitche game, hey, turning around and doing it again isn't going to cost you anything more.
Focus On Getting A Game Done - Rather than tie yourself up dealing with thing like engine development, focus on what's important - getting a game completed. I didn't always agree with Jeff Tunnell on a number of things, but he had one thing right - finish a game and release it.
There's actually quite a few other reasons why I'm a fan, but, that's the big reasons why I pimp the engine, and have since, what? 2001? 2002? And I've had a very "Gotta Buy 'Em All!" attitude too - grudgingly, I've bought TGE, T2D (er, TGB), Torque Lighting Kit, The TGE Upgrade, and... well, just about anything except the console engines, and TGEA (mainly because at the time good Shader support wasn't that important.)
I've been fielding a few questions from people lately that included iPhone - and I had heard of Garage Games adding iPhone support, so I continued to throw people at the Torque setup.
I own an iPhone, love my iPhone, and I'm wanting to do a little bit of "experimental" game development - see what cool ass stuff I could do with accelerometer + multitouch + Torque. In particular, I had this wicked idea for transforming my old Boulder Panic! titles into something completely new - but it's experemental because the game could very easily become WAY too hard to play. But I already own the various Torque licenses, know the tech, and, well, I've been a bit of a fanboy of the engine for quite a while.
So I stop by here, and check out how much I'll be shelling out for yet another GG engine. I already own my iPhone dev license, so, this shouldn't be too bad.
Torque Game Builder for iPhone (iTGB) Indie End User License Agreement (EULA) $500 Per Seat, Per Project License
Are You FUCKING shitting me?
$500 wasn't too steep - that I expected. $500 PER PROJECT? Uh, no. Actually, let me take that a little further. Not no, but HELL NO.
This is the first time I've seen full-on greed coming from Garage Games. Things have previously showed a good ballance between "We gotta make money" and "We gotta consider the interests of the Indies" (lets face it, for bigger corporate customers, $1000+ licensing fees for a title is almost nothing quite often) But this time? It's more like "OOOohhhh - the iPhone is HOT! I bet we can really bend 'em over the table for this!"
$500 per title is not Indie development anymore. It's no longer accessible to anyone who's looking to "break into it", or try experimental stuff. Now it's just another engine, and there are now a lot of those about. Oddly enough, there's already a couple of other engines that are iPhone ready that don't charge per title, so that can't be the excuse. Actually, there's no real excuse for the pricing, just a case of trying to suck as much money out of customers as possible. They see the iPhone, and the Garage Games customer base that might use it as a gold rush for quick cash.
Please, someone take the crack pipe outta the hands of the GG marketing guys, look back at where GG came from, and the folks who advocated the engine, and the community who became built around that engine. Then ask - is the pricing right for that community? I maintain the answer is a solid NO. Drop per project bit - flat fee that sucker.
Heck, give the guys who've already licensed nearly everything a big ol' price break while you're at it! (OK, it was my turn to puff on the crack pipe a bit - sorry about that.)
Now, having said a few very inflammatory things there, and insulting at least a few people in management :-), I do have a couple of good things to say:
Ya know, looking back - good God, it's amazing that Torque is still kickin', Garage Games is still around, and while part of the community has moved on, there's still a lot of faces here, and some of them are still "good ol' days" faces. I think my first license was in 2001, though I'm not positive - for an engine and a company to be viable for this long? Well, dispite my cursing and distain for the iPhone licensing solution they chose, it's pretty damned impressive. And the tech hasn't gone completely stale. Ya'lls still get kudos and all that for makin' a company about supporting Indie game development last this long!
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr
Midnight Ryder Technologies
(Oh, check out my new blog / podcast if ya' want ;-)
Author,
[url=http://www.gamerzonecenters.com]The Story of Gamer Zone[url]
(BTW - the book formatted version, which has a LOT of cleaned up content is about to be released. I'll be posting on here when it is, along with all the old World of Gamer Zone TV series DVD's :-)
Simple engine - it's pretty easy for someone who doesn't know a lot yet to get started. Sure, you won't be doing the most advanced game development the first day, but it's fast to get up to speed for "little things" and ideas.
Lots of power - Once you kick off the training wheels and get away from the tutorials, there's a buttload of power behind the Torque engine!
Low Cost Entry - An indie license for Torque is dirt cheap. This has the advantage of, well, just being cheap, but it also means that if anyone wants to try and play around outside of the defined boundaries of successful established game styles you're not out much.
No Per-Title Fees - Which means even if you only got a small following for your nitche game, hey, turning around and doing it again isn't going to cost you anything more.
Focus On Getting A Game Done - Rather than tie yourself up dealing with thing like engine development, focus on what's important - getting a game completed. I didn't always agree with Jeff Tunnell on a number of things, but he had one thing right - finish a game and release it.
There's actually quite a few other reasons why I'm a fan, but, that's the big reasons why I pimp the engine, and have since, what? 2001? 2002? And I've had a very "Gotta Buy 'Em All!" attitude too - grudgingly, I've bought TGE, T2D (er, TGB), Torque Lighting Kit, The TGE Upgrade, and... well, just about anything except the console engines, and TGEA (mainly because at the time good Shader support wasn't that important.)
I've been fielding a few questions from people lately that included iPhone - and I had heard of Garage Games adding iPhone support, so I continued to throw people at the Torque setup.
I own an iPhone, love my iPhone, and I'm wanting to do a little bit of "experimental" game development - see what cool ass stuff I could do with accelerometer + multitouch + Torque. In particular, I had this wicked idea for transforming my old Boulder Panic! titles into something completely new - but it's experemental because the game could very easily become WAY too hard to play. But I already own the various Torque licenses, know the tech, and, well, I've been a bit of a fanboy of the engine for quite a while.
So I stop by here, and check out how much I'll be shelling out for yet another GG engine. I already own my iPhone dev license, so, this shouldn't be too bad.
Torque Game Builder for iPhone (iTGB) Indie End User License Agreement (EULA) $500 Per Seat, Per Project License
Are You FUCKING shitting me?
$500 wasn't too steep - that I expected. $500 PER PROJECT? Uh, no. Actually, let me take that a little further. Not no, but HELL NO.
This is the first time I've seen full-on greed coming from Garage Games. Things have previously showed a good ballance between "We gotta make money" and "We gotta consider the interests of the Indies" (lets face it, for bigger corporate customers, $1000+ licensing fees for a title is almost nothing quite often) But this time? It's more like "OOOohhhh - the iPhone is HOT! I bet we can really bend 'em over the table for this!"
$500 per title is not Indie development anymore. It's no longer accessible to anyone who's looking to "break into it", or try experimental stuff. Now it's just another engine, and there are now a lot of those about. Oddly enough, there's already a couple of other engines that are iPhone ready that don't charge per title, so that can't be the excuse. Actually, there's no real excuse for the pricing, just a case of trying to suck as much money out of customers as possible. They see the iPhone, and the Garage Games customer base that might use it as a gold rush for quick cash.
Please, someone take the crack pipe outta the hands of the GG marketing guys, look back at where GG came from, and the folks who advocated the engine, and the community who became built around that engine. Then ask - is the pricing right for that community? I maintain the answer is a solid NO. Drop per project bit - flat fee that sucker.
Heck, give the guys who've already licensed nearly everything a big ol' price break while you're at it! (OK, it was my turn to puff on the crack pipe a bit - sorry about that.)
Now, having said a few very inflammatory things there, and insulting at least a few people in management :-), I do have a couple of good things to say:
Ya know, looking back - good God, it's amazing that Torque is still kickin', Garage Games is still around, and while part of the community has moved on, there's still a lot of faces here, and some of them are still "good ol' days" faces. I think my first license was in 2001, though I'm not positive - for an engine and a company to be viable for this long? Well, dispite my cursing and distain for the iPhone licensing solution they chose, it's pretty damned impressive. And the tech hasn't gone completely stale. Ya'lls still get kudos and all that for makin' a company about supporting Indie game development last this long!
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr
Midnight Ryder Technologies
(Oh, check out my new blog / podcast if ya' want ;-)
Author,
[url=http://www.gamerzonecenters.com]The Story of Gamer Zone[url]
(BTW - the book formatted version, which has a LOT of cleaned up content is about to be released. I'll be posting on here when it is, along with all the old World of Gamer Zone TV series DVD's :-)
#42
01/25/2009 (4:35 pm)
Ok, I think that is enough PC vs Mac slinging around here. It is off topic from what was (I am only speculating) ment to be about the per project licensing of iTorque. 
#43
01/25/2009 (4:37 pm)
Amen to that Thomas :) 
#44
I'm programming at home on a $15 Belkin split keyboard I got 6 years ago. Admittedly, the mouse was somewhat more, but I didn't pay for it (perk of old job), and before that I was using a $12 MS laser mouse. At work, everyone but me IS using a $10ish keyboard....
I don't use wireless LAN cards in desktop computers. Ever, unless it's built into the mobo and I can't use a wired connection for some reason. Hell, the mobo I picked probably has WLAN.
What sort of "repair warranty" are you talking about? Accidental/intentional damage? Yeah sure Newegg doesn't cover that. I don't think Apple covers 100% for accidental/intentional damage do they? If so, it still doesn't change the fact that the thing is still a grand more expensive than a better equipped PC.
If Apple even offered a rig equivalent of an expensive PC gaming rig, then it'd be probably $1000-2000 more. They don't, so yeah I can't find one :)
Edit: Who is PC vs. Mac-ing here? I certainly am not. I am merely replying to people that have segwayed my comparison between "indie friendly" and "not indie friendly" for the purposes of illustrating that GG's license for iTorque is consistent (given the relative cost of entry for iPhone dev) to their other engines.
01/25/2009 (4:43 pm)
Quote:The difference in price between a 8800 and a 9800 is like $30, you can barely get a cheap mouse for that, and you thought that made up for all of the other stuff? BTW, if you buy an iMac from an Apple store you can get them to upgrade the video card.Except I added another $200 for a better monitor, OS and a DVD drive. So no I don't think it makes up for it. You apparently didn't read very carefully. Yes, a Windows license is $100 (I don't use Vista, so XP), DVD drive (burner even) is ~$20 (NOT $100 wtf XD) and a bigger monitor would run $100ish more than what I put in there. So, instead I add I guess $280. So it's $780 vs. $1800.
I'm programming at home on a $15 Belkin split keyboard I got 6 years ago. Admittedly, the mouse was somewhat more, but I didn't pay for it (perk of old job), and before that I was using a $12 MS laser mouse. At work, everyone but me IS using a $10ish keyboard....
I don't use wireless LAN cards in desktop computers. Ever, unless it's built into the mobo and I can't use a wired connection for some reason. Hell, the mobo I picked probably has WLAN.
What sort of "repair warranty" are you talking about? Accidental/intentional damage? Yeah sure Newegg doesn't cover that. I don't think Apple covers 100% for accidental/intentional damage do they? If so, it still doesn't change the fact that the thing is still a grand more expensive than a better equipped PC.
If Apple even offered a rig equivalent of an expensive PC gaming rig, then it'd be probably $1000-2000 more. They don't, so yeah I can't find one :)
Edit: Who is PC vs. Mac-ing here? I certainly am not. I am merely replying to people that have segwayed my comparison between "indie friendly" and "not indie friendly" for the purposes of illustrating that GG's license for iTorque is consistent (given the relative cost of entry for iPhone dev) to their other engines.
#45
Same applies here. The barrier for entry, hardware wise, is meaningless when you already have the hardware at hand. Simple - that removes the question of hardware from the debate, and hopefully, removes you from the debate too. You've shown in a previous thread you've got a hard on against Apple and it's products / policies - I initiated a discourse on a particular facet of Garage Games pricing policy concerning Apple based hardware. If you don't like Apple - that's perfectly fine, I like the stuff, and like PC's still. Windows run's great in a VM session :-) But turning it into a very anti-Apple flame fest? Forget it, it *IS* outside of the scope of the discussion, 'specially since you like to try and find the most extreme cases (for instance, iPhone -vs- iPod Touch, things like that.) Start your own thread for anti-Apple hate fests. The rest of us will have a discussion about the fact that this seems to be a sign of change within the GG policies. Where, you know, we don't try keep beating the same dead horse.
Joe: I gotta agree. The "Hobbyists" and the "Dreamers" were contributors, sometimes good, sometimes bad, to the community, and to the engine. But getting paid for it? Naw, gotta disagree. Back then we ALL contributed to the community or to the engine as a sort of love for it - we had it, we like the community, we loved exploring the engine, and since others contributed, we all contributed. And yeah, new people who came after us essentially made GG money from what was contributed. I'm perfectly all right with that - though, I do feel a bit of a sense of entitlement from it (but that's just 'cause I'm a jerk that way ;-)
Thomas: Agreed. You predate me by a couple years, but yeah, without those who adopted it during the V12 days, I'm sure it would have been stone dead.
Caylo: Eh - don't really agree with raising the barrier to remove part of the community. Yes, there have always been whiney buggers who didn't contribute, asked the same questions over and over, and generally were a nusance. But ya know, not of all 'em have historically been kids, or people without cash. And not all kids were nusances. Unless you REALLY increase the price, like say, above the $5k range, you'll still end up with whiners, nusances, and morons sometimes. And even then... well, there are some professional devs that are STILL those things to this day. An IQ test might be better barrier for entry if you want to weed out people - but really, even that would remove some people who had enough ambition and drive to finish games, 'cause it doesn't even come down to brains sometimes, it's about personality and drive! :-)
(Not to anyone in particular) I'm sad to see the founders move on. While Jeff Tunnell and I didn't see eye to eye on occasion, he's the guy who contacted me and told me I should check out Torque when I was getting opinions on the SWEng-GameDev list. Honestly, I have no idea who's left anymore - I recognize Joe Marchauk and Josh Williams, and that's about it from the Management section of the pages (and I don't see a list of Employees and Associates on here anymore, but it's a new layout :-) And I saw that Melv May is an employee now - well, at least there's two "old schoolers" there :-)
01/25/2009 (4:45 pm)
Ross: And I have to humbly... wait, I'm never humble. I completely disagree with you - a PC at one time couldn't have been considered "Indie Friendly" because of the costs. If you were going to break into the field of game development... well, you were SOL unless you already owned one of those ugly beige boxes (glad those have gone away ;-) More often than not, game from indies were written by people that owned one for other reasons already.Same applies here. The barrier for entry, hardware wise, is meaningless when you already have the hardware at hand. Simple - that removes the question of hardware from the debate, and hopefully, removes you from the debate too. You've shown in a previous thread you've got a hard on against Apple and it's products / policies - I initiated a discourse on a particular facet of Garage Games pricing policy concerning Apple based hardware. If you don't like Apple - that's perfectly fine, I like the stuff, and like PC's still. Windows run's great in a VM session :-) But turning it into a very anti-Apple flame fest? Forget it, it *IS* outside of the scope of the discussion, 'specially since you like to try and find the most extreme cases (for instance, iPhone -vs- iPod Touch, things like that.) Start your own thread for anti-Apple hate fests. The rest of us will have a discussion about the fact that this seems to be a sign of change within the GG policies. Where, you know, we don't try keep beating the same dead horse.
Joe: I gotta agree. The "Hobbyists" and the "Dreamers" were contributors, sometimes good, sometimes bad, to the community, and to the engine. But getting paid for it? Naw, gotta disagree. Back then we ALL contributed to the community or to the engine as a sort of love for it - we had it, we like the community, we loved exploring the engine, and since others contributed, we all contributed. And yeah, new people who came after us essentially made GG money from what was contributed. I'm perfectly all right with that - though, I do feel a bit of a sense of entitlement from it (but that's just 'cause I'm a jerk that way ;-)
Thomas: Agreed. You predate me by a couple years, but yeah, without those who adopted it during the V12 days, I'm sure it would have been stone dead.
Caylo: Eh - don't really agree with raising the barrier to remove part of the community. Yes, there have always been whiney buggers who didn't contribute, asked the same questions over and over, and generally were a nusance. But ya know, not of all 'em have historically been kids, or people without cash. And not all kids were nusances. Unless you REALLY increase the price, like say, above the $5k range, you'll still end up with whiners, nusances, and morons sometimes. And even then... well, there are some professional devs that are STILL those things to this day. An IQ test might be better barrier for entry if you want to weed out people - but really, even that would remove some people who had enough ambition and drive to finish games, 'cause it doesn't even come down to brains sometimes, it's about personality and drive! :-)
(Not to anyone in particular) I'm sad to see the founders move on. While Jeff Tunnell and I didn't see eye to eye on occasion, he's the guy who contacted me and told me I should check out Torque when I was getting opinions on the SWEng-GameDev list. Honestly, I have no idea who's left anymore - I recognize Joe Marchauk and Josh Williams, and that's about it from the Management section of the pages (and I don't see a list of Employees and Associates on here anymore, but it's a new layout :-) And I saw that Melv May is an employee now - well, at least there's two "old schoolers" there :-)
#46
I think "Apple hatefest" is a little extreme given I haven't said anything other than FACTS, i.e., "A mac will run you generally about a grand more than an equivalently specced PC." which I clearly demonstrated.
Apparently, pointing out that a company's products are sold at a premium (which is *EASILY* verifiable...it took me all of 2-3 mins to get a comparable PC into a cart in Newegg) = HATEFEST!
Who was flaming? Did I call anyone names? Did I ever say "OMGZ U APPLE FANBOIZ R TEH SUK!"? I am certainly not starting a flame war here. You all seem to conveniently miss this every time I reiterate it (this time I will make sure it is clear):
I was using PC + XBLCommunity games vs. Mac + iPhone as an *example* of the differences between the costs of entering either, respectively. The costs for Mac + iPhone are much higher. Thus, I don't consider the Mac + iPhone to be "indie friendly" to begin with, and therefore think that GG's license setup for iPhone is appropriate. I also think it is appropriate given the relative cost of entry for iPhone vs. straight PC or Xbox (with TX). This *example* was made to address your initial point, which is that you think that GG's license setup for iTorque is not "indie friendly". That is to say, I agree that it is not indie friendly, but not for the same reasons you do. I think it is indie unfriendly because iPhone development in general is indie unfriendly due to the high cost of entry.
So, please take my example for what it is, merely an *E. X. A. M. P. L. E.* to illustrate that I think GG's license is appropriate relative to the greater costs of entry for iPhone development in GENERAL.
Edit: Also realize that games on iPhone are a niche. GG had to pay developers to do all the work of porting the entire engine, and thus have to make their profit back on a niche of a niche (hobbyist/indie game developers that want to make games for a niche games platform*), and thus have to charge more.
* - Most people do not buy an iPhone to play games on it. They *may* play games on it, but it's still not the primary purpose of buying it. Not to mention that after the few successes by some unknowns, the huge amount of people trying to "cash in" on iPhone games have effectively made it much harder to actually make any decent cash off the AppStore (there was an article about this recently that suggested games would need to be more "viral" to stay hot on the AppStore, since the sheer volume of stuff is so large).
01/25/2009 (4:54 pm)
@Davis, yes, but I think it's reasonable to say that people that want to make games for desktops are likely to own PCs for the other reason of "playing games" and likely not a Mac for this reason(like it or not, they don't have that many games that you don't have to boot into Windows for anyway). I noted that in my comparisons and took account of it. I gave numbers for cases with and without having to buy a new rig first. If you're buying a new rig for iPhone dev, it's going to cost you a grand more (for the same or an inferior rig) than it would if you were buying a rig for any PC related dev (not including the price of the iPhone either, which itself is very expensive).I think "Apple hatefest" is a little extreme given I haven't said anything other than FACTS, i.e., "A mac will run you generally about a grand more than an equivalently specced PC." which I clearly demonstrated.
Apparently, pointing out that a company's products are sold at a premium (which is *EASILY* verifiable...it took me all of 2-3 mins to get a comparable PC into a cart in Newegg) = HATEFEST!
Who was flaming? Did I call anyone names? Did I ever say "OMGZ U APPLE FANBOIZ R TEH SUK!"? I am certainly not starting a flame war here. You all seem to conveniently miss this every time I reiterate it (this time I will make sure it is clear):
I was using PC + XBLCommunity games vs. Mac + iPhone as an *example* of the differences between the costs of entering either, respectively. The costs for Mac + iPhone are much higher. Thus, I don't consider the Mac + iPhone to be "indie friendly" to begin with, and therefore think that GG's license setup for iPhone is appropriate. I also think it is appropriate given the relative cost of entry for iPhone vs. straight PC or Xbox (with TX). This *example* was made to address your initial point, which is that you think that GG's license setup for iTorque is not "indie friendly". That is to say, I agree that it is not indie friendly, but not for the same reasons you do. I think it is indie unfriendly because iPhone development in general is indie unfriendly due to the high cost of entry.
So, please take my example for what it is, merely an *E. X. A. M. P. L. E.* to illustrate that I think GG's license is appropriate relative to the greater costs of entry for iPhone development in GENERAL.
Edit: Also realize that games on iPhone are a niche. GG had to pay developers to do all the work of porting the entire engine, and thus have to make their profit back on a niche of a niche (hobbyist/indie game developers that want to make games for a niche games platform*), and thus have to charge more.
* - Most people do not buy an iPhone to play games on it. They *may* play games on it, but it's still not the primary purpose of buying it. Not to mention that after the few successes by some unknowns, the huge amount of people trying to "cash in" on iPhone games have effectively made it much harder to actually make any decent cash off the AppStore (there was an article about this recently that suggested games would need to be more "viral" to stay hot on the AppStore, since the sheer volume of stuff is so large).
#47
No need to include monitors or anything like that. The catch is really only at the cost of a second title ($500 versus free). There are enough free dev tools on both to get by.
My guesstimate:
iPhone: $900 + N*$500 where N = number of games you make
Xbox: $850 + M*$100 where M = number of years you're releasing games
In both cases, you can develop a prototype using just TGB (or TX) without a hardware investment. The iTGB route simply has higher risk. You can't launch a guinea pig or two to get a feel for things. You'll have to basically release a PC game, get the feedback, then decide if you think the cost is worth the risk.
Personally, I'd like to see it handled slightly differently. Let me as a TGB owner download iTGB for free, much as I can TX. Only make me pay once I have something to sell. That way, the risk for me is deferred to project completion, GG makes the same amount of money, and more folks are trying out and debugging the tools.
01/25/2009 (5:05 pm)
This cost debate is a little strange to me. A iPod touch is $200 or so. No need for a contract and an iPhone. A mac is $600 at the low end. So it's $1400 to startup on an iTGB project ($600 mac + $200 iPod + $100 fee + $500 iTGB). If you want to compare with Xbox, it's $950 to startup ($300 Xbox with HD + $100 fee + $300 PC + $250 TGB w/ src). No need to include monitors or anything like that. The catch is really only at the cost of a second title ($500 versus free). There are enough free dev tools on both to get by.
My guesstimate:
iPhone: $900 + N*$500 where N = number of games you make
Xbox: $850 + M*$100 where M = number of years you're releasing games
In both cases, you can develop a prototype using just TGB (or TX) without a hardware investment. The iTGB route simply has higher risk. You can't launch a guinea pig or two to get a feel for things. You'll have to basically release a PC game, get the feedback, then decide if you think the cost is worth the risk.
Personally, I'd like to see it handled slightly differently. Let me as a TGB owner download iTGB for free, much as I can TX. Only make me pay once I have something to sell. That way, the risk for me is deferred to project completion, GG makes the same amount of money, and more folks are trying out and debugging the tools.
#48
FYI, you can get a 20GB HD for the 360 for about $40. So no reason to buy the $300 version that has a bunch of extra crap (two crap games, most times).
But I digress. As I said, the numbers don't matter so much as the disparity is rather large. Especially for someone that doesn't already own a Mac (but does own a PC, which I find much more likely, if you're interested in game dev (assuming you're not interested SOLELY in iPhone dev...)) or for someone that actually wants to buy an equivalently specced Mac rig (it is NOT 1:1 price to specs between PC and Macs).
Given that disparity and larger cost of entry for iPhone, I find the GG license appropriate. I wouldn't call it "indie friendly" but as I noted, I don't think iPhone is "indie friendly" to begin with, thus the license is appropriate IMO.
01/25/2009 (5:19 pm)
@Chris, well, that's a bit of an oversimplification I think, honestly (your price comparison). I did also note that some people might want to get an iPhone rather than an iPod Touch because of the desire to make network aware apps that use 3G and not just Wifi (I actually mentioned this before).FYI, you can get a 20GB HD for the 360 for about $40. So no reason to buy the $300 version that has a bunch of extra crap (two crap games, most times).
But I digress. As I said, the numbers don't matter so much as the disparity is rather large. Especially for someone that doesn't already own a Mac (but does own a PC, which I find much more likely, if you're interested in game dev (assuming you're not interested SOLELY in iPhone dev...)) or for someone that actually wants to buy an equivalently specced Mac rig (it is NOT 1:1 price to specs between PC and Macs).
Given that disparity and larger cost of entry for iPhone, I find the GG license appropriate. I wouldn't call it "indie friendly" but as I noted, I don't think iPhone is "indie friendly" to begin with, thus the license is appropriate IMO.
#49
01/25/2009 (5:23 pm)
Let me put it another way. I think that the license for iTorque is merely GG's way of offsetting the fact that iTorque targets a niche of a niche (indies making games for iPhone) by cashing into some of the copious amount of proverbial "Apple Tax" that's attached to anything Apple touches.
#50
I think that is a interesting idea and also benefits iTGB also. Even though someone may not ever make a retail title from iTGB it doesn't mean they won't create things that add to the iTGB community. There's lots of great resources for TGE and TGEA contributed from people that have never shipped a product but still add value to both products.
I can see where GG come from on going this route in that it would take a large chunk of profit away from iTGB in that these non retail developers would not be making them any type of company substainable profit (money that keeps the company afloat). While one could argue that any community contribution to any GG project is value add to the product (But that would be for a different thread).
---
There's been some great additions to TGE and TGEA over the years that never would have happened and been there today if it wasn't for the community we have here. Some people forget that the lighting kit used in both TGE and TGEA was a community member addition that was bought by GG and rolled into the projects. Wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the community. I just hate to see us lose what has been built up over the years. I guess its bound to happen at some point someday down the road though.
01/25/2009 (5:26 pm)
Chris - "Personally, I'd like to see it handled slightly differently. Let me as a TGB owner download iTGB for free, much as I can TX. Only make me pay once I have something to sell. That way, the risk for me is deferred to project completion, GG makes the same amount of money, and more folks are trying out and debugging the tools. "I think that is a interesting idea and also benefits iTGB also. Even though someone may not ever make a retail title from iTGB it doesn't mean they won't create things that add to the iTGB community. There's lots of great resources for TGE and TGEA contributed from people that have never shipped a product but still add value to both products.
I can see where GG come from on going this route in that it would take a large chunk of profit away from iTGB in that these non retail developers would not be making them any type of company substainable profit (money that keeps the company afloat). While one could argue that any community contribution to any GG project is value add to the product (But that would be for a different thread).
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There's been some great additions to TGE and TGEA over the years that never would have happened and been there today if it wasn't for the community we have here. Some people forget that the lighting kit used in both TGE and TGEA was a community member addition that was bought by GG and rolled into the projects. Wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the community. I just hate to see us lose what has been built up over the years. I guess its bound to happen at some point someday down the road though.
#51
Indeed the Mac is a little more expensive than an equivalent PC, but a good Mac isn't much more than a good PC, nowhere near the disparity that you're professing.
And I'd rather pierce my scrotum with a white hot fork than work for a company that made me use a $10 keyboard. Seriously, if you're a programmer, these are the tools of your trade, using a $10 keyboard is like a mechanic using a $4 wrench from Auto Zone.
01/25/2009 (5:26 pm)
You said you wanted to compare equivalent systems, and then you're talking about a PC with garbage parts. A $20 DVD burner, a $10 mouse and a 24" monitor for $200? I had figured your $580 included a good Asus mobo, now I'm not so sure. You're probably throwing the $59 crapboard in there too and the only decent parts are the CPU and video card, and then comparing it to the most expensive iMac.Indeed the Mac is a little more expensive than an equivalent PC, but a good Mac isn't much more than a good PC, nowhere near the disparity that you're professing.
And I'd rather pierce my scrotum with a white hot fork than work for a company that made me use a $10 keyboard. Seriously, if you're a programmer, these are the tools of your trade, using a $10 keyboard is like a mechanic using a $4 wrench from Auto Zone.
#52
Also, I've never seen any evidence that Apple uses good RAM/mobo for their iMacs or the like. They certainly don't use the high end mobos. One of those suckers wouldn't even fit in an iMac. The nb/sb heatpipes on most of the high end mobos alone are probabably too tall to fit inside the case. The RAM I had was definitely better and more expense than whatever they stick in the iMacs.
As for the $20 DVD burner, those are usually NEC or Toshiba, which are both excellent manufacturers of DVD burners. I use, to this day, a DVD burner I got for $50 on Newegg in 2003, which was a rebranded Toshiba. Unless this SuperDrive crap Apple puts in their machines does Blu-ray or some such, I'd rather have the inexpensive and reliable $20 Toshiba or NEC. And I'd never put a Blu-ray drive in my computer anyway, because they're pointless as hell when HDs are so cheap/GB.
I also have a pile of various keyboards at my house, ranging from $10 to $100ish.
Edit: What type of wrench? There are a lot of (single) wrenches I'd say you probably shouldn't bother spending more than $4 on anyway. It's a WRENCH. Pretty much all of them do about the same job wrenching things. Unless you're assuming that a $4 wrench is made of aluminum or foam or something.
In fact, I just looked up some average wrench prices, and most of them end up being able $5-6 each. So.... I don't think your analogy works very well. Now, a $4 wrench set I can understand being wary of.
Edit: I also find it amusing that you think a $60 mobo is automatically "crap". Brand usually determines the quality of mobos, given that mobo price is an indicator of features more than quality. I did note it was an ASUS, I also could have picked a Gigabyte or other reliable manufacturer. The one I picked is roughly equivalent in features to the ones in iMacs (which given the relatively small form factor, don't have that many "extras" of more expensive boards anyway).
01/25/2009 (5:44 pm)
$1000+ isn't "little" in my opinion, but if you're prepared to pay that much for a couple of pounds of white plastic, more power to you.Also, I've never seen any evidence that Apple uses good RAM/mobo for their iMacs or the like. They certainly don't use the high end mobos. One of those suckers wouldn't even fit in an iMac. The nb/sb heatpipes on most of the high end mobos alone are probabably too tall to fit inside the case. The RAM I had was definitely better and more expense than whatever they stick in the iMacs.
As for the $20 DVD burner, those are usually NEC or Toshiba, which are both excellent manufacturers of DVD burners. I use, to this day, a DVD burner I got for $50 on Newegg in 2003, which was a rebranded Toshiba. Unless this SuperDrive crap Apple puts in their machines does Blu-ray or some such, I'd rather have the inexpensive and reliable $20 Toshiba or NEC. And I'd never put a Blu-ray drive in my computer anyway, because they're pointless as hell when HDs are so cheap/GB.
Quote:And I'd rather pierce my scrotum with a white hot fork than work for a company that made me use a $10 keyboard. Seriously, if you're a programmer, these are the tools of your trade, using a $10 keyboard is like a mechanic using a $4 wrench from Auto Zone.Not quite. When I said everyone but me uses a $10ish keyboard, I didn't point out that they use them because they genuinely like the simple setup and decent quality (IIRC they are Logitech or some such keyboards). My original keyboard that I picked out was a $100 split key MS keyboard (I ended up spilling soda on it and am using a $20 Logitech at the moment). The mouse I use at home now is a Razer Copperhead, and at work I use a Logitech MXwhatever (the one with the weird dual mode mechanical/regular scroll wheel that costs $100ish). I've never found keyboards that are $100 to be significantly better than ones that are $15-20. They tend merely to have more buttons that I don't use (though I do verily miss my MS keyboard :( Though everyone else at the office hates split key :P).
I also have a pile of various keyboards at my house, ranging from $10 to $100ish.
Edit: What type of wrench? There are a lot of (single) wrenches I'd say you probably shouldn't bother spending more than $4 on anyway. It's a WRENCH. Pretty much all of them do about the same job wrenching things. Unless you're assuming that a $4 wrench is made of aluminum or foam or something.
In fact, I just looked up some average wrench prices, and most of them end up being able $5-6 each. So.... I don't think your analogy works very well. Now, a $4 wrench set I can understand being wary of.
Edit: I also find it amusing that you think a $60 mobo is automatically "crap". Brand usually determines the quality of mobos, given that mobo price is an indicator of features more than quality. I did note it was an ASUS, I also could have picked a Gigabyte or other reliable manufacturer. The one I picked is roughly equivalent in features to the ones in iMacs (which given the relatively small form factor, don't have that many "extras" of more expensive boards anyway).
#53
01/25/2009 (8:05 pm)
Davis, I didn't intend to make it sound like those community members should be paid for their contributions. They contributed freely. However, GG took what they did, rolled it into the engine, claimed it as their own work, and are now going to charge extra for it. Sure GG has added some things, but many of the changes that have occurred in the engine code over time have been contributed by community members -- many of them the same community members GG intends to kick to the curb with their new pricing.
#54
Chris: Yeah, actually, that's a brilliant idea that really does sort of cover the "experemental development" sort of attitude I was bitchin' about, allowing, well, a bit more breathing room for the hobbyists, dreamers, and the rest of the Indie crowd.
Thomas: Unfortunately, your last paragraph is probably correct, no matter how much I might dislike it :-)
Ross: Here's my final words on this... no matter how many people say differently, you keep coming back with damned near the same argument over and over. No matter how many people say something like "No, this is not what the debate is about", you persist. I love a good intellectual discourse. I hate a room full of people who say nothing but "Amen, Brother!" - it's boring, and serves no purpose. I've got enough ego I don't require yes men to tell me I've got great ideas ;-) But I'm gonna say something I VERY rarely say - Dude, seriously, shut the fuck up, and get the fuck out. Go start another thread elsewhere focused on Apple hardware expense, the viability of "Indieness" of the iPhone, etc. Let this be directly about what the REST of us are discussing. Shoo.
01/25/2009 (8:28 pm)
Joe: Oh, sorry, misstook your intent there - yeah, I agree with you on that point. Many of the people who contributed over the years are indeed the hobbyists, and the pricing structure for things that have little bits of their code in it does seem a bit wrong. Chris: Yeah, actually, that's a brilliant idea that really does sort of cover the "experemental development" sort of attitude I was bitchin' about, allowing, well, a bit more breathing room for the hobbyists, dreamers, and the rest of the Indie crowd.
Thomas: Unfortunately, your last paragraph is probably correct, no matter how much I might dislike it :-)
Ross: Here's my final words on this... no matter how many people say differently, you keep coming back with damned near the same argument over and over. No matter how many people say something like "No, this is not what the debate is about", you persist. I love a good intellectual discourse. I hate a room full of people who say nothing but "Amen, Brother!" - it's boring, and serves no purpose. I've got enough ego I don't require yes men to tell me I've got great ideas ;-) But I'm gonna say something I VERY rarely say - Dude, seriously, shut the fuck up, and get the fuck out. Go start another thread elsewhere focused on Apple hardware expense, the viability of "Indieness" of the iPhone, etc. Let this be directly about what the REST of us are discussing. Shoo.
#55
I think GG's license for iTorque is appropriate, given its a niche smaller than their normal niche and that iPhone development in general costs more to get started in. So, compared to the relative costs of getting started between PC/Mac or another platform and iPhone, the iTorque license is about proportional to what they're charging for their other engines.
So I agree with you. I don't think it's an "indie friendly" license per se, but I don't think iPhone dev in general is "indie friendly" either. That's an opinion of course, so feel free to ignore it, but it does directly address the original topic of the post.
Edit: Honestly guys, I don't think the hostility is necessary. I haven't been flaming you guys, or being uncivil in this discussion. A bit snarky perhaps, but I daresay not uncivil.
01/25/2009 (11:11 pm)
@Davis, LOL! Calm down man, sheesh. As you'll note, I said numerous times that the comparison was merely an illustration allowing me to shed some light on my reasoning for saying....I think GG's license for iTorque is appropriate, given its a niche smaller than their normal niche and that iPhone development in general costs more to get started in. So, compared to the relative costs of getting started between PC/Mac or another platform and iPhone, the iTorque license is about proportional to what they're charging for their other engines.
So I agree with you. I don't think it's an "indie friendly" license per se, but I don't think iPhone dev in general is "indie friendly" either. That's an opinion of course, so feel free to ignore it, but it does directly address the original topic of the post.
Quote:Go start another thread elsewhere focused on Apple hardware expense, the viability of "Indieness" of the iPhone, etc. Let this be directly about what the REST of us are discussing. Shoo.Ummm.... Your entire post hinges around your feeling that the iTorque licensing model isn't "indie friendly". You don't agree that whether or not iPhone dev in general is very "indie friendly" affects how GG would implement their licensing? If this ("indie friendliness" of iTorque licensing, about which 90% of your original post is concerned) isn't what you're discussing, please enlighten me.
Quote:No matter how many people say something like "No, this is not what the debate is about", you persist.I've been saying the same exact thing in about every post since people have started going down the Mac vs. PC route.
Edit: Honestly guys, I don't think the hostility is necessary. I haven't been flaming you guys, or being uncivil in this discussion. A bit snarky perhaps, but I daresay not uncivil.
#56
01/25/2009 (11:13 pm)
Naughty words hurt my eyes. 
#57
Someone told you a page ago that you're posting offtopic, yet you keep on doing it. That's not snarky, it's unmannered. I don't disagree with your points, but this isn't the place to discuss it. You know, maybe others are interested in the original topic, not some price/mac/gadget/whatever vs whatever argument.
01/26/2009 (2:16 am)
Quote:
Edit: Honestly guys, I don't think the hostility is necessary. I haven't been flaming you guys, or being uncivil in this discussion. A bit snarky perhaps, but I daresay not uncivil.
Someone told you a page ago that you're posting offtopic, yet you keep on doing it. That's not snarky, it's unmannered. I don't disagree with your points, but this isn't the place to discuss it. You know, maybe others are interested in the original topic, not some price/mac/gadget/whatever vs whatever argument.
#58
1. Requirements: its all nice and fine but it forgets to mention that you need an Intel Mac with OSX 10.5.3 to build an iPhone app. Sounds like unimportant but believe me, that isn't anywhere unimportant
2. The EULA states $500 per seat, per title. Yet it is $500 per seat including a license for a title. Additional titles cost $100 for the Indie License. That is at least the license under which I bought my iTGB Indie and I have not been notified of any change to that.
3. Its actually even worse. The rework of the page has removed the license buying link completely. Additionally that flash thing is a bit of a problem, as Adobe still does not feel like offering a damned 64bit flash version
01/26/2009 (3:45 am)
The new iTorque page definitely needs a helping hand to fix the major problems:1. Requirements: its all nice and fine but it forgets to mention that you need an Intel Mac with OSX 10.5.3 to build an iPhone app. Sounds like unimportant but believe me, that isn't anywhere unimportant
2. The EULA states $500 per seat, per title. Yet it is $500 per seat including a license for a title. Additional titles cost $100 for the Indie License. That is at least the license under which I bought my iTGB Indie and I have not been notified of any change to that.
3. Its actually even worse. The rework of the page has removed the license buying link completely. Additionally that flash thing is a bit of a problem, as Adobe still does not feel like offering a damned 64bit flash version
#59
01/29/2009 (12:41 pm)
With version 2.5 of Unity on the way (meaning, you can use windows and won't need mac osx to do your Unity dev) this might be worth looking into unity3d.com/unity/features/iphone-publishing 
Torque Owner Gerald Fishel
Development Ninja
The difference in price between a 8800 and a 9800 is like $30, you can barely get a cheap mouse for that, and you thought that made up for all of the other stuff? BTW, if you buy an iMac from an Apple store you can get them to upgrade the video card.
Sure, if you compare a vastly inferior PC to a Mac Pro, in the same light that you did just there with the iMac.
You're kidding right?
Windows license is a minimum of $100, $180 or so for an OEM version of Vista Ultimate... the difference between a 17" craptastic Asus monitor and a 24" monitor with the quality of a Mac monitor is at least $300, a good double layer DVD burner is $100... that doubles the price of your PC right there. A good keyboard and mouse is around $100 (you're not programming with a $10 special are you?), another $50 or so for a wireless LAN card, $30-40 for a cheap set of speakers.
And still no repair warranty.
And I'm not a "Mac guy". I own a MacBook Pro, but I don't really do any development on it, it was a gift that turned into a very expensive portable DVD player and web browser ;) My development systems are all PCs, I just found your comparisons a little ridiculous and narrow. I doubt you could find any Mac that costs more than my PC gaming rig :P