Game Development Community

dev|Pro Game Development Curriculum

Who Handed Garage Games The Crack Pipe?

by Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr · 01/25/2009 (12:30 am) · 59 comments

The reason my answer has been consistently "Torque" is;

Simple engine - it's pretty easy for someone who doesn't know a lot yet to get started. Sure, you won't be doing the most advanced game development the first day, but it's fast to get up to speed for "little things" and ideas.

Lots of power - Once you kick off the training wheels and get away from the tutorials, there's a buttload of power behind the Torque engine!

Low Cost Entry - An indie license for Torque is dirt cheap. This has the advantage of, well, just being cheap, but it also means that if anyone wants to try and play around outside of the defined boundaries of successful established game styles you're not out much.

No Per-Title Fees - Which means even if you only got a small following for your nitche game, hey, turning around and doing it again isn't going to cost you anything more.

Focus On Getting A Game Done - Rather than tie yourself up dealing with thing like engine development, focus on what's important - getting a game completed. I didn't always agree with Jeff Tunnell on a number of things, but he had one thing right - finish a game and release it.

There's actually quite a few other reasons why I'm a fan, but, that's the big reasons why I pimp the engine, and have since, what? 2001? 2002? And I've had a very "Gotta Buy 'Em All!" attitude too - grudgingly, I've bought TGE, T2D (er, TGB), Torque Lighting Kit, The TGE Upgrade, and... well, just about anything except the console engines, and TGEA (mainly because at the time good Shader support wasn't that important.)

I've been fielding a few questions from people lately that included iPhone - and I had heard of Garage Games adding iPhone support, so I continued to throw people at the Torque setup.

I own an iPhone, love my iPhone, and I'm wanting to do a little bit of "experimental" game development - see what cool ass stuff I could do with accelerometer + multitouch + Torque. In particular, I had this wicked idea for transforming my old Boulder Panic! titles into something completely new - but it's experemental because the game could very easily become WAY too hard to play. But I already own the various Torque licenses, know the tech, and, well, I've been a bit of a fanboy of the engine for quite a while.

So I stop by here, and check out how much I'll be shelling out for yet another GG engine. I already own my iPhone dev license, so, this shouldn't be too bad.

Torque Game Builder for iPhone (iTGB) Indie End User License Agreement (EULA) $500 Per Seat, Per Project License

Are You FUCKING shitting me?

$500 wasn't too steep - that I expected. $500 PER PROJECT? Uh, no. Actually, let me take that a little further. Not no, but HELL NO.

This is the first time I've seen full-on greed coming from Garage Games. Things have previously showed a good ballance between "We gotta make money" and "We gotta consider the interests of the Indies" (lets face it, for bigger corporate customers, $1000+ licensing fees for a title is almost nothing quite often) But this time? It's more like "OOOohhhh - the iPhone is HOT! I bet we can really bend 'em over the table for this!"

$500 per title is not Indie development anymore. It's no longer accessible to anyone who's looking to "break into it", or try experimental stuff. Now it's just another engine, and there are now a lot of those about. Oddly enough, there's already a couple of other engines that are iPhone ready that don't charge per title, so that can't be the excuse. Actually, there's no real excuse for the pricing, just a case of trying to suck as much money out of customers as possible. They see the iPhone, and the Garage Games customer base that might use it as a gold rush for quick cash.

Please, someone take the crack pipe outta the hands of the GG marketing guys, look back at where GG came from, and the folks who advocated the engine, and the community who became built around that engine. Then ask - is the pricing right for that community? I maintain the answer is a solid NO. Drop per project bit - flat fee that sucker.

Heck, give the guys who've already licensed nearly everything a big ol' price break while you're at it! (OK, it was my turn to puff on the crack pipe a bit - sorry about that.)

Now, having said a few very inflammatory things there, and insulting at least a few people in management :-), I do have a couple of good things to say:

Ya know, looking back - good God, it's amazing that Torque is still kickin', Garage Games is still around, and while part of the community has moved on, there's still a lot of faces here, and some of them are still "good ol' days" faces. I think my first license was in 2001, though I'm not positive - for an engine and a company to be viable for this long? Well, dispite my cursing and distain for the iPhone licensing solution they chose, it's pretty damned impressive. And the tech hasn't gone completely stale. Ya'lls still get kudos and all that for makin' a company about supporting Indie game development last this long!

Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr
Midnight Ryder Technologies
(Oh, check out my new blog / podcast if ya' want ;-)

Author,
[url=http://www.gamerzonecenters.com]The Story of Gamer Zone[url]
(BTW - the book formatted version, which has a LOT of cleaned up content is about to be released. I'll be posting on here when it is, along with all the old World of Gamer Zone TV series DVD's :-)

#21
01/25/2009 (2:26 pm)
Joe people tend to forget about us old folks that have been around since the old days. Sad thing is theres a very good chance that GG wouldn't even be here without or original purchases of TGE back in the day.

I picked up TGE back in Aug 23, 2001 when the engine had loads of bugs, missing functions because large parts of it had just been ripped out due to Tribes 2 licenseing agreements and such. I picked it up not as much because I had grander plans with it. But more because I seen a great concept born for the little guys. The people that didn't have thousands to spend on a game engine. I consider it an investment of sorts into GG and what they planned to do.

Over the years I have been proud of everything GG has done for the most part and the fact they have went from a small 4 man team to a fair size company and still kept there simple goals in mind and at the for-front of it all. Recently that has changed somewhat, but I can still see that little light that was shinning back in 2001 there.

Not to say someone that purchases the engine today that there opinion should matter less. But the people that have helped formed GG to what it is today should not have there opinions / idea / ect tossed out eather. I've seen many people come and go over the years. Some just came tossed out hate then left. Others have dropped amazing packages like the lighting kit, the mmokit, constructor, TMK for TGE. I hate to see any old person that has been here from the start up and leave.

I will say though that my opinions maybe jaded from time. Time at one place has a tendecy to make you care about that one place even more then most.

The whole iTorque licenses wording with project could just be a mistake. But then ageain a license should be carefully read many times to make sure its right from the start. *shrug*
#22
01/25/2009 (2:29 pm)

Personally i think they should charge $500 for all there products (less the aging TGE). A slight higher price would keep away the 'pie in the sky' dreamers who come here and ask the same questions month after month, its difficult for a LOL'brat to save up over $200- a most effective filter.

Of course for $500 one would expect a bit more polish on the engines.

As far as iPhone Torque development, $500 is a very low price. If you cant flip the $500 price, develop a prototype idea in TGE TGEA TGB, show a few friends, family members and ask them for some funding. Once you prove your talent its easy to get some money for it.
#23
01/25/2009 (2:39 pm)
"Mac Mini ($500 - yep, that's my dev platform at the moment, works just fine, thanks for asking) + iPhone license + iPhone... That's MUCH MUCH more than the equivalent setup for 360 Community Games."

Yes, I didn't include the price of a PC. So, I guess you can subtract that, but really, most people that want to make games tend to play them, which usually means owning a PC. Visual Studio is free unless you want the Pro version, which isn't really necessary for indie/hobbyist dev IMO. I use it at home to compile my work projects simply because I can't be arsed to bring the VSPro CD home from work.

Also, Macs are just PC hardware that costs significantly more than regular PC hardware without a shiny case.

So, let me break it down again real fast:

iPhone:
iPhone is either about $1700 (with contract) or $1000 (no contract)
Mac Mini is $500 or $0 if you own one in lieu of a PC (which thus makes it fair not to include the PC price either, and a Mac Mini has SHITE hardware compared to what you could build for the same price. *Incredibly* shite.)
Apple dev fees $100 or $200 (can't remember which)
iTorque $500

Total without contract and pre-existing Mac: $1600
Total without contract and no pre-existing Mac: $2300
Total with contract and pre-existing Mac: $2300
Total with contract and no pre-existing Mac: $3000


360 Community Games:
360 - $200
PC - $500 or $0 if you already have one (I'm using $500 which would buy you about 4-5 generations better hardware than what's in a Mac Mini).
Creator's Club membership - $50
TorqueX - $150 for 2D or $250 for 3D

Total with pre-existing PC and TX2D: $400
Total with pre-existing PC and TX3D: $500
Total without pre-existing PC and TX2D: $900
Total without pre-exiting PC and TX3D: $1000

So, in every scenario, iPhone costs at LEAST $600 more than 360 to dev for, and in the case that you already have a dev machine, iPhone is up to $1000-2000+ to get started with than the 360. So, no, my points aren't invalid. They are very valid. A hobbyist that already owns a PC can start on the 360 for $400 to build 2D games. A hobbyist with a Mac (a significantly crappier dev machine too, since Mac Mini's are dated as hell for their price, and one can build a machine that is several hardware generations ahead of it with real PC hardware for the same price) and no contract is going to pay $1600! That's a difference in the most barebones starting setup of $1200! That is DEFINITELY not indie friendly in my opinion, and surprise surprise, Torque only accounts for 24.4% of the cost in the iPhone scenario. The other 75.6% of the price is due to Apple (and if the cost of the dev subscription is $200 and not $100, it's EVEN MORE!).

I think I'm pretty justified in not considering iPhone to really be "indie" when the most barebones setup you could possibly start on is $1600.

So, $400 vs $1600. Which one is indie targeted? Seems pretty clear to me.

And I think it's pretty clear that I've shown that the cost really can't be brought down to anywhere NEAR that of the entry cost for 360 (not to mention the fact that I basically just let pass the idea of getting a $500 Mac Mini vs. a $500 custom built PC which is really a huge disparity. Truthfully I should go and configure a $500 PC and see what specs it has, match that to the specs of an equivalent Mac, and readjust the prices to reflect what you would pay if you were actually getting the same level of machine).

Actually, I think I'll do that.
#24
01/25/2009 (2:52 pm)
Thomas, looks like you have 4 days on me. I guess I'm a newbie. ;)

I remember V12, and the lack of sound and other features because they had to be ripped out of the engine due to licensing. Those were the days...

I still see GG as essentially the same as they were back then. However, I also see some greed, and I see them claiming community-based improvements as their own. When I see them (them being the aforementioned new employees) saying that they've done all the engine upgrades over the years themselves, and that they've added all these new features themselves, without giving community members the recognition they deserve, I see that as a step away from the original GG.

Then I see them saying that they deserve more money for these upgrades and additions. How about the "hobbyists" and "dreamers" who contributed to the features? You know, the "hobbyists" and "dreamers" who will be left out by the new, more expensive licensing? The "hobbyists" and "dreamers" that aren't the "insider" game studios mentioned by Brett? The "hobbyists" and "dreamers" who only provided code and features, but not necessarily revenue? Do they deserve more money from GG for their contributions? After all, GG is capitalizing on their hard work.

Anyway, no need to rant. Got other stuff to do today... ;)
#25
01/25/2009 (2:57 pm)
@Caylo: Agreed.
#26
01/25/2009 (3:12 pm)
Had to make a second post, first one was too long. This post outlines what the price disparity is between iTorque vs. TX for XBLCommunity when you consider the price premium on Apple products vs. what you would pay for a PC with equivalent specs.

Edit: Okay, the Mac Mini is actually $600 not $500, so add $100 to those figures as they exist in the previous post, first of all.

Secondly, this is what I ended up with comparing parts for a PC on Newegg vs. the price of a roughly equivalent (but shittier vid card by a LARGE margin, 8800GS is a lot crappier than a 9800GT) Mac.

iMac

2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB memory
500GB hard drive1
8x double-layer SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS 512MB

Total: $1799

PC

Case
asus 17" monitor
Asus mobo
2.8Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB Corsair! (not some crap refurb unbranded junk they put in iMacs)
9800GT 512MB (much much better card than the 8800GS)

Total: $580

So the adjusted figures are:

iPhone:

Mac is now $1800

Total without contract and pre-existing Mac: $1600
Total without contract and no pre-existing Mac: $4100
Total with contract and pre-existing Mac: $2300
Total with contract and no pre-existing Mac: $4800

PC is now $600

Total with pre-existing PC and TX2D: $400
Total with pre-existing PC and TX3D: $500
Total without pre-existing PC and TX2D: $1000
Total without pre-exiting PC and TX3D: $1100

So when you factor in that a Mac Mini is FAR inferior to a PC of the equivalent cost (even with monitor, case etc.), and factor in the real price of a Mac of equivalent power, the price disparity becomes (for the barebones case): $2900. At the highest level (actually have a contract and had to buy a Mac or PC), the price disparity becomes: $3700!

So no, iPhone development has a RIDICULOUSLY high barrier of entry in terms of the price premium Apple sticks on their products vs. what it costs to do the same thing for 360 with a PC. A $2900-$3700 difference, and you're getting a much shittier computer. Yeah, super indie friendly man, totally. XD

I hope you can see the ridiculousness of people screaming their heads off about how great iPhone is for indie developers from the perspective of anyone that actually sits down for two seconds to run the numbers.

Note: The numbers for if you have a pre-existing comp are the same as the previous post's numbers (which don't reflect that a Mini is $600 not $500). However, if you spent $1800 on a PC, you'd be getting a PC miles ahead of the equivalently priced iMac. If I went there, the price disparity only grows, because the Mac Pros have an even higher premium over a custom built PC than the iMacs do. Sheesh!
#27
01/25/2009 (3:14 pm)
Quote:So, I guess you can subtract that, but really, most people that want to make games tend to play them, which usually means owning a PC.

I'd say it's pretty reasonable to assume that most people who want to make games for the iPhone probably play them too, and hence own an iPhone.

Quote:So, in every scenario, iPhone costs at LEAST $600 more than 360 to dev for,

Half of that $600 is the difference in price between the TGE license and the iTorque license...
#28
01/25/2009 (3:19 pm)
Gerald, read my second post. It's actually WAY WAY more than that, since you can't buy a Mac for the same price as an equivalently specced PC. The Macs run about $1100 more than the same specced PC (slightly better specced really, since the vid card is MUCH better).

Also, if we're assuming you already have an iPhone, we can assume that the person that's going to do 360 dev has a 360 already AND an extra $1500 ($1700 (iphone w/ contract...if they're buying w/o contract, they're likely doing it to dev for it anyway) - $200 (xbox cost)) just laying around, so same thing.

And yes I realize there is a $250 price diff between iTorque and TX3D and a $350 difference between iTorque and TX2D. However, IMO, that shouldn't be counted as "free" for iPhone dev, since that's the model they chose for Apple's products. *shrug* The VAST majority of the cost difference is the fact that Apple overcharges people for PC hardware. Especially if you match the specs and not the price. The other half is the crazy iPhone price.

Also, please provide something more substantial next time. Your post doesn't really deflate my point at all (especially the numbers displayed in the second post). iPhone dev is WAY WAY WAY more expensive.
#29
01/25/2009 (3:24 pm)
@Ross, you're also comparing apples and oranges by comparing PC parts from Newegg with a manufactured Mac with the accompanying warranties on a system that is made to be together. Not everybody wants to build their own PC, or fix it themselves when it breaks.

#30
01/25/2009 (3:29 pm)
If you can't put together a PC, you probably shouldn't get into game development. In fact, I'd hang a sign above the proverbial "developers corner" that says: "Abandon all hope ye who enter here and can't build a goddamn PC. Artists excluded of course."

Newegg has warrantees included for almost all parts*. Your argument there isn't really valid, plus if it's that big a deal most people know someone that should be able to build a PC for them. And if you're an artist, you should have your programmer build one for you. If he can't, like I said, "Abandon all hope..."

Again, please provide something substantial that shows definitively that XBLCommunity (w/ TX) games dev startup costs are significantly (i.e. several thousands, as it really is between the two, favoring XBLC) more than that for iPhone (w/ iTorque). The fact is you can't, because the numbers are pretty damn plain.

* - The PC I use at home I built in 2003 from parts from Newegg. I had some issues with my RAM at the time of build and later on, and Newegg replaced them in a fashion that was 1000x easier than what I've dealt with for my "warranteed" laptop.
#31
01/25/2009 (3:38 pm)
I didn't say anything about "can" I said "wants to". I've been able to build computers for 20 years, but I don't do it any more, because my time is worth more than the money I save by doing it.

And your comparisons are also pretty bad. I don't see a hard drive or a DVD burner or a wireless LAN card or a Windows license or a keyboard and mouse or a webcam and speakers for your PC price, and you're comparing a 17" monitor with the 24" monitor that comes with a $1799 iMac.

And the warranties that come with newegg parts are not comparable to the Mac warranty. You still have to fix it yourself, you just get the parts exchanged.
#32
01/25/2009 (3:41 pm)
Ross,

We get it, you aren't a fan of iPhone development. :) I however don't agree with your analysis of price points being the relevant topic here... not at all.

The whole post is about iTorque in comparison to other GG products - not in comparison to other game development. Trying to compare apples and oranges is precisely that, apples and oranges...

App store is THE way to get your stuff out for iPhone. Its not a community games place like on the 360. Big fish and little fish go side by side in the appstore - on the 360 the big fish go boxed retail and the indies etc get put into an area where the end consumer considers them "lesser" products.

Plus, I want to do iPhone development, not 360 development. It is almost like you're saying that because 360 dev has a lower entry price that on a GG engine, it is 100% the option that I should be entertaining. In that case you might as well just develop for PC (heck, roll your own engine and it'll be 100% free!)

#33
01/25/2009 (3:48 pm)
@Gerald, I put a 500GB HDD in the PC. Same as the Mac. Also, I thought the comparison re: the other stuff was comparable due to the fact that you can't get anything better than an 8800GS, where the PC has a 9800GT (MUCH better card, GS vs GT). So I'll go ahead and subtract a good $100 for the disparity in card (i.e., you can get nothing better than the 8800GS in iMac at least...if you want me to compare PC vs. Mac Pro I will, but it's even nastier, the price disparity between the rigs ends up being $1500+!) from the price of the PC, and add $200 for OS/bigger monitor/DVD drive. It still comes out to $700 vs $1800.

@Craig, okay, you disagree without stating any reasons. I'll just ignore your opinion, since unlike my comparison, it's not based on anything objective :)

Also, yes, I am saying that for GG engines 360 is more "indie" than iPhone by far. But even without using GG engines, the prices are still pretty similar in terms of the several thousand dollars extra you have to pay to get started in iPhone dev.

Okay anyway, I get it. You Apple guys don't like having real numbers that show that Macs and Mac (esp iPhone) development are VASTLY more expensive than PC/360 development with an equivalent setup. Sorry to rain on your parade.

Honestly though, I have nothing against iPhone development. I do have something against Apple charging most likely unaware people $1000+ premiums for a PC with a white case with an Apple logo.

My point in making the comparison was to illustrate that iPhone dev PERIOD (regardless of using GG engines or not), is not really "indie friendly" (certainly not anywhere close to as much as Apple people keep raving about) when compared with something that actually is (XBLCommunity Games), and thus GG isn't really un-indiefying the iTorque license by charging for it the way they do. iPhone dev NEVER was indie, simply because of the exorbitant price to get a BASIC setup, compared to an equivalent setup for 360 dev.
#34
01/25/2009 (3:58 pm)
My whole post was reasons... *sigh*

Quote:The whole post is about iTorque in comparison to other GG products - not in comparison to other game development. Trying to compare apples and oranges is precisely that, apples and oranges...

See, a reason why I disagree! Wasn't hard to find that in my post, in fact it was right after I said I disagreed with the relevance of 360 dev costs...

By the way, smileys don't make comment like "I'll just ignore your opinion" any less offensive.
You jerk. Oh, almost forget the obligatory: :)

Stuff is more expensive in the Apple world - I never disagreed with that. Its a lot happier and lovely over here though. Its an enjoyable and productive place to be (on a Mac) for myself. I'm glad I made the switch.

If you aren't interested in iPhone development why are you posting here?! Are you trying to convert us or something? Or are you just trolling for the sake of trolling?
#35
01/25/2009 (4:01 pm)
Also, please do a new post or explicitly put an "edit" section at the bottom of a post you add to - otherwise it makes the thread of posts not make sense. :S

Another "also": you're still missing the point of iPhone dev pricing... we're talking about iTorque in comparison to other GG products. Not the iPhone platform as a whole.
#36
01/25/2009 (4:05 pm)
@Craig, first, I replied to the other bits of your post. I ignored the opinion that wasn't really supported by anything.

Second, re-read what I said in the last bit of my last post. I am posting the comparison of something I think is not indie friendly (due to exorbitant price of entry - $2-4k+) to something that I do consider to be indie friendly (price of entry, $500-1000) to point out to Davis that I think iPhone dev never was "indie friendly" to begin with, so GG using a non-indie license model makes sense.
#37
01/25/2009 (4:07 pm)
@Craig, my bad. I get into a habit of re-re editing things and I don't know how fast people are checking this. And no, I didn't miss the point. Read my last post :p What I am saying is 100% relevant to the discussion. I am merely illustrating a point that iPhone dev in general is not "indie friendly" due to its price of entry, thus GG's decision to use what some consider to be an "indie unfriendly" or "indie lessfriendly" license to make sense.
#38
01/25/2009 (4:10 pm)
I am actually interested in iPhone dev, btw. If I had $3k laying around to drop on getting the bare essentials to start doing it, I would.

Edit: Actually, I wouldn't. I still think that's way too much. If it didn't cost an arm and a leg, I would. Or if I had so much money laying around I really didn't care.
#39
01/25/2009 (4:11 pm)
Bored of banging my head against a Ross Pawley shaped wall. So I'll simply say the same stuff again:

Quote:Big fish and little fish go side by side in the appstore

Crunch some numbers about how you can do that on 360... See why iPhone is a good thing for indies now?
#40
01/25/2009 (4:16 pm)
@Craig, sorry that makes no sense. A vague quote about big and little fish doesn't illustrate how iPhone development is "indie friendly" to me at all. Yes, maybe they don't have high barriers to entry, so even "little fish" can get in, but newsflash: XBLCommunity stuff is the same way. In fact, in XBLC there really are no barriers at all, assuming your game isn't just patently offensive*. Any fish with a PC/Xbox and $40 (or $240 if they've no Xbox, unless they're willing to test only on PC O_O) can get into XBLC. So IMO, it's much "better" than the AppStore for indies *and* hobbyists. By far. XBLC AFAIK also don't ban/remove games that might be similar to a game MS might have made.

Also note I am reluctant to go down this route, since none of my other posts were ever meant to have anything to do directly with Xbox aside from the fact that I was using it to illustrate a point of "indie friendly" vs. "non indie friendly" in terms of cost barriers to entry in order to point out that GG's licensing decision makes sense in this case. Relative to the cost of starting up iPhone development, the GG license setup for iTorque is very similar to the costs of their other engines.

* - The peer review doesn't rate for quality at ALL. Just "offensive" things like language, sex, drugs etc.