Goodbye GarageGames Community
by Joshua Dallman · 01/15/2009 (10:30 am) · 58 comments
To quote GG co-founder Jeff Tunnell's blog:
"Many people have moved on, or graduated, if you will... one rarely hears from any of these people as they are running their successful companies, many still based on Torque technologies."
Speaking of developers who have moved on but are still using Torque, this is my last blog here -- this new site design settles it. It's about more than just web development decisions -- the new site design reflects the new attitude of the company, and I won't support it if it doesn't support indie games. The new IAC-funded guys running GG have amnesia when it comes to what GG was all about when it was founded. Look at the original GG logo:
See what it says right there on the logo? INDEPENDENT GAMES.
So where are the independent games and support thereof? Let's see what has GG done to support indepedent games with this new site:
(1) Removed of all the community-created games from the game store, taking it from over 50 games to less than 15
(2) Removed the community-created games "Powered by Torque" page
(3) Removed the engine-specific community-made games on the engine pages
(4) Removed all information on how to get published with GG
(5) Removed the indie game snapshots section
(6) Removed the and artist's corner snapshots section
(7) Removed game store games from the front page
(8) Buried the game store in the developer store where it'll never be found
With the lack of any new publishing of independent games except on the sparsely populated InstantAction, there's only one place left to promote any independent games I make, and that's with a developer interview that'll be up for a week and then forgotten, if I'm lucky to land the interview at all. Nice parting prize, but not nearly enough.
I've long been a champion of indie developers and their games. It seems that no one at GarageGames cares about these things anymore. On the whole site redesign team, there isn't one person with an indie perspective pulling for indies. Programmer, check. Graphic designer, check. Business analyst, check. QA, check. Actual game developer... oddly missing. Kind of funny (in a sad way) since the whole site is supposed to be designed for actual game developers.
The whole of the GarageGames community was to encourage people to make games (buy a GG engine, use the GG community, get motivated, share war stories, and get that game made, even if it was just a prototype or experiment). Where's the encouragement now when there's no place for that game to go once it's done? Where are the independent games on this site? Not even a "Powered by Torque" page or dev snapshots anymore? And the community game site "Great Games Experiment" has been totally abandoned by GG, which would have been at least some consolation as a place to put and promote games before GG expunged any evidence of their existence from this site.
On top of removing independent games from an independent game and development site, community features to support developers were an afterthought to Torque product promotion:
- no RSS
- no dev snapshot
- killed help wanted
- took out all team based interactions
- no associate tags
- no associate list
- took out all lore from the past on the company section
- no information on how to get published
- can't edit
- can't follow or be notified of blog comments and threads
- forum and resource contribution links removed from profile
- took out past work products on profile
- took out companies involved in from profile
- no profile or projects pics
- resources are a mess
- news has been eliminated
- no dashboard for what's new in community
- forums have been decimated
- no TDN
- etc.
Further participation in this once robust and thriving community is pointless. With Alexa rankings that have gone from 12,000 to 40,000 in the past year (a huge slide down), this new socially hostile site design should solidify the insignificance of continuing to participate in this declining community.
Talk is cheap -- it costs nothing to type the words "we care about the community and we're listening" (and we keep hearing that in response to this bungle). Action is what's meaningful, and by GG's actions they could care less about the community, as long as those Torque products have the best sales pages and access possible. Their only response to all this is "fixes are coming" but fixes would have been coming anyway -- they haven't reacted to our reaction at all. Hence, they aren't listening or don't truly care no matter how many times they try to spin things and type that they do. Or worse -- they're listening and they do care, but because they're not small-time developers like us anymore, they don't understand what all the fuss is about.
GG isn't dead, but the community is. Even if the community cares about GG, GG has to care about the community, and by their actions (not their words), they don't. Even if the community cares about indie games, GG has to care about indie games for there to be real support with muscle behind it, and by their actions they don't.
I'll see you guys over at http://forums.indiegamer.com. If you're serious about indie game development and community, I suggest you all level up and make the switch yourselves. If anyone has other suggestions for game dev communities to check out, post them here.
RIP GG community, 2001-2008.
Joshua Dallman
Former GarageGames Game Producer (2 years)
Indie Game Developer (5 years)
Web: http://www.redthumbgames.com
Blog: http://redthumbgames.wordpress.com/
"Many people have moved on, or graduated, if you will... one rarely hears from any of these people as they are running their successful companies, many still based on Torque technologies."
Speaking of developers who have moved on but are still using Torque, this is my last blog here -- this new site design settles it. It's about more than just web development decisions -- the new site design reflects the new attitude of the company, and I won't support it if it doesn't support indie games. The new IAC-funded guys running GG have amnesia when it comes to what GG was all about when it was founded. Look at the original GG logo:
See what it says right there on the logo? INDEPENDENT GAMES.
So where are the independent games and support thereof? Let's see what has GG done to support indepedent games with this new site:
(1) Removed of all the community-created games from the game store, taking it from over 50 games to less than 15
(2) Removed the community-created games "Powered by Torque" page
(3) Removed the engine-specific community-made games on the engine pages
(4) Removed all information on how to get published with GG
(5) Removed the indie game snapshots section
(6) Removed the and artist's corner snapshots section
(7) Removed game store games from the front page
(8) Buried the game store in the developer store where it'll never be found
With the lack of any new publishing of independent games except on the sparsely populated InstantAction, there's only one place left to promote any independent games I make, and that's with a developer interview that'll be up for a week and then forgotten, if I'm lucky to land the interview at all. Nice parting prize, but not nearly enough.
I've long been a champion of indie developers and their games. It seems that no one at GarageGames cares about these things anymore. On the whole site redesign team, there isn't one person with an indie perspective pulling for indies. Programmer, check. Graphic designer, check. Business analyst, check. QA, check. Actual game developer... oddly missing. Kind of funny (in a sad way) since the whole site is supposed to be designed for actual game developers.
The whole of the GarageGames community was to encourage people to make games (buy a GG engine, use the GG community, get motivated, share war stories, and get that game made, even if it was just a prototype or experiment). Where's the encouragement now when there's no place for that game to go once it's done? Where are the independent games on this site? Not even a "Powered by Torque" page or dev snapshots anymore? And the community game site "Great Games Experiment" has been totally abandoned by GG, which would have been at least some consolation as a place to put and promote games before GG expunged any evidence of their existence from this site.
On top of removing independent games from an independent game and development site, community features to support developers were an afterthought to Torque product promotion:
- no RSS
- no dev snapshot
- killed help wanted
- took out all team based interactions
- no associate tags
- no associate list
- took out all lore from the past on the company section
- no information on how to get published
- can't edit
- can't follow or be notified of blog comments and threads
- forum and resource contribution links removed from profile
- took out past work products on profile
- took out companies involved in from profile
- no profile or projects pics
- resources are a mess
- news has been eliminated
- no dashboard for what's new in community
- forums have been decimated
- no TDN
- etc.
Further participation in this once robust and thriving community is pointless. With Alexa rankings that have gone from 12,000 to 40,000 in the past year (a huge slide down), this new socially hostile site design should solidify the insignificance of continuing to participate in this declining community.
Talk is cheap -- it costs nothing to type the words "we care about the community and we're listening" (and we keep hearing that in response to this bungle). Action is what's meaningful, and by GG's actions they could care less about the community, as long as those Torque products have the best sales pages and access possible. Their only response to all this is "fixes are coming" but fixes would have been coming anyway -- they haven't reacted to our reaction at all. Hence, they aren't listening or don't truly care no matter how many times they try to spin things and type that they do. Or worse -- they're listening and they do care, but because they're not small-time developers like us anymore, they don't understand what all the fuss is about.
GG isn't dead, but the community is. Even if the community cares about GG, GG has to care about the community, and by their actions (not their words), they don't. Even if the community cares about indie games, GG has to care about indie games for there to be real support with muscle behind it, and by their actions they don't.
I'll see you guys over at http://forums.indiegamer.com. If you're serious about indie game development and community, I suggest you all level up and make the switch yourselves. If anyone has other suggestions for game dev communities to check out, post them here.
RIP GG community, 2001-2008.
Joshua Dallman
Former GarageGames Game Producer (2 years)
Indie Game Developer (5 years)
Web: http://www.redthumbgames.com
Blog: http://redthumbgames.wordpress.com/
About the author
#2
01/15/2009 (11:42 am)
its a terrible to see such blog here... 
#3
Others though, are not legitimate concerns. The Alexa traffic numbers mean very little. It's a tiny sampling of actual users. You can create a web site, get two people to visit it and run the toolbar and suddenly your in the top 50k. As webmaster myself, I look at our traffic having increased steadily over the past couple years, but our Alexa stats having dropped. It's really not a very good indication of traffic unless your in the top 2000 sites or so.
There is definately a shift happening, and it may be a change for the worst. But it's not all bad, either. The technology is better than its ever been. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on the new web site and give them time to fix the problems. If it looks the same a month from now, then I'd think a bit more negatively than I do now.
01/15/2009 (11:48 am)
I think it was a bit overboard. But I can understand the frustration with the new site, and the idea of the price of Torque3D being triple or more of what TGEA is. And some of he concerns are legitimate ones.Others though, are not legitimate concerns. The Alexa traffic numbers mean very little. It's a tiny sampling of actual users. You can create a web site, get two people to visit it and run the toolbar and suddenly your in the top 50k. As webmaster myself, I look at our traffic having increased steadily over the past couple years, but our Alexa stats having dropped. It's really not a very good indication of traffic unless your in the top 2000 sites or so.
There is definately a shift happening, and it may be a change for the worst. But it's not all bad, either. The technology is better than its ever been. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on the new web site and give them time to fix the problems. If it looks the same a month from now, then I'd think a bit more negatively than I do now.
#4
01/15/2009 (11:50 am)
This saddens me. If this is true, the community has lost an outstanding member. :( 
#5
01/15/2009 (11:56 am)
I dont want to discuss if this is dramatic or not. But look at points 1 to 8 of this blog. They are simply true. And this is sad plus I even did not find a single comment from GG regarding these.
#6
Let's give GG a chance to show that they aren't turning their back on us before we jump ship. Please.
01/15/2009 (12:10 pm)
C'mon guys, we really need to stand together right now. I've been a member of this community for years. I really hate to see what's happening, but please remember, regardless of where GG is going, the community belongs to all of us. If for some reason GG was to quit supporting the community, then, as a community, we can decide where to go from that point.Let's give GG a chance to show that they aren't turning their back on us before we jump ship. Please.
#7
The way I see it is, for the short term the site changes won't matter much but in the medium and long term they'd be detrimental to the community unless corrected.
01/15/2009 (12:14 pm)
I agree Brian, some of my comments might sound negative but I just hope GG corrects them, that is all. I'd like all of the comments regarding the site to be taken care of. A redesign should add features or streamline them, not remove them entirely. So we'll just have to sit back and see what happensThe way I see it is, for the short term the site changes won't matter much but in the medium and long term they'd be detrimental to the community unless corrected.
#8
Ever hear of "Flip this house" ?
...well, this is "flip that company".
//
@BarryDillerGames..*AHEM*..I mean GG:
Just don't rename Torque3D to: TheBarryDillerEngine3.0
//
I feel bad for Jeff Tunnell. The entity he nurtured is being reshaped and only for cash.
01/15/2009 (12:31 pm)
Here are a few random thoughts from the corners of my head...Ever hear of "Flip this house" ?
...well, this is "flip that company".
//
@BarryDillerGames..*AHEM*..I mean GG:
Just don't rename Torque3D to: TheBarryDillerEngine3.0
//
I feel bad for Jeff Tunnell. The entity he nurtured is being reshaped and only for cash.
#9
Thanks for the Indiegamer link Joshua, here are some more links for people who still have an interest in indie game development:
www.indiezen.org
www.ogre3d.org/
If there are any Blender DTS Exporter users out there reading this, I've set up some forums on my website (to replace the ones that GG deleted) so please stop by and say hi and let me know that you're still interested in the exporter:
www.jsgreenawalt.com/forum
I've also got documentation on there for the 0.97 beta version, which I will be finishing regardless of GG's insane and self destructive behavior.
(edit - I have removed the most offensive part of my post. I still believe that GG is not treating its community right, I stand by that. My apologies for my "defecate" on the community comment.)
01/15/2009 (12:35 pm)
I couldn't agree more with you Joshua, and furthermore:Quote:link
I'm supposed to be supportive, but I have to say I am saddened, and I
have to speak up. The community functions of GarageGames have been
decimated. I am sure it is harder for me, one of the founders with the
original vision for community and Indie support, but I think this will
be a loss for Indie game developers.
-Jeff Tunnell, Co-Founder GarageGames
Thanks for the Indiegamer link Joshua, here are some more links for people who still have an interest in indie game development:
www.indiezen.org
www.ogre3d.org/
If there are any Blender DTS Exporter users out there reading this, I've set up some forums on my website (to replace the ones that GG deleted) so please stop by and say hi and let me know that you're still interested in the exporter:
www.jsgreenawalt.com/forum
I've also got documentation on there for the 0.97 beta version, which I will be finishing regardless of GG's insane and self destructive behavior.
(edit - I have removed the most offensive part of my post. I still believe that GG is not treating its community right, I stand by that. My apologies for my "defecate" on the community comment.)
#10
The community new & old can not lose you as an inspiration and in a few weeks I hope you will hang on to here as many of us are in the same boat to see the action unfold. Then it is back to the same old business of indie games development with a great community :)
Hold the faith for a little bit longer! :)
01/15/2009 (12:40 pm)
Joshua, I hope you will stay and I feel everything you wrote was from the heart as well I echo this myself. With Davey, Ben, & Jeff posting, it gives a good sight into that the changes made here will be fixed and this is from people who understands Indies. The community new & old can not lose you as an inspiration and in a few weeks I hope you will hang on to here as many of us are in the same boat to see the action unfold. Then it is back to the same old business of indie games development with a great community :)
Hold the faith for a little bit longer! :)
#11
01/15/2009 (12:45 pm)
C'mon people, the community only dies if WE let it. Even if worse came to worse, there is nothing stopping us from creating our community to our own private part of cyber space. Alot of the knowledge resides in the community members, GG doesn't have a monopoly on that. Let's atleast give them the opportunity to show they still care.
#12
I think they said their piece already bro.
01/15/2009 (12:53 pm)
...broken site, community resourcing removed from site, no forewarning afaik.I think they said their piece already bro.
#13
01/15/2009 (1:22 pm)
Ok, I can understand the disappointment at lost features, I feel that too, but getting hysterical without giving them at least a little time to fix things is a bit silly.
#14
Garagegames is moving away from the Indie Scene. They're owned by corporates who wants to see financial growth. At some point they WILL get pressure to milk their user base.
01/15/2009 (1:36 pm)
I'm going to have to agree with Joshua. There's not much support for the actual indies. Garagegames is moving away from the Indie Scene. They're owned by corporates who wants to see financial growth. At some point they WILL get pressure to milk their user base.
#15
At that point, is there anything to keep Torque users from creating their own community for support? After all, look at all the resources put up by the community. All the support I've ever gotten was from community members themselves.
01/15/2009 (1:42 pm)
Quote:Garagegames is moving away from the Indie Scene. They're owned by corporates who wants to see financial growth. At some point they WILL get pressure to milk their user base.
At that point, is there anything to keep Torque users from creating their own community for support? After all, look at all the resources put up by the community. All the support I've ever gotten was from community members themselves.
#16
01/15/2009 (1:47 pm)
Quote:is there anything to keep Torque users from creating their own community for supporthehe, you are reading my thoughts inside game... about creating standalone site with missed features, but friendly to indies
#18
01/15/2009 (1:50 pm)
What I'm trying to say is, "In the case that GG was to quit supporting us, that doesn't mean that we have to quit supporting each other." 
#19
And I was allways wondering why the hell so many founders and people who where a driving factor at GG left the company after it got sold. I guess this change was allready being pushed down the ladder for a while now. That the website now reflects it too is a visual step of things that might went on behind the scenes.
Good luck Joshua, there are still good places where idnies can go to. You posted some yourself.
Michael Hartlef
01/15/2009 (1:50 pm)
I agree with Joshua too. The vibe of GG changed a while ago and now you really see how they think about the indie scene. That a lot of stuff got removed isn't just because of bugs. It is just to much. If someone really things that it is all about bugs, then I say that they didn't test this move at all. It is just to much! There is a method behind this.And I was allways wondering why the hell so many founders and people who where a driving factor at GG left the company after it got sold. I guess this change was allready being pushed down the ladder for a while now. That the website now reflects it too is a visual step of things that might went on behind the scenes.
Good luck Joshua, there are still good places where idnies can go to. You posted some yourself.
Michael Hartlef
#20
01/15/2009 (1:51 pm)
Yeah^^ What Maxim said.
Associate Phillip O'Shea
A bit of an over dramatisation?