Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing

#341

Quote:@Brett .. I did read the OP.. I'm just saying that if you raise the price to $2k, you will be competing with the likes of unreal, whether you admit you are or not.

Unreal 2 is $350k and Unreal 3 is around $1000k, so that's not really what they'd be competing with for $2k.

#342 1: Indies cant buy those engines even if they had the cash...

2: can we please continue here ?

#343 @Gerald: 3D breakout is probably not a good example, but I used that because it's an example of a game that is way harder to do in TGE than necessary. Those are typically the type of games indie developers that actually pay bills make. They might be a bit more complicated than a breakout clone, but the games are typically much different than a FPS. The more deviate from what Tribes was, the harder it is to make the game. This is even more so the case if you don't want networking your game, or you want to implement networking in a different way.

#344 Unreal 2 seat is only $7999
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/development-kit.php?ref=order

#345 @Ray, agreed to a point, especially re: networking. Though it's not really a problem for games that don't need networking, but games that want to do networking in a completely different way are probably screwed. I can't think of any good reason to do networking in a way different than can be leveraged with Torque networking, but I'm sure there are some.

But you're right in that many games are not as easy to make in TGE/A as FPS games are. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're easier to make with other setups though. The learning curve to get started is higher, but it's really not that difficult to break TGEA down to a simpler setup that doesn't use any of the FPS features. It's just that the FPS features that ARE in there can't be leveraged for what you want. i.e. the Player class won't be of much use to you in a 3D Breakout game, but ShapeBase/SceneObject/etc can still be leveraged, along with the particle systems, ray casting, animation, time management, GUI system, resource management, materials framework, sound framework, and many other features that can be leveraged to make your game. Look at Marble Blast Ultra, a casual game that's pretty far from being a FPS game.

But no, TGEA is not a silver bullet that's going to be useful for everything.

#346 @Husam Saoudi
The Unreal RT version cannot be used in game applications. It is for non-gaming applications such as simulations, architectural walkthroughs, etc.

#347 @Husam, that's just for the Unreal 2 runtime, no source code, and isn't for game development/publishing rights. The UE2 engine for games is $350,000 for one platform and $50,000 for each additional platform, PLUS 3% royalties on all revenues: http://udn.epicgames.com/Main/Licensing.html

#348 I also like this check box on the UT Runtime purchase form:

"By checking this box I acknowledge that Unreal Engine 2: Runtime - Registered Version is provided as-is and may never be updated to address bugs or other issues known and to be discovered. I accept this risk by proceeding with purchase."

#349 Short and sweet: I *could* afford to upgrade my present license for TGEA by say as much as $300... I'd rather do something closer to $50 to $100...
Going the high end would basically be doubling my present engine investment (ignoring my content packs). It would be painful but doable.

Read on for a little more history and opinion-ation-isms...Yes, my post is long, but I have been around far longer than it really appears...

I would love to see T3D improve content, workflow, art pipeline, and tools and pay the corresponding increase. I would prefer that to be affordable, that is in the $500 price range. Realistically anyone who is a true hobbyist knows they will probably spend (eventually) in the $499-$599 range for the thing they do. Look at musical instruments, look at collectibles, look at CCG's. During my meanderings in hobbies I have easily sunk 300+ in any one *thing* that's why TGEA at the $300 range was good. A sliding, upgrade based scale might serve more people better, after all most people start their hobbies small, they rarely drop $500, or more on a whim. I certainly wouldn't and don't have the resources to toss that much money into a hobby on a moment's notice.

I understand the reasons and needs for T3D to increase in pricing, and all the various risk/reward problems being mentioned. It took me a long time to finally settle on torque, and a significant price hike would require a re-examination of the various engines, but likely I would end up staying with this community. It's just too broad and strong, and I'm finally getting a feel for all these names I always see on the forums. Being around for a long time means you've seen people come and go, and others grow. I've seen many people go from member to associate and then convert to employee. And I've already invested so much time and effort into it i'm not likely to change anytime soon. The fact is that Torque is steadily improving, and improvements continue to come at an even greater pace than previously.

Let me be upfront: I consider myself one of those dreamer hobbyists that if I were looking at engines today, and saw a price tag of $1000 (or realistically anything over $500) would have decided against it, squeezed out of the playing field due to affordability. I live just above paycheck to paycheck, have a family, and probably too many hobbies... something I'm continuing to shrink as I try to focus, I guess it comes from being far too eclectic.
I am also likely one of those who Brett mentions: "...Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that ... THIS DOES NOT MEAN TORQUE IS NOT FOR YOU..."
How many people does this really exemplify? How many of those who would never publish a game have contributed materially to these forums with ideas, bugs, fixes, or "cool things"? From what I saw initially it was quite a few... and still seems to be the case, will that continue to be so when people have a higher barrier to entry?
With cheap video cameras, and cheap or free editing software we have cheesy, cheap, free movies all over the internet, anyone heard of youtube? This is what I had hoped to purchase when I came to the garage games community, but I digress, and clearly Brett isn't trying to kick us out of the community either.



Revolution happens when the masses can readily and materially contribute...we've seen this in many industries, and gaming is no different. Garage Games has always been about lowering that bar, reducing or removing the barrier to entry. So is this change serving the masses? Is it serving the community? Closing the garage certainly wouldn't ... And this is where Brett and GG are presently stuck trying to sort out how to best serve as many people as possible without excluding anyone.

A little history:
I was here before there was a garage, before there was a glimmer, or even a speck, or even a rumor to Dynamix that they would be shut down. I have been an exceedingly long standing lurker here, due mostly to my ability to get engrossed in any number of things at once, and being an avid roleplayer. (So does anyone really want to talk about how expensive a hobby can be? Would you like to see my library?)
Marriage, kids, and age do interesting things to you. Including increasing your pragmatism.
I was attempting to try to license Torque directly from Sierra/Dynamix around the time of the announcement of Tribes 2 going into beta. Why? I was a beta tester, saw it it could do, was amazed at it's network code (more than 64 players on modems!) I had already played Starsiege and loved that this same engine was going to be upgraded and reused and improved. Toss in some cool RPG aspects and presto you make a cool game even better... or at least that was the basis for the idea...
I wanted to make games, and at the time I did various mods, knew there was a lot to game making, but really had no clue. But I was young, ambitious, and had the heart of a lion. Well, it took a bit of finagling but I finally got someone to give me a rough number WITHOUT support for an engine license.
If you want to talk about sticker shock, this was one of those. Luckily I managed it like a champ and didn't sound too foolish to the guy I ended up talking to on the phone when he finally sputtered out... "something in the range of 100-200 thousand..." Basically I could license the tribes 2 engine for the amazingly low cost of 200k, full source, with no support because they were busy working on the Tribes 2 release. I let him know I would keep in touch and would consider the offer. I'm sure the guy knew better but he sounded like he smiled and said he would look forward to hearing from me.

I managed to keep my eye on the engine because I was still impressed and hoped that something might be negotiable, maybe once they recouped their investment in tribes 2 they might be more amenable...but I didn't really hold my breath.

I went about trying to go to another company with something similar. I approached Activision and manged to get to someone who offered me the Heavy gears 2 engine, at the amazing price of $250k with some limited support. I poked around to see what kind of financing was available, but the economy wasn't inclement.

At this point my only option was to wait and see what might occur, what other avenues might become available.

Well, as luck would have it, not only was Tribes 2 well received, sierra was having some cash problems. Havas/Cendant had made some poor decisions and was starting to tighten its belt. So I followed a little more, but was then totally mortified to hear they were closing down Dynamix. It's been a while since all that and can't remember exactly what was going on in my head, but something along the lines of, "maybe I can get that engine cheap now since they won't exist any longer..."

I made some more calls and actually ended up getting told that it wouldn't be possible. I can no longer remember exactly how it went down, but I was told that the code had been retained by some of the original employees. Part of the conversation, however, was totally unexpected. I was told to keep my ears open and watch for news. Several months later, Garage Games was born, and my dream engine became available. It took a bit of time to find out so I'm not one of the first, but I joined literally "as soon as I found out."

That is when things didn't quite go right. My dream engine was available for a great price, but I no longer had the income to sustain anything, and spent most of my spare time doing odd PC jobs to make ends meet. The economy has been cruel to me, not so much that I have lost everything, but just enough that it taunted me, never quite poor, but never much above paycheck to paycheck. When you have a family something usually comes up that is a bit more valuable than "some game engine." So I sat back, read anything in the forums that wasn't locked and just tried to keep tabs on the community, one day I would get to join in.

Interestingly GG got a lot of bad press internally (boards) and externally precisely because some of the people who could afford the engine shouldn't have been playing with a full featured triple A engine. Those would be some of those aforementioned hobbyists. Yet, people continued to make games with it, and it continued to improve. I lost track of GG here and there, but always seemed to gravitate back here. Even with the bad news, I was hesitant, but never pushed away. It was always disheartening to see people flame each other because of this, or that, or some other engine getting argued back and forth instead all that energy being spent on figuring out how to make Torque better.

In the intervening years I managed to begin to set aside a little bit here and there and finally decided I was going to get serious and buy an engine. When you don't quite have enough, the big little things seem hard, so you have to examine your coffee budgets...

I began paying closer attention to the forums of various engines, examined their feature sets, read all the flame wars (wow... those got pretty vicious, and usually pointless) and started trying to decide on a good feature set. I had them pared down to C4 or Torque. I still had this leaning toward torque, but what happened was that Minions of Mirth came out (or more precisely that they had sold over 50,000 units - oddly I know I had heard of it, but it wasn't until it hit as a big seller that it really caught my attention). An MMO built on torque. While I'm not interested in an MMO per-se (large numbers of players at once yes, but.. not quite that many...) It proved that Torque had a robust engine, and still had some real power to it. I was pretty close to sold...well I was sold, but I was still trying to figure somethings out, after all, at this point Torque was getting long in the tooth.

I poked around, tried to explore a few more features to ensure that whichever engine I chose could handle as close to my vision as was possible. TSE was in beta, and soon to become available. It was at this point that I made my final jump. Atlas was going to give me the mammoth sized terrain/terrain paging that I wanted, and an MMO had been made with it, and best of all torque had a great price point.
My decisions were quickly supported when an MMO-kit became available, and then sometime later, Minions of Mirth released their source to the public. Of course, now that I had keys I also began to find an even greater wealth of community driven resources which could be integrated. Most everything I wanted someone had created a version of and given it freely to the community. Even many of the wonderful content packs were great creations. I quickly grabbed The Flight Game Example and not much later AFX.

However nearer the present, the real question comes back to me, what have I done with it? Compiled, edited, tinkered, hacked around, even messed with the MoM kit. Have I built a game? No. Do I still want to? Yes. I still have a dream I hope to one day complete.
So, am I being served by the tech? Is it serving me? These are really still up in the air. I don't have the time I would like to dedicate to learning the engine the way I should. I have continued to run into "tool problems", and get frustrated, so end up doing little more than "modding." Of course there were some hurdles along the way, from a non-existant SVN, to a few missing files, and of course the older documentation which didn't quite work when followed.
So for me tools are a big hope for future updates. On the other hand, each time I fire up a new version of torque I am amazed by the improvements made in each iteration. The documentation seem to have been greatly cleaned and improved thanks to our resident doc guy Michael Perry. I personally thank you for the huge improvements in the docs, they have made my life easier and allowed me to spend more time in the engine, than just figuring it out. These things give me great hope for a bright future in the Garage.


Why did I choose Torque (no particular order):
1) The community, part of it's exceedingly low price meant there were tons of people (including people who really should not be here...) so there were always people around to comment, help, and contribute... that third was what really sold me. The people here are helpful and many of them have never shipped a game, but have been extremely creative in their "hobby" and returned it as a contribution for free. That third, those people especially those who went on to become associates. If the price goes too high, many people who would normally have contributed back with resources and ideas will be far more reticent to do so because their investment would be better returned by making a content pack with their idea(s.)
2) The price was great. you can't shake a stick at it. At the time I was making my final tech decision C4 looked better, and was 50-100 dollars less than TSE(TGEA.) The community was simply too small, and there was much promised, but it wasn't yet there. In retrospect I do wish I had purchased a license, but I would not have traded Torque for C4. On the other hand, right now C4 is more expensive than Torque and it should really be commensurate, Torque is a better, more tested product, even if it doesn't have a newer code base or quite the same polish with a better stronger community. My comments are in no way meant to disparage C4, it's a great engine, and its already a competitor, and likely to continue to compete in the future.
3) It was one of the few engines that had shipped a AAA title, and had many other shipped/completed games. It has a successful MMO built using Torque technology. Many many more games are continually being created and released, not just fun and free, but also those which are commercially successful.
4) The network code... Another huge sale for me, show me another engine that can easily handle over 100 players, most of whom were still using modems. This is still the main reason I have stuck with Torque. Its efficient and powerful, back in the day, the only thing I wanted from this engine was it's networking code. You can get it for pennies, and it's worth its weight in gold, when printed out that is...
5) Content packs. I'm not sure how much more can be said on the subject, but the content packs are beautiful, and many of them are priced very reasonably. Take a peek at all you can learn from others who have done all the hard work of integrating various resources into Torque.

In closing, I understand the logic, prefer something in the $500 or lower range, understand if it goes north, but for anything above $500, significant tools and streamlining must occur...and will likely be without my fiscal involvement.
I prefer not to be a statistic, firmly clinging to the belief that one day I will do something more with what I have in my hands than just dream...but I do need to occasionally be realistic, at least in regards to this specific topic. My opus might never get completed, but I'm going to stick around to at least attempt it. I still have my TGEA license and will be able to use it even if T3D goes beyond my present means.
... And I will likely continue to hang about in the webby corners lurking... I hope to continue lurking for many years to come...

#350 Feature Delta is a deal killer for me.

If I'm gonna work with an engine then I want to develop with the engine in the form it will ship in not have to go back and buy the other half of the engine. so that I can get the game to a finished state. That is BS. This is exactly one of the reasons I didn't get Unity. You said it yourself no shaders and blobby shadows suck.

that and 1.8 was announced.



I think that that 500 for the indie license may as high as $599 But it has to be the whole deal and the pipeline must be proven. No relying on community members to hobble tools and exporters together.

#351 If only there was a layaway plan, or a downpayment option before the release date.

#352 Here's what I think:

I love Torque.
No... I love Garagegames **AND** TGEA.

Buut, really, I am not a fulltime game programmer.
I am a hobbyst.

I know for sure that capable programmers can create incredible games with TGEA - the Gears of Torque demo is a very convincing proof of that.

But, unfortunately, I am not one of those talented programmers.

I would be incredibly happy if GG would release an ODE capable version of TGEA.
Right now, I think that that is the oly thing TGEA is really behind the most capable competitors.

One can create a nice, fun game, just by placing objects in a level, as long as physics is there.
That would allow us, hobbists, great experiences.
And, to many of us, that is what really matters: accomplish sstuff; make stuff that work... without having to dedicate countless hours - that we don't have - to it.

I would lve to be able to use TGEA for the cration of MOD's, instead of actual games.
I don't even need the source code, as long as it has physics in place, etc...

Also, I guess everyone here would love to be able to release games for the internet, that woul run on a TGEA web-plugin.
I am not talking aboutt IA - I am taling about beng able to deploy a small 3D game on MY OWN wwebsite.

That is why Unity3D looks so promissing...
The only reason II do not have it, is that it doesn't work on Windows.

Don't get me wrong... I love TGEA.
But I would love it more if it had those features.
Besides, I am affraid of having to move to U3D - I don't really care too much about the rendering and the network code.

Cheers,

Rui

#353 ok.. so everybody agrees you guys deserve it. Here here!

But my main concern is what if you overdo it??? If you go to far and kill off to many hobbyist or even low end long development cycle guys (I'd count myself the latter) Then you might not make the return for the raise and end up hurting your user base. There's a long road to walk after something like that happens, in order to recover. I've seen it happen with other software. A rare few survive that kind of mass migration.

I think the price should go up. But I think you should do it in phases. Jack it up to something this year. Improve the software. See what the fall out is, see what the expectations for support and potential new users? becomes. If you feel like the throttle can be opened up more after a year. Update to the software? Raise the price more!

Think of it in terms of Racing a car. You can step on the gas and spin your wheels, or you can ease on the gas and shift your gears and gain some traction.

I can afford any of the scenarios mentioned so far, but I worry about the user base and the community and what would happen to that if they get priced out to quickly. My vote is for a progressive price hike over several years to find your happy zone.

For a start I'd double to triple the current price ranges, keeping the current builds in place. See how that pans out. If everyone is still on board and you don't get the naysayers out in the other camps going "pay 600 bucks? for what? what a piece of .. yada yada" then you can keep going. In the mean time you can use that additional income to improve and "knock off socks", every ones happy? guess what we can do better. Raise the price again based on feedback from the current rate hike.

I'm a don't rock the boat... "too much too quickly" kind of guy. Don't get me wrong. I'm all about rocking the boat, just not to the point that you sink the ship.

#354 GG has already experimented with the licensing in the past months, as all iTorque licensees surely can agree.
I think what would suite T3D much better than a problematic high entry fee is generating development upkeep over the time.
One time fees will never cover that, and GG should have learned that lesson in the past.
Upgrade fees in the middle of major versions also will not work likely as people have not too much faith in GG deliverying the originally advertised product anywhere in time.
At least I do not have it anymore after beeing EA T2D & EA TGEA
I've more faith in Microsoft creating with Windows 7 what Windows Vista should have been according its original planning.
What is definitely required are major version development targets.
What has to be met before 2.x can be rolled out, so its clear what the user pays for, what not.

So my suggested licensing structure to meet indie, funded indie and real business requirements


Indie
-- For the small hobbiest and 2 man team hometinkerer
-- $600 per seat, company <= $100k revenue & external funding, $150 per title royality, 1 title included
-- Free updates within the same major (1.x, ...)
-- Strongly reduced price to the next major, lower reduction to the next-next majo

Commercial
-- For funded teams, small independent studios
-- $3000 per seat, company > $100k revenue & external funding, $750 per title royality, 1 title included
-- Free updates within the same major (1.x, ...)
-- Strongly reduced price to the next major, lower reduction to the next-next major

Business
-- For the big boys, that GG intends to target
-- per title site license, $30'000-$100'000, no royality but only 1 game per license.
-- Unlimited upgrades
-- Professional support

#355 I don't envy the path GG has to tread here, and I applaud you and the staff for wading in and trying to address people's concerns directly.

But who, exactly, is T3D's target market? Can you define the "serious" indie?

A few posts back, in comparing T3D and Unity, you made the point that Unity indie seemed to be heading more in the casual direction. You also commented on giving indie developers the tools to make innovative games with depth.

So based on how you define these terms, I'm trying to figure out if I factor at all in your future user base. I actually don't think the industry needs another flashy FPS, but my notions may be at odds with the credibility you're trying to attain and the level of mass market success you wish T3D titles to have.

I own TGE, TGB and early adopted TSE. I've learned a lot with it over the years, but although I want to, I haven't made anything yet. I get closer and closer the more I learn and the more time I have, but in the strictest sense I'm probably a hobbyist.

I've worked in the game industry, I don't expect everything on a silver platter, I know most indie projects end up vaporware, and I find the community here invaluable (it's what made me buy).

While I'd love to use a top notch 3D engine with lots of bells and whistles, I don't want my game to get killed by the asset crunch that even professional houses struggle to cope with. So I'm trying to focus on a more spartan, stylistic presentation that's more old school than main stream-- something that might be reviewed through an indie portal like gametunnel.com rather than in a full page spread in PC Gamer. So given my (humble?) aspirations, regardless of ability maybe I should be a TGB customer rather than a T3D customer?

I realize perception matters and that you sort of need all the hobos to get off the train so it can run faster, but I'm worried about who gets lumped into this category. In terms of business needs, are you aiming T3D at only those who will execute a near AAA title within a short time frame?

#356 I am sorry for bothering, but here is how I feel and I am sure the guys at GG must khear it.
I mean, no matter how bad things might sound, GG people must hear from us, so that they have a very accurate, REAL feeling of what we really want, what we really need.

So, in VERY SHORT:

* I like Torque
* I am looking forward to seeing Unity3D for windows
* I don't care paying US$ 1,000 to US$ 1,500 for an engine that is compleete enough, eas enough
* I wish Torque had physics (ODE Based)
* I don't like the fact that I had to spend a lot of mone buying manuals for Torque, because I fell like all thoose docsshould come with the engine
* If Torque includes physics and web deployment, then itt will be a no-brainner; if not, then Unity3D is the no-bainner.
* The only reason I am still waiting for Torque to evolve is because Unity 3D doesn't work on windows
* I don't care too much about rendering quality, when I compare Unity 3D and Torque, because even though I think Torque's graphical quallity is better, Unity 3D's is more than good enough
* I hope Torque implements those features ASAP, otherwise I am going to switch to Unity 3D
* I would rather stick with Torque and all the stuff that have learnt so far, as long as Torque implements the physics and good quality manuals

Please, guys, pay attention to what am saying... this is probably how most of us feel about Torque.

The bottom line is: when Unity 3D is released for Windows, things will be a lot more difficult for Torque, because, IMHO, Unity 3D has all that we need; we do not care too much aboout price.

I am just trying to help, and I got this feeling that the guys at GG do not have a clear idea that Unity 3D is competing against Flash AND Torque, not just Torque.

I would go with Unity 3D just for the physics and the ability to deploy gamees onn the web, on my own websites, on any day.

Please, focus on physics and documentation and, if you can, build a webpplugin for it.
I believe hat this is more than simply what I want... it is what will keep Torque alive.

Unity 3D for windows might blow Torque away, because we don't care too much about price, and we want physics - and web plugins, let alone good documentation that is available off the box.

Sorry for being so repetitive... but that is the truth... plain and simple.
I probably am going to trash Torque in favor of Unity 3D, please help me not to do that.

#357 My opinion:

1. Unity does a feature delta, I'm not sure this is appropriate (or really even possible) for Torque 3D if you have the source. One of the reasons we decided NOT to use Unity over TGEA was because Unity had those indie restrictions. If there were no feature restrictions in Unity. then we probably would have chosen them even without source.

2. We would not pay more than $500 for an indie license of Torque 3D (even $450 is going to be tough). Full stop. We don't need web publishing and some of the other stuff it's going to have. Maybe you should offer a non web-publishing price and have a version for that.

3. Torque 3D is about to have alot more competition. Unity3D is about to hit windows, and C4 is nearing a complete feature set which will make it a serious competitor. If you wan't Torque3D to be usable by indies, then it needs to be compared to these markets. If it is the equivalent of C4 but has more/better features, fine, make it a little more expensive than C4. (Keep in mind that while C4 is a little more expensive than TGEA at the moment, you get FREE updates for LIFE with C4).

4. You need to choose your target market and tell us what that is. If you aren't targeting indies anymore then fine. From my understanding this 'used' to be the engine where indies could make a start on games without much of a budget - but it seems you aren't interested in those indies anymore. Bad decision in my opinion and it means you will not be able to t compete with Unity and others, but it's your plan not mine ;).

5. I still haven't seen any features that would make Torque 3D worth $1000 when compared to TGEA, not even double what TGEA costs. Fine you have fixed some of your issues, added some shaders from a community member (which can be done in TGEA anyway) and added some polish to the engine - but this is the sort of thing you would expect from TGEA 1.9 anyway. Maybe you have some other magical features up your sleeve.

6. Perhaps you need to look into different price structures. Keep the base engine pretty cheap, say $350 or $400 for an Indie license with source - and instead of include RTS/Racing kits and extra shaders in the engine, offer these as separate products or 'upgrades' to the engine. So you could have RTS kit for $50 - $100, Racing kit, Web Publishing Kit and so on. This means people that want all of these features will end up paying more, but small indies won't end up paying these extra prices for features they simply don't need.

Anyhow my 2c. Obviously we need to know more about the real features before we can properly decide, but so far it really does just seem like TGEA 1.9

#358 I have to say..

1000 US$ is a c***load of money for a indie developer, and if you start adding splashscreens and engine popups and logo's and watermarks and stuff to make us pay more to release a respectable game without waiting 4 seconds to get in it/annoying watermark (wich annoys the gamer the most, why do that?), then you are (in my eyes) moving outside of the indie market and more into minor/small company market.

Some of us are making (or trying to) games out of our own pockets, spending money on license for maya, photoshop, assets (helps!), and stuff from torque while paying a hefty fee for even using the engine, i mean.. hello, indie's got to eat too..

Just my thoughts, i dont diss you, ofcourse its your choice in the end, but if i didnt say this now, i'd prolly regreat it later :).

#359
May I laugh ?

greetings to all from an ex TGEA licensee =)

#360 The price tag doesn't scare me as long as more care and priority are taken in the development of a real users guide. I purchased Torque 1 year ago and I have to say that the only real beef I have is the lack of GG authored guides, manuals and tutorials. Come on guys, leaving it up to the community to teach themselves how to use your product is no way to do business. This is an awsome product treat it as such.

Not mad, just disapointed.

Good luck and hoorah! for Torque 3D in any case.