Combat in the Age of Conan
by Britton LaRoche · 06/24/2008 (10:40 am) · 18 comments
Age of Conan Blogs
-------------------------------------------
Exploring the Age of Conan
Combat in the Age of Conan
I'm continuing my blog on the Age of Conan "research" project. What makes this game better than World of Warcraft and City of Heroes (in my opinion) is not the cut sceens, the character graphics or the audio dialogs with the NPC. These things are a waste of time and slow me down. They are not fun. Try creating three different characters and running the same missions in Tortage and you will see what I mean. The cut sceens and NPC dialog get old ... fast.
What makes the game fun is simply two things:
1. The combat system
2. The PVP experience.
I think City of Heros would be a much better game than AOC, if NC Soft could learn these two easy lessons. Lets explore the first of the two pillars of Conan's strength. (I'll detail what makes the PVP system special in a future blog)
The Combat System : COMBOS
----------------------------------------------
Taking queues from games like Mortal Kombat and Dance Dance Revolution, Conan introduces a neat feature in their combat system: Combos.
Its not an exageration to think they borrowed the concept from Dance Dance Revolution. Lets take a look at the dance ability in AOC. Like all combos in AOC even the dance ability is controlled by the main bar.
Two Handed Main Bar
Press the dance ability and then one of the directional keys in the main bar (1-3) You will see the following appear in the center left of your screen.
Dance Combo
This image on your screen is telling you is what key to press next. You have about a second to press it. If you do it in the time allowed then the next key in the sequence gets hilighted. To make my barbarian start break dancing (litterally) I press the following key sequences as indicated in the picture above.
key 2
key 1
A new sequence will appear (by pressing another 1-3 key) shortly after I complete the first sequence. I press those keys properly and my barbarian is doing "the worm" head stands, flips and more.
--------------------------------------
-- Combat
--------------------------------------
Main Bar Butcher Combos
--------------------------------------
The two handed combos given out as my Barbarian progressed are show in the main bar slots (4,5,6) seen below. I dragged and dropped these new combos into my main bar so they would be in this position. The combos add extra damage to all the two handed attacks and they have their sequences. The sequences do not change, so you can learn them easily with a little practice.
Two Handed Main Bar
I start with butcher III by pressing key 4. The image below appears center left on my screen telling me to press key 3 next
Butcher III Combo
I press key 3 then follow with butcher II by pressing key 5 after butcher III completes. The image below appears center left on my screen telling me to press key 3 next
Butcher II Combo
I press key 3 then follow with butcher IV by pressing key 6 after butcher II completes. The image below appears center left on my screen telling me to press key 1 next.
Butcher IV Combo
After I press key 1, key three is highlighted next.
So the whole Butcher III, Butcher II, Butcher IV sequence is this:
4,3 [Pause] 5,3 [Pause] 6,1,3
The damage dealt is fantastic and with feat training increasing the percentage the barbarian is wreaking havok on his foes. Below we see my barbarian Hadrain inflicting nearly 700 hp of damage with one of the 3 combos.
When you execute the combo correctly, the combo name is displayed in orange as is the damage it inflicted.
NOTE: The real magic of my barbarian is not in the main bar its in the feats I trained and placed in my alt bar. You can get the details on the true keys to PVP power here. Exploring the Age of Conan
Great Game Play = Simple Code Changes
------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure it was no great effort to code in the combo system. The great accomplishment was in all the artwork, the level design the music and things that an independent developer does not have access too. But thats not where the fun comes from. It comes from the simple combo code and the way the player interacts with it.
I'd bet you money that the same concept can easly be applied to the Torque Game Builder, and that a 2D RTS with the same concepts (that plays on the Iphone) would be just as fun.
Lets just say that NC Soft and Blizzard should learn a lesson from this. I know I did and I'm just an indie.
The Current (level 42) Main Bar and Combo
-------------------------------------------------------
I took snapshots for blog consistency of Hadrian in his 30's. Now he is level 42, and his main bar is more complex. Below we have the mainbar with Butcher I - Butcher V. The combos work well, but again they a second rate compared to the feat trained powers on the alt bar. See Exploring the Age of Conan for the feat trained explanation. The main bar can be interrupted by enemy attack. The alt bar is pure one sided attacks where my foe can do nothing but take the abuse.
The idea here (in the main bar) is that you can enhance your combos with feat powers and string them together for a series of combos that take down foes much quicker than the standard strikes. It would be nice to have a dynamic combo system where one combo leads to a choice between moves that fit nicely together (and thus can lead to a unique strings of combinations). AoC does not have this feature. But it does have this:
Two Handed Main (Butcher I-V) Bar: Level 42
4,3 [Pause] 5,3 [Pause] 6,3 [Pause] 7,1,3 [Pause] 8,2,3
Nothing lives long enough for me to complete the entire sequence, but thats what it would be. Sometimes the full sequence is used against more than one foe. The last foe usually gets the 7 and 8 combos (the butcher IV and V have the most damage) Perhaps making those first would be an improvement.
Note: I tried changing the order last night with Butcher V and Butcher IV in slots 4 and 5, and I was murdered. I use keys 4 and 5 all the time. There was just enough server lag to slow me down, and cause the butcher V and IV combos to fail occasionally. I had no idea how much I need the combos, until I lost them.
Why are they so important? It has to do with level advancement, the spell casters at 42+ are killing me. I used to clobber them with my eyes closed. Now, the spell casters heal so fast that I need the damage bonus to bring them down. Using the Butcher IV and V first for every attack slowed me down enough that with the the occasional server lag I died 9 out of 10 battles.
I switched key 4 to Butcher III, and key 5 to butcher II which have a single key combo, and I was back in business. I still use butcher IV and V they are just not my main attack.
Luctus [Avg Damage 80 pts]
The combos more than tripple my damage. As you see in the combat pic above, butcher II gives me 320+ damage on a similar weapon.
Aside from combos, I just got this 96% stamina tap to take care of the enemy attack abilities. I will try this next. Looking for a Mana tap.
Fatiguing Iron Great Sword [96% stamina tap]
Got it!
Draining Iron Great Sword [96% Mana tap]
-------------------------------------------
Exploring the Age of Conan
Combat in the Age of Conan
I'm continuing my blog on the Age of Conan "research" project. What makes this game better than World of Warcraft and City of Heroes (in my opinion) is not the cut sceens, the character graphics or the audio dialogs with the NPC. These things are a waste of time and slow me down. They are not fun. Try creating three different characters and running the same missions in Tortage and you will see what I mean. The cut sceens and NPC dialog get old ... fast.
What makes the game fun is simply two things:
1. The combat system
2. The PVP experience.
I think City of Heros would be a much better game than AOC, if NC Soft could learn these two easy lessons. Lets explore the first of the two pillars of Conan's strength. (I'll detail what makes the PVP system special in a future blog)
The Combat System : COMBOS
----------------------------------------------
Taking queues from games like Mortal Kombat and Dance Dance Revolution, Conan introduces a neat feature in their combat system: Combos.
Its not an exageration to think they borrowed the concept from Dance Dance Revolution. Lets take a look at the dance ability in AOC. Like all combos in AOC even the dance ability is controlled by the main bar.
Two Handed Main Bar Press the dance ability and then one of the directional keys in the main bar (1-3) You will see the following appear in the center left of your screen.
Dance ComboThis image on your screen is telling you is what key to press next. You have about a second to press it. If you do it in the time allowed then the next key in the sequence gets hilighted. To make my barbarian start break dancing (litterally) I press the following key sequences as indicated in the picture above.
key 2
key 1
A new sequence will appear (by pressing another 1-3 key) shortly after I complete the first sequence. I press those keys properly and my barbarian is doing "the worm" head stands, flips and more.
--------------------------------------
-- Combat
--------------------------------------
Main Bar Butcher Combos
--------------------------------------
The two handed combos given out as my Barbarian progressed are show in the main bar slots (4,5,6) seen below. I dragged and dropped these new combos into my main bar so they would be in this position. The combos add extra damage to all the two handed attacks and they have their sequences. The sequences do not change, so you can learn them easily with a little practice.
Two Handed Main Bar I start with butcher III by pressing key 4. The image below appears center left on my screen telling me to press key 3 next
Butcher III ComboI press key 3 then follow with butcher II by pressing key 5 after butcher III completes. The image below appears center left on my screen telling me to press key 3 next
Butcher II ComboI press key 3 then follow with butcher IV by pressing key 6 after butcher II completes. The image below appears center left on my screen telling me to press key 1 next.
Butcher IV ComboAfter I press key 1, key three is highlighted next.
So the whole Butcher III, Butcher II, Butcher IV sequence is this:
4,3 [Pause] 5,3 [Pause] 6,1,3
The damage dealt is fantastic and with feat training increasing the percentage the barbarian is wreaking havok on his foes. Below we see my barbarian Hadrain inflicting nearly 700 hp of damage with one of the 3 combos.
When you execute the combo correctly, the combo name is displayed in orange as is the damage it inflicted.
NOTE: The real magic of my barbarian is not in the main bar its in the feats I trained and placed in my alt bar. You can get the details on the true keys to PVP power here. Exploring the Age of Conan
Great Game Play = Simple Code Changes
------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure it was no great effort to code in the combo system. The great accomplishment was in all the artwork, the level design the music and things that an independent developer does not have access too. But thats not where the fun comes from. It comes from the simple combo code and the way the player interacts with it.
I'd bet you money that the same concept can easly be applied to the Torque Game Builder, and that a 2D RTS with the same concepts (that plays on the Iphone) would be just as fun.
Lets just say that NC Soft and Blizzard should learn a lesson from this. I know I did and I'm just an indie.
The Current (level 42) Main Bar and Combo
-------------------------------------------------------
I took snapshots for blog consistency of Hadrian in his 30's. Now he is level 42, and his main bar is more complex. Below we have the mainbar with Butcher I - Butcher V. The combos work well, but again they a second rate compared to the feat trained powers on the alt bar. See Exploring the Age of Conan for the feat trained explanation. The main bar can be interrupted by enemy attack. The alt bar is pure one sided attacks where my foe can do nothing but take the abuse.
The idea here (in the main bar) is that you can enhance your combos with feat powers and string them together for a series of combos that take down foes much quicker than the standard strikes. It would be nice to have a dynamic combo system where one combo leads to a choice between moves that fit nicely together (and thus can lead to a unique strings of combinations). AoC does not have this feature. But it does have this:
Two Handed Main (Butcher I-V) Bar: Level 424,3 [Pause] 5,3 [Pause] 6,3 [Pause] 7,1,3 [Pause] 8,2,3
Nothing lives long enough for me to complete the entire sequence, but thats what it would be. Sometimes the full sequence is used against more than one foe. The last foe usually gets the 7 and 8 combos (the butcher IV and V have the most damage) Perhaps making those first would be an improvement.
Note: I tried changing the order last night with Butcher V and Butcher IV in slots 4 and 5, and I was murdered. I use keys 4 and 5 all the time. There was just enough server lag to slow me down, and cause the butcher V and IV combos to fail occasionally. I had no idea how much I need the combos, until I lost them.
Why are they so important? It has to do with level advancement, the spell casters at 42+ are killing me. I used to clobber them with my eyes closed. Now, the spell casters heal so fast that I need the damage bonus to bring them down. Using the Butcher IV and V first for every attack slowed me down enough that with the the occasional server lag I died 9 out of 10 battles.
I switched key 4 to Butcher III, and key 5 to butcher II which have a single key combo, and I was back in business. I still use butcher IV and V they are just not my main attack.
Luctus [Avg Damage 80 pts]The combos more than tripple my damage. As you see in the combat pic above, butcher II gives me 320+ damage on a similar weapon.
Aside from combos, I just got this 96% stamina tap to take care of the enemy attack abilities. I will try this next. Looking for a Mana tap.
Fatiguing Iron Great Sword [96% stamina tap]Got it!
Draining Iron Great Sword [96% Mana tap]
#2
To be quite honest, I don't understand why there hasn't realy been any innovation in online combat. There just seems to be tiny babysteps and never "wow, this new combat system is amazing!" To me, the AoC system is no real exception. It basically takes the sub-system of EQ2 and adds a flavor of Dance Dance Revolution.
Is the lack of groundbreaking innovation MMO combat systems attributed to fear of adoption rate of the masses? Lack of actually innovation in the dev industry? Pressure from publishers/vc/producers to create "more of the same", or is it just that technically hard to implement anything more than a combat toggle with a bit too much client-side trust in limited tactical interaction?
06/24/2008 (11:21 am)
I know I generally have the role of "guy with the jaded response", so I won't disappoint, lol.To be quite honest, I don't understand why there hasn't realy been any innovation in online combat. There just seems to be tiny babysteps and never "wow, this new combat system is amazing!" To me, the AoC system is no real exception. It basically takes the sub-system of EQ2 and adds a flavor of Dance Dance Revolution.
Is the lack of groundbreaking innovation MMO combat systems attributed to fear of adoption rate of the masses? Lack of actually innovation in the dev industry? Pressure from publishers/vc/producers to create "more of the same", or is it just that technically hard to implement anything more than a combat toggle with a bit too much client-side trust in limited tactical interaction?
#3
But you are right! The idea is that if you keep your combos 1-6 of enraging strike (or in my case butcher) all in a row will make you a killing machine. Add to that feat training that makes my butcher combos more powerful and watch out!
Lets just say I'm investigating the Salvo bow combos on my Ranger. I was told that you can turn your Rangers arrows into a machine gun by using the Salvo Combos all in a row on your main bar.
.
06/24/2008 (11:21 am)
@Scott, you have a limited number of slots, so AOC will auto replace them if it thinks you need a higher level combo...But you are right! The idea is that if you keep your combos 1-6 of enraging strike (or in my case butcher) all in a row will make you a killing machine. Add to that feat training that makes my butcher combos more powerful and watch out!
Lets just say I'm investigating the Salvo bow combos on my Ranger. I was told that you can turn your Rangers arrows into a machine gun by using the Salvo Combos all in a row on your main bar.
.
#4
Ground breaking combat systems take a lot of time and money, and worse it may require a huge learning curve for the player. I'm not saying it should not be done. I'm just saying that there is a lot of power in simple concepts that anyone including an indie game developer can take advantage of.
06/24/2008 (11:26 am)
@Brian, thats my whole point. You don't need anything but simple baby steps to add a whole new dimention of fun to a game. Ground breaking combat systems take a lot of time and money, and worse it may require a huge learning curve for the player. I'm not saying it should not be done. I'm just saying that there is a lot of power in simple concepts that anyone including an indie game developer can take advantage of.
#5
06/24/2008 (11:28 am)
Interesting. I think I have some tinkering to do now when I get home. Time to download an AoC profile for my G15 and put its efficiency to use.
#6
I definitely see the angle you are point out. And for some/most, thats enough. Perhaps I've just been through too many generations of online play that it takes more than gradual tweaks to the concepts to keep my interest anymore.
Perhaps I'm at a point that only full generational evolutions of games are what it takes anymore to impress me/keep my interest (MUDDs -> UO -> EQ -> WoW). Perhaps thats the techie/bit-head in me. And it seems the years between generations is getting longer. We are aproaching WoW's 4th aniversary and I don't think there is even a next-gen MMO on the radar at this point. Perhaps that's just it, the age of major innovation is over and we are gonna see the generations trickle in feature-by-feature, rather than hit in a flash...
06/24/2008 (12:26 pm)
@BrittonI definitely see the angle you are point out. And for some/most, thats enough. Perhaps I've just been through too many generations of online play that it takes more than gradual tweaks to the concepts to keep my interest anymore.
Perhaps I'm at a point that only full generational evolutions of games are what it takes anymore to impress me/keep my interest (MUDDs -> UO -> EQ -> WoW). Perhaps thats the techie/bit-head in me. And it seems the years between generations is getting longer. We are aproaching WoW's 4th aniversary and I don't think there is even a next-gen MMO on the radar at this point. Perhaps that's just it, the age of major innovation is over and we are gonna see the generations trickle in feature-by-feature, rather than hit in a flash...
#7
06/24/2008 (12:40 pm)
This kind of interaction should be explored a little more by investigative adventure games. "Indigo Prophecy" did that in a very unique and interesting way. You're not there in the 3D world, you're not really interacting with the world. But the game makes you do "gesture" with mouse and kbd, as if you're really grabbing things, turning around, etc., nicely increasing immersion.
#8
Okami had a nice implementation of gestures as well. I haven't tried the Wii version yet though, I can only imagine them being even better...
06/24/2008 (1:55 pm)
@AdibOkami had a nice implementation of gestures as well. I haven't tried the Wii version yet though, I can only imagine them being even better...
#9
In particular: like World of Warcraft, Everquest, etc., nothing is really happening -- the entire world is at a stand still -- same quests, same quest givers, same quest locations, same monsters in the same locations... same, same, same. And there's no good reason for it. Even Ultima Online (10 years ago!) at least had random monster encampment placement out in the wilderness.
What I want to see is, at the very least:
1) Quest givers get changed and updated on occasion... For example, maybe Bob got mugged and died of complications. So his wife takes over for Bob and give Bob's quests. And now she gives an additional quest, to exact revenge on Bob's muggers.
2) Quests change occasionally; out with the old, in with the new. I seriously doubt that I would hang around asking for yet another 30 turtle hides, once I got all 13,500 that I needed... =P
3) Random monster encampment placement! I mean, why are the Defias camps always in exactly the same spots...? And they're all just standing around...? Why aren't they actually going out and robbing people? (They should be over there burgling Goldshire and backstabbing noobs...)
4) Dungeon populations get adjusted/changed on occasion. To use World of Warcraft as an example again, after Burning Crusade was released, all the old epic dungeons were put on /ignore. No one wants to (or needs to) go visit Molten Core or Dire Maul anymore. So put something new in those neglected dungeons -- new creatures, new bosses, etc. Oh and it's a great opportunity to open up new areas within those dungeons too; have a wall cave in or something... a previously locked door is now open... etc...
5) Finally, do not neglect the "newbie" areas -- in a real dynamic world, these areas will change as well: New quests, new areas, etc. And people don't just stop playing in these areas... Once again, in World of Warcraft, there are large unused areas in and in-between the zones in the pre-expansion world. These areas should be put to use to provide new content to lower level characters. (And for one thing, not everyone is able or willing to participate in the high-level/"end-game" content... give those people something to do.)
I think with only a little forethought and planning -- and with little additional effort -- MMORPG developers could provide much more interesting living worlds. Especially if you're making the kind of bank Blizzard is... Hell, they should even be able to pay for a sufficient number of GMs to stage live events on a regular basis. That would be huge!
(Sorry, that may have become a little "ranty" in spots, but I think you get the idea, right?)
06/24/2008 (3:59 pm)
I've been playing AoC as well. And yes, while I do find the combat system to be somewhat cool, I would like to see something more. (Like Soul Calibur's style of combat in an MMORPG... THAT would be amazing.) As for the rest of the game... It's really just a (semi-)pretty retread of everything that's come before. In particular: like World of Warcraft, Everquest, etc., nothing is really happening -- the entire world is at a stand still -- same quests, same quest givers, same quest locations, same monsters in the same locations... same, same, same. And there's no good reason for it. Even Ultima Online (10 years ago!) at least had random monster encampment placement out in the wilderness.
What I want to see is, at the very least:
1) Quest givers get changed and updated on occasion... For example, maybe Bob got mugged and died of complications. So his wife takes over for Bob and give Bob's quests. And now she gives an additional quest, to exact revenge on Bob's muggers.
2) Quests change occasionally; out with the old, in with the new. I seriously doubt that I would hang around asking for yet another 30 turtle hides, once I got all 13,500 that I needed... =P
3) Random monster encampment placement! I mean, why are the Defias camps always in exactly the same spots...? And they're all just standing around...? Why aren't they actually going out and robbing people? (They should be over there burgling Goldshire and backstabbing noobs...)
4) Dungeon populations get adjusted/changed on occasion. To use World of Warcraft as an example again, after Burning Crusade was released, all the old epic dungeons were put on /ignore. No one wants to (or needs to) go visit Molten Core or Dire Maul anymore. So put something new in those neglected dungeons -- new creatures, new bosses, etc. Oh and it's a great opportunity to open up new areas within those dungeons too; have a wall cave in or something... a previously locked door is now open... etc...
5) Finally, do not neglect the "newbie" areas -- in a real dynamic world, these areas will change as well: New quests, new areas, etc. And people don't just stop playing in these areas... Once again, in World of Warcraft, there are large unused areas in and in-between the zones in the pre-expansion world. These areas should be put to use to provide new content to lower level characters. (And for one thing, not everyone is able or willing to participate in the high-level/"end-game" content... give those people something to do.)
I think with only a little forethought and planning -- and with little additional effort -- MMORPG developers could provide much more interesting living worlds. Especially if you're making the kind of bank Blizzard is... Hell, they should even be able to pay for a sufficient number of GMs to stage live events on a regular basis. That would be huge!
(Sorry, that may have become a little "ranty" in spots, but I think you get the idea, right?)
#10
I agree totally. The weak spots you mention are all part of the PVE problems of Real Time Strategy (RTS). To be honest I hate PVE and RTS. I am and always will be a First Person Shooter (FPS) and Player Versus Player (PVP) guy.
Why?
1. RTS just seems wrong... I roll to see if I hit. It should be based on my aiming skill as a player. I feel that takes control away from me.
2. PVP is always fresh. The goons are ganking me, and they'd rob me if they could. They learn and adapt to my strategy. Its never ever the same battle twice against another human. And yes, there is an unspoken automatic revenge quest for me, I'm gonna get that [bleep] that just ganked me.
So all your points above are valid for RTS and PVE, you need to update monsters, you need to update quests (or at least add some sort of randomness) or it gets stale.
Thats a perfect lead in to my next blog. PVP is better in age of Conan than it is in City of Heros and WOW, and thats why I like AOC better. AOC is nothing new on the MMORPG scene except for combos and what they have done with PVP.
.
06/24/2008 (4:11 pm)
@Kevin,I agree totally. The weak spots you mention are all part of the PVE problems of Real Time Strategy (RTS). To be honest I hate PVE and RTS. I am and always will be a First Person Shooter (FPS) and Player Versus Player (PVP) guy.
Why?
1. RTS just seems wrong... I roll to see if I hit. It should be based on my aiming skill as a player. I feel that takes control away from me.
2. PVP is always fresh. The goons are ganking me, and they'd rob me if they could. They learn and adapt to my strategy. Its never ever the same battle twice against another human. And yes, there is an unspoken automatic revenge quest for me, I'm gonna get that [bleep] that just ganked me.
So all your points above are valid for RTS and PVE, you need to update monsters, you need to update quests (or at least add some sort of randomness) or it gets stale.
Thats a perfect lead in to my next blog. PVP is better in age of Conan than it is in City of Heros and WOW, and thats why I like AOC better. AOC is nothing new on the MMORPG scene except for combos and what they have done with PVP.
.
#11
I run a large database for the game at http://aoc.mmodb.com so I know the game pretty well. All in all I think its a solid game. Some cool innovations, some other steps backward. I wound up playing a caster class though in-game because I couldn't stand the combo system. My other main gripe would be that the game was so badly rushed that there isn't near enough quests to level up without grinding. Still, despite those issues the game is doing pretty well, so it's obviously doing something right.
06/24/2008 (4:47 pm)
Personally, I think Conan's combat system was a step backwards in a lot of ways. Now it's nice that the combat is faster paced. It's nice that there are things like fatalities or random events that can happen during the battles per class. But the fact is that you now have to click up to 6 or so buttons at higher levels to do what you used to be able to do with one button. It's fluff IMO. I run a large database for the game at http://aoc.mmodb.com so I know the game pretty well. All in all I think its a solid game. Some cool innovations, some other steps backward. I wound up playing a caster class though in-game because I couldn't stand the combo system. My other main gripe would be that the game was so badly rushed that there isn't near enough quests to level up without grinding. Still, despite those issues the game is doing pretty well, so it's obviously doing something right.
#12
I missed out on the early beta, but from what I gather the original combo system was what I expected/wanted it to be, but it was deemed too complicated/difficult by testers so they simplified the process. If my understanding is right, the original system allowed you to mix/match your combos, with each step in the sequence having more than one possible next key which would open the door to situational decision making mid-combo. On the whole a much more dynamic and challenging system. I only have word of mouth and occasionally forays into the beta forums to base that on though, so forgive me if I'm wrong.
As it stands, I got bored with it very quickly. I macro'd my combos on day one, why press the same multi-key sequences ad nauseum when one key suffices? Do that and you'll realise very quickly how little combos actually bring to the game. There's no variation, no dynamic and no real skill involved in performing them (you're prompted on screen and given plenty of time to complete the sequence).
On top of that, it's not like the use of macros is even worth discouraging. I can't react faster, kill faster or even make less errors. It's essentially basic labour saving, you could argue the combo system is a step back, extra keypresses for the sake of pressing keys... Mortal Kombat and games of that ilk require a degree of skill, research and practice to perform combos, AoC has more in common with keyboard training software.
New game, new challenges, good PvP. Combos? Emperor's new clothes (in my opinion).
EDIT: Heh, JC nipped in and stole my thunder much more succinctly while I was typing. Owell, least I don't feel so alone in my opinion now.
06/24/2008 (5:23 pm)
I seem to be out on my own on this one, but I've been incredibly disappointed by AoC's combat system and the much hyped combos. Peel away the pretty graphics and the distraction of pressing more than one button to do a "special move" you're left with nothing new at all. Press button(s), do attack, learn the best order to do them... essentially identical to its forerunners, the notion that this is some step forward is just hype.I missed out on the early beta, but from what I gather the original combo system was what I expected/wanted it to be, but it was deemed too complicated/difficult by testers so they simplified the process. If my understanding is right, the original system allowed you to mix/match your combos, with each step in the sequence having more than one possible next key which would open the door to situational decision making mid-combo. On the whole a much more dynamic and challenging system. I only have word of mouth and occasionally forays into the beta forums to base that on though, so forgive me if I'm wrong.
As it stands, I got bored with it very quickly. I macro'd my combos on day one, why press the same multi-key sequences ad nauseum when one key suffices? Do that and you'll realise very quickly how little combos actually bring to the game. There's no variation, no dynamic and no real skill involved in performing them (you're prompted on screen and given plenty of time to complete the sequence).
On top of that, it's not like the use of macros is even worth discouraging. I can't react faster, kill faster or even make less errors. It's essentially basic labour saving, you could argue the combo system is a step back, extra keypresses for the sake of pressing keys... Mortal Kombat and games of that ilk require a degree of skill, research and practice to perform combos, AoC has more in common with keyboard training software.
New game, new challenges, good PvP. Combos? Emperor's new clothes (in my opinion).
EDIT: Heh, JC nipped in and stole my thunder much more succinctly while I was typing. Owell, least I don't feel so alone in my opinion now.
#13
I dinged 30 recently on my Templar and it is a lot more fun. It didn't occur to me to use the same skill at different levels in my rotation. I may have to try that!
I also wound up rolling a Tempest and they are rather nice. I can't wait to get the time to work my way out of Tortage with him.
06/24/2008 (5:51 pm)
I think I am gonna keep following your adventures in AoC, Britton.I dinged 30 recently on my Templar and it is a lot more fun. It didn't occur to me to use the same skill at different levels in my rotation. I may have to try that!
I also wound up rolling a Tempest and they are rather nice. I can't wait to get the time to work my way out of Tortage with him.
#14
I have not looked into macros, how do you access that feature? Going to research it.
@Ross and John. Yes the combos are limited, and I think a true dynamic combo system is better. I don't see any combos like AoC has in WoW or CoH. Just my opinion that the combo system and the PVP advances (ignoring being new kid on the block) is why AoC is a better game.
Wait till I tell you why the PVP system is better. Before you judge, read the coming pvp blog. It all fits together nicely, and it has a common theme. Simple changes in code have a big effect in overall game play. You already know the end result of the AoC saga. There is nothing really ground breaking in AoC. It is simply a better game because of small changes working together.
..
06/24/2008 (6:12 pm)
@Ross,I have not looked into macros, how do you access that feature? Going to research it.
@Ross and John. Yes the combos are limited, and I think a true dynamic combo system is better. I don't see any combos like AoC has in WoW or CoH. Just my opinion that the combo system and the PVP advances (ignoring being new kid on the block) is why AoC is a better game.
Wait till I tell you why the PVP system is better. Before you judge, read the coming pvp blog. It all fits together nicely, and it has a common theme. Simple changes in code have a big effect in overall game play. You already know the end result of the AoC saga. There is nothing really ground breaking in AoC. It is simply a better game because of small changes working together.
..
#15
Some people will not like AoC's combat system simply because its more interactive and requires you to pay attention to the game. You can't just push one button or the same button repeatedly and expect to live or accoumplish anything. Of course that style of combat is not for everyone. But for alot of people its a breath of fresh air and bring life to stail old combat system of pressing one button and watching the action for the rest of the combat.
There was a stage in AoC's combat where it did not show you the buttons to press to preform combos and you had to memorize the attack directions for the tooltip on the action. But that proved to much for alot of people so they had to dumb down the system to display the actions that you need to press.
Its also worth mentioning that alot of people that have used AoC's style of combat has a hard time going back to the simple old system of combat. You can see this by posts on all different mmorpg game forums and on the aoc forums where people are having a hard time going back to the old style of click/press a button let the game do the rest for you.
06/24/2008 (10:59 pm)
All games are limited to pushing buttons to do things. Interfaces at this age are just that crude. What else would you like. Push one button and it decides the combat for you? Ultimately combat systems are one or two options. Push one button let the game do everything else for you. Or push multiple buttons to accomplish the action.Some people will not like AoC's combat system simply because its more interactive and requires you to pay attention to the game. You can't just push one button or the same button repeatedly and expect to live or accoumplish anything. Of course that style of combat is not for everyone. But for alot of people its a breath of fresh air and bring life to stail old combat system of pressing one button and watching the action for the rest of the combat.
There was a stage in AoC's combat where it did not show you the buttons to press to preform combos and you had to memorize the attack directions for the tooltip on the action. But that proved to much for alot of people so they had to dumb down the system to display the actions that you need to press.
Its also worth mentioning that alot of people that have used AoC's style of combat has a hard time going back to the simple old system of combat. You can see this by posts on all different mmorpg game forums and on the aoc forums where people are having a hard time going back to the old style of click/press a button let the game do the rest for you.
#16
Anyways, it's a great game ;)
@ Scott Burns
Theres an option that auto-replace old combos/spells in the main + additional bars.
And there seemingly is only one usage for lower combo levels -keyboard hits needed to finish off a mob.
(Meaning dont work on a 3-5 stroke combo, if all you need after initial charge and firing off first one -if theres a chance the mob might kill you)
@ Brian Wilson
For a really stunning complex combat system look at Rune & Halls of Valhalla from Human Head Studios.
This 7-8 year old games melee system is still the best Ive ever seen, but the price is huge packages that also require faster client/server interactions than most mmo's would like to embed (performance hit)
@ Britton LaRoche
Add in those extra rollout bars and you have 'enough' slots ;)
@ Kevin Rogers
I'm going to tjeck out that Soul Calibur game. And your suggestions for dynamically altered quest givers is really good (I'm going to tweak ours in that direction) ;)
And for your mob population and behaviour suggestion -it's allmost as reading my notes :P
@J.C. Smith
I so agree that some of it are backwards steps. Why the permanent bar/rose ? jeez these days things should be moddable. And I agree that the game was rushed. With quests being buggy, some core elements being non working and the class system so uneven that character matching instances makes it impossible for some classes to complete the quests at all the mere grinding becomes tiresome.
@Ross Cook
Was the original idea like that, sure sounds way more like Runes 16.000 possible moves -and it would indeed have been more exiting.
@Thomas Oliver
Try get a version of Rune, you might like the incredibly huge amount of melee interaction ;)
Beside being extremely fond of the size of zones and towns in AoC, and the (in my book) stunning graphics, models, sounds and animations. I'm also extremely annoyed by the uneven class abilities to handle the leveling.
06/25/2008 (7:13 am)
Nice post Britton, this is a good read. And I hope some other mmos along the line will become more and more interactive. But as they dropped the 1 click melee button, it would have been great if it also had developed beyond the D&D class and lvl system where you gather shop points...Anyways, it's a great game ;)
@ Scott Burns
Theres an option that auto-replace old combos/spells in the main + additional bars.
And there seemingly is only one usage for lower combo levels -keyboard hits needed to finish off a mob.
(Meaning dont work on a 3-5 stroke combo, if all you need after initial charge and firing off first one -if theres a chance the mob might kill you)
@ Brian Wilson
For a really stunning complex combat system look at Rune & Halls of Valhalla from Human Head Studios.
This 7-8 year old games melee system is still the best Ive ever seen, but the price is huge packages that also require faster client/server interactions than most mmo's would like to embed (performance hit)
@ Britton LaRoche
Add in those extra rollout bars and you have 'enough' slots ;)
@ Kevin Rogers
I'm going to tjeck out that Soul Calibur game. And your suggestions for dynamically altered quest givers is really good (I'm going to tweak ours in that direction) ;)
And for your mob population and behaviour suggestion -it's allmost as reading my notes :P
@J.C. Smith
I so agree that some of it are backwards steps. Why the permanent bar/rose ? jeez these days things should be moddable. And I agree that the game was rushed. With quests being buggy, some core elements being non working and the class system so uneven that character matching instances makes it impossible for some classes to complete the quests at all the mere grinding becomes tiresome.
@Ross Cook
Was the original idea like that, sure sounds way more like Runes 16.000 possible moves -and it would indeed have been more exiting.
@Thomas Oliver
Try get a version of Rune, you might like the incredibly huge amount of melee interaction ;)
Beside being extremely fond of the size of zones and towns in AoC, and the (in my book) stunning graphics, models, sounds and animations. I'm also extremely annoyed by the uneven class abilities to handle the leveling.
#17
@Thomas - Pressing buttons, multiples or otherwise, isn't really my gripe. The problem really is that they've taken away the reason the multiple button presses where there, because people found it too complicated, but left the interface in place. I'd love to have a true combo system where your decisions and button presses had TRUE influence on the actions performed, but it simply isn't the case in AoC. People are simply being lured into the idea that they're making decisions/influencing combat by repeating the sequences parrot fashion. The whole point is that I can macro the combos, press one button instead of multiple, and it has NO effect whatsoever on gameplay, combat results or success. If that isn't proof that the combo system is meaningless button pressing then nothing is. If the combo system involved any skill, thought or effort then macros would give some advantage and I'd feel obliged not to use them, but they simply don't make any difference (except for the obvious reduction in pointless keypresses).
06/25/2008 (11:16 am)
@Britton - I don't know if there's any built in macro support, as far as I'm aware there isn't. I'm using a G15 keyboard with programmable/recordable macro buttons@Thomas - Pressing buttons, multiples or otherwise, isn't really my gripe. The problem really is that they've taken away the reason the multiple button presses where there, because people found it too complicated, but left the interface in place. I'd love to have a true combo system where your decisions and button presses had TRUE influence on the actions performed, but it simply isn't the case in AoC. People are simply being lured into the idea that they're making decisions/influencing combat by repeating the sequences parrot fashion. The whole point is that I can macro the combos, press one button instead of multiple, and it has NO effect whatsoever on gameplay, combat results or success. If that isn't proof that the combo system is meaningless button pressing then nothing is. If the combo system involved any skill, thought or effort then macros would give some advantage and I'd feel obliged not to use them, but they simply don't make any difference (except for the obvious reduction in pointless keypresses).
#18
Exactly, and this is also precisely what made WoW what it is. But for most out there, WoW was their first MMO so they're not looking further than that and assumes it was such an original idea, yet it had been done a few times before already without their knowledge. It's funny.
06/26/2008 (6:18 am)
Quote:
There is nothing really ground breaking in AoC. It is simply a better game because of small changes working together.
Exactly, and this is also precisely what made WoW what it is. But for most out there, WoW was their first MMO so they're not looking further than that and assumes it was such an original idea, yet it had been done a few times before already without their knowledge. It's funny.
Associate Scott Burns
GG Alumni
The numbered attacks, such as Enraging Strike I - III, my first assumption was that the higher one replaces the previous one. However, considering I had to manually replace them every time the new one became available I was starting to wonder if they were intended not to replace one another, but to be used in succession of each other. What we determined is this line of pondering may be due to my coming in after a certain patch which changed the default setting, as Mich's abilities are automatically replaced by the newer one when he learns it.
Still though, we were trying to figure out if there may be some hidden benefit to using all three in succession, high probability of fatalities or something perhaps. I've toyed with it myself but haven't seen any specifics benefits myself.
Oh yeah, my character in case anyone bumps into me.
Velkar, Cimmerian Conqureor on Set. (lvl 19 at time of writing)