Come work with me!!

#1

Quote:MMO's. Why do people constantly go over the same turf?

I think the ones that do sort of fall victim to their creator's ego. "Man, if I did that game, it would be soooo much better because the elves would, like, fly and stuff...". People say things like that because they don't really understand what makes a world a world. And putting real thought into the horsepower behind an MMO to give it much deeper gameplay takes far too long.

From my own experience, I've been at it for years, and looked at and trashed so many designs trying to get a system that works for what I want the user to be able to do, that it would be financially impossible for other companies to do this- or at least companies with actual overhead. On top of that, I'm still unsure if the more complex gameplay will even work well for the end user when it's released into the wild. Indies have time (and day jobs) on their side, true, but for those who want a quick fix, to show that they too can make WoW, it can't be done. That's what I think is behind the glut of crap MMO's (whether they come from indies or bigger game houses).

For those indies willing to both take bide their time and go out on a limb, they're the ones that are going to make a splash (both good and bad).

#2 Well just starting on my 5th education to improve on my coding skills as well as get a paper on some stuff I know I can do in advance and maybe even learn a new trick or hundred ;)

Anyways, it is exiting to read your posts and blogs as long as you're doing your usual best, and that is brewing together well phrased thoughts about game development. What you do worst, is chanting a bit too often about the 'mmo turf'. Some of us do have ideas for small games, and hip shootings but it is actually rpg in a persistent setting (mmorpg) that drive the clock for some of us.

So, what is it that you claim is out there in every tainted tube video and indie site. Well if it's the old treadmill that more canines are going to use than players, let's see what we can brew up if we are innovative -eh!

Why do players play?
They do it to improve within the limitations of the game!
Some do it to be the first to reach certain limitations, or milestones!!

Why do players stop?
They do so because game mechanics are not aiding them in reaching their goals!
They do so because there is no more excitement within the limitations of the game!!

Why do players flock?
They do so because the game seems to have an innovative wholeness!
They do so because the screenshots, listed features and proclaimed mechanics offer excitement!!

So with the above in mind, I can only agree that to have players flock one needs to be innovative, and the game mechanics needs to work flawlessly and support the innovative game play and extensive content to keep them at the application.
The above solution is as good as impossible for an indie (team) to accommodate, so I fully understand your persistent talk that time should be spent re-making the jungle of innovation that sprawled in the 80's. But as we are at making mmo's lets try defining some things!

A game without classes, purely based on skills that can go up if used and will fade if not being used during game time. These skills are based on a characters stats, resembling constitution, strength, agility, intuition, memory, reasoning, etc. etc. Stats go up and down during game play depending on how the player makes the character perform. So with these moving stats, the skills should also relate a bit to 'how a toon is glued up'. With this I mean a character that is heavily founded in the clerical game play should have an eased up algorithm towards linguistic, heraldry, organization, etc. etc. than one consisting of all strength, agility and constitution who should have a eased up process learning swimming, climbing, weapons, etc. etc.
So making app. 10 stats based on character build, making all the games skills toggle between say 3 groups of skills should make the class free game a working game mechanic.

With a system based solely on game play there is no need for levels where points are collected. Only need for such 'shop points' is that players can dive into areas/skills they never cared to play. And all maths that levels are normally used for ban be done with faction and skill level comparisons.

Quests and loot is another of the big issues and making a quest character faction based as well as stage in the quest based can result in some pretty dynamic surprises for the player that thought all was discovered. Add in a couple of skills that allow the player character (upon success) to tamper their factions, alignments, etc. a bit further and it gets even more interesting.

For realism it could be made so that players were unable to kill the major NPC's and the gods. Instead have the major NPC's and the Gods kneel down in case they get a proper match in strength and wits.

Man I could ramble on forever, but I should actually go to sleep and come back soon to see your replies to those ideas. If you're in for it, some of the entries in Dream Games contest actually do have a large amount of innovation so you should visit their site and have a look at some of the really cool projects.

#3 Hey Phil.

I took a look at EC2 oh maybe a year ago with the very same idea. I can't find my notes now but if I remember correctly here were my concerns:

- Your app runs in a virtual machine so no guarantee on CPU processing power

- If your virtual machine dies then you loose everything. Not a really big deal as you just pull an image from the file server and start again, but you cannot count on any local storage. So for a persistent database you need to be creative with their file storage system or find another way.

- There's still the cost of bandwidth to the outside world

- There's no guarantee as to the quality of the pipe to the outside. I'm thinking of continuous vs. bursty usage here.

Again that's off the top of my head. I'm sure you'll let me know if I've misremembered or misrepresented something. :o)

I too was hoping this would be the savior for those of us who'll need server space for our games. If you find out it really is, please do let me know!

- LightWave Dave

#4 I'd have to agree with David there; bandwidth is what's going to cost you (although it's honestly not THAT expensive anymore). The CPU time is essentially "free" in the grand scheme of things.

I have no idea what this EC2 thing your talking about is, but I'm guessing the "continuous use vs. burst use" thing is an issue. I'm guessing things like EC2 were more designed for situations where response time isn't that particularly important (considered, but not overly prioritized. I could very well be wrong there though).


As for the job, good luck, I'm sure you'll find someone suitable. Have to admit I'm slightly tempted to apply, but then again I most likely don't have the proper "academic credentials" (or whatever), plus I don't particularly fancy moving to the UK... and I'm pretty happy with what I do, so... well... =)

#5 What are EC2 costs per month?

#6 That's the point (apparently) Stephan; It costs nothing per month, it only costs per "CPU hour" and for whatever bandwidth you use. (Google "EC2" for exact costs, should be at the first hit or so).

#7 I'll work with you mhe :D

#8

Quote:MMO's. Why do people constantly go over the same turf?

1. It's different people over time?

2. The first step in creating is recreating what someone else has made but with your own personal touch. That's how it works. That's normal. People who try to be original for the sake of it but haven't even made anything wind up getting nowhere. It's the smart choice to try to re-make what you like. It's how it all starts. Like children who begining to grown up by imatating their parents.

I used to wonder why nobody was interested in making the two types of games with Torque that didn't require hardly any engine changes: Turn Based RPG and Adventure Games. But I finally realised that indies are only going to be interested in making the games they want to play.

#9 See here for the EC2 FAQ.

And darn it Phil, now you've got me looking at it again! :o)

One obvious use for EC2 (or maybe just Amazon's S3 depending on your architecture) would be for a patch server. Find your existing patch server is being hammered following the latest release? Just add some more until the rush dies down.

However I'm not sure how economical EC2 ends up being for an always on game server. Here's some example numbers (feel free to check me on these):

30 days CPU: $0.10 * 24hrs * 30days = $72
2000GB data in for month: $0.10 * 2000GB = $200
2000GB data out for month: $0.18 * 2000GB = $360

Amaon EC2 Total for Month: $632**

Now I've obviously made an assumption on the data transfers in and out. But there's a reason I chose 4000GB total (the even split between in and out was arbitrary). I'd like to compare these numbers with what is offered at WOLFServers, a dedicated server provider that has been recommended to me.

WOLFServers P4 3GHz Dual Core with 4000GB Total for Month: $199

To achieve the same price point with Amazon's EC2 you couldn't go over 900GB per month. And you don't get the same horse power as with the dedicated box.

In the end I'm not so sure about EC2 for a game server. But if you need a server temporarily and won't get beaten down by bandwidth costs, then it could still work out.

- LightWave Dave

** With the EC2 costs I figured that the S3 costs are negligible as you'd just pay for a couple of GBs for storage and nothing in Linux image transfer from S3 to EC2.

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#10 There you go. Proving my point. The CPU time really, really costs basically nothing. (If your server architecture was clever you'd probably end up using less than 72 bucks worth in a month, but as I said; it wouldn't matter much, it's the bandwidth you pay for and in that regard EC2 doesn't look too good).

#11 For some reason when I see these discussions I start thinking about Jerry McGuire. Having a smaller client base, but treating that client base really well. Sooo, maybe a huge MMO is not the answer but smaller MMOs with less overhead. Each MMO could cater to a "flavor" of game play. This could get around the one size fits all syndrome. Maybe we need to call it NSMMO or Not So Massively Multiplayer Online game.

#12 Yea MMO is a term often abused nowdays. Ever since SOE put in an anti player gathering / no unauthorized in game events policy. Making new mmos of just a few characters instead of a server busting and pc lagging 200 crazed maniacs. But that drifts a bit. Micro online games are the future...

Kick these idiot suits out and make some real games. It's like here is your choice "coke or pepsi"..

No coke pepsi!! Anyway the monopoly exists and they want you to grind endless expansions 1000+ empty zones.. yea MMO FEES!..

mini rant off.../

Oh an on the mmo kit uh. You can already scale it like that. You could even have a little linix hehe (they do rent windows svrs too ya know). Anyway just put a SQL server on linix and then run kit on pc and have it connecting to the hot SQL DB server. Instant power scale up from just a flat file db.

#13 Ok, Dave et al: About the EC2 stuff, the virtual server is guaranteed a minimum spec of 1.7ghz and 2gig ram so that should be reasonable. The reason I was interested in it was that you could scale "sideways" out to more servers as load increased, plus if load wasnt there (likely as an indie mmo starting out) your basic costs would be nil. Rather than having lots of ups and downs between "the server is empty" and "the server is too full", you could scale up and down with the user base. Simply not possible in a hosting situation (or maybe it is?, but not in realtime). The point being you could go from 100 players to 10000 and still only be paying for what you use, rather than buying in extra redundancy and be paying over the odds in case you get a spike in players.

But nice research anyway Dave, its not REALLY a solution until they fix a few other issues, like the ability to specify which rack/switch/datacenter your new server instance is hosted in.

I'll let you know if I figure out a different scenario to yours.

Christian: My main issue with a lot of the MMO's is that there is a lot of similarity to them right now. What people dont tend to realize is that as you release more and more similar games, you essentially lock yourself into one niche market. What people should be realizing these days is that you need diversity to really drive interest. Ok, so the vast majority of the template games are coming from Korea, but still, even most of the US based games dont seem to vary from the template too much. At least something like vSide shows potential to break out of being a niche product and making it to a more mainstream audience.

I think to a great extent Anton's right. People make what they see. The trouble is, what they see ALREADY exists. This whole notion of making what you see + improving a bit of it, thats the typical newbie designer mistake. Of course these developers arent by and large, newbies, but they certainly are in terms of thier thinking and positioning. They follow the typical RPG template because they think it sells I would guess. Maybe it even DOES sell, to a point. But it doesnt broaden the market any. The more people who are exposed to these very niche interest MMO's the more the market will push that way. Its like selective breeding, eventually you realize that those pedigree creatures you bred towards a specific goal are now essentially mutated to the point where they cant sustain themselves. Its like a rapidly diminishing gene-pool of MMO thinking.

You talk about skills instead of classes, but its basically the same thing. Especially if a player can measure those in some way (you know, a level bar). I'm talking games that are fundamentally DIFFERENT. Ones that involve a different and diverse notion. Look at vSide and compare it to WOW. THAT kind of different. Compare a tale in the desert to vSide, THAT kind of different. Compare Blockland to a tale in the desert, THAT kind of different. Ok, some of them you might not class as MMO's, but they are persistant worlds (or should be), that offer something for different types of players (vSide's player base is mostly young kids who are interested in music, a tale in the deserts playerbase are online players looking for a non combat base game etc).

Now go and look at the dream games competition players and show me that kind of diversity.

Luckily, there are a few alternatives, but not nearly enough.

#14 "This whole notion of making what you see + improving a bit of it, thats the typical newbie designer mistake. "

Actually I think it's a tried and true practice in just about every field :P Most of the greatest and best selling products on the market today, including most of the best selling games, are just that; relatively small improvements on somebody else's already good idea.

#15

Quote:Actually I think it's a tried and true practice in just about every field :P Most of the greatest and best selling products on the market today, including most of the best selling games, are just that; relatively small improvements on somebody else's already good idea.

But many of the MMO's out there today aren't even improvements, but instead are just rehashed imitations. Everyone starts out with the same pitch: You can do anything you want in my game. And then they go on to list all the features that effectively box the player into the same limited gameplay that all the other games have.

Case in point: There was a thread on here where a person was describing a traditional guild system and all of it's functions, yet said that it was a new, unique system. A lot of people don't even know how to begin to deviate from the norm without just changing the names of races in the game or the terms used for standard features. And never mind the fact that the UI gets no better either...

#16 Well, just as it seems that some of the 'in this community' mmo-makers are having a lot of similar features in their games, and some of them seems to have done less research in the mmo's out there, as well as with research into specific game mechanics.

I actually think that more innovation and diversity 'are in fact in there' than is currently claimed by some in this community that obviously 'see' the mmo projects stick more out than the innovative sprawl that also is there. So, the mmo's aren't 'the soup every noob is builing, but merely a small part of what's being cooked. And, yes it's the classic -we make what we see (*)

Besides that (I did check the mentioned games out, have even played some of them before) diversity might be good for diversity's sake. But, there are actually some core elements in a mmo (PW) that is essential. To say that our dynamic skill system is like levels bringing forth the classic 'shopping point sum' is either lack of understanding of my point, or poorly explained system (As I normally think the value of your posts are high and clever Phil, I assume it's the latter that's the case. The apology, as well as the writing here, might put it into a re-read and another light. In any case I'm not going to elaborate, in but further .blogs).

I do though disagree that 'go see the contest entries for diversity as mentioned' is as lacking as you imply. One could make stuff like Pack Man, Tron, Glass, Rune, Tower Chat, etc. into PW's with a mmorpg feel -but it's just like Picasso, Prince and the local preacher. At some point the squeaking gets more weird than usable. That brings me back to some core things in human behavior that is essential to bind individuals to 'any' treadmill. Be that work, partner, hobby or game. They all need to have elements you can compare 'your efforts' with.

@ Ted
I do find it funny that some of the planned game mechanics in 'my' game which was defined as far back as 2004 is now what are being the goal / way of some of the coming mmos from Indies as well as large studios. And that some of them in fact is what the core of the innovative spin was at Indie Games Con. So don't say that everyone out there is boiling soup on the same carrot please ;)
One thing is good though, debating and turning the stones of game projects in this community brings forth thoughts (Is this the right thing to do), thoughts that would not come at all if no one contested what 'we' do and the mechanics to be.

*As there's by now thousands out there that travelled from the cradle to adulthood playing Pen & Paper RPG, Live Action Role Play (LARP), and Miniature games with their armies and heroes, as well as the RPG games of old. Its logic that flock around an engine they 'think' can make their experience with the above into a game they can play with friends and others out there. Especially as there have been one MMOKIT was hitting around 1500 users, and another one being branded / hyped by the owners of this engine.

#17

Quote:But many of the MMO's out there today aren't even improvements, but instead are just rehashed imitations. Everyone starts out with the same pitch: You can do anything you want in my game. And then they go on to list all the features that effectively box the player into the same limited gameplay that all the other games have.

Oh, no doubt there. I'm certainly not arguing that all or even 1/10th of the MMORPGs out there today are good or were good ideas to invest time and money in. I just have noticed over the years here that there is a fairly pervasive perception that Indies should focus on creating games that are wildly different and innovative, and anything else is to be scoffed at.

The fact is most wildly different and innovative ideas.. well... they're not going to sell because nobody cares. Occasionally a wildly different idea will also be a good idea that will sell a shitload of games... sometimes these even come from Indies... but the odds are against it.

As an Indie with a limited budget is it better to invest an entire project life cycle and all of the time and resources that go with it on an untested idea that may or may not sell any units, or to get a piece of the action in an area where there is already shitloads of market data and millions of potential buyers who are already familiar with the type of gameplay?

I guess it all depends on what your goals are. If your goal is to be a cool Indie and broaden the market, or if you want to become the next RockStar overnight, then it obviously doesn't make sense to walk in the footsteps of the biggies. If your goal is to sell some games, get your feet wet, and grow... then it makes all kinds of sense.

#18

Quote:So don't say that everyone out there is boiling soup on the same carrot please ;)

I never said everyone. I said many. And that really is an accurate assessment, I believe. Not that it's unexpected, but it's still a bit disappointing. There is always a minority of those who are innovating in any field or community. What I think Phil was getting at was that this community was more predisposed to that innovation, and he became disappointed to see that some people who had the flexibility that larger studios did not have in experimenting sort of squander it. And he's right to feel that way.

There's more than a few people working on MMO's here that are only working on clones, and some even working on horribly poor imitations of clones that will (thankfully) never see fruition. Most will die out because those teams won't realize that these projects take time (5+ years and running on mine) until it's too late, and then become disillusioned and quit rather than regroup.

#19

Quote:As an Indie with a limited budget is it better to invest an entire project life cycle and all of the time and resources that go with it on an untested idea that may or may not sell any units, or to get a piece of the action in an area where there is already shitloads of market data and millions of potential buyers who are already familiar with the type of gameplay?

Really good point. I sort of look at it as investing time and money in an idea known to millions of potential buyers but also pushed sufficiently so as to not reach that entire audience, but still (potentially) reach a good number who are looking for something different.

And not that it's completely bad for people to come out with a game that is something of a clone, but an MMO goes well beyond the 40-60 play-hours that an FPS or RTS would have. Hell, a lot of MMO players can exceed that in two weeks (some can do it in two days, but let's not encourage that lot). But when you get into your 200th play hour on Starcraft versus your 200th hour on XXXX-craft (insert generic RTS here), then you'll see people putting those games down. And that's all well and good, because you don't subscribe to an RTS, but you do subscribe to an MMO, and you need to have customer retention to suceed. So while most of the game genre laws of physics carries over, but a few changes are also evident between MMO's and everything else. Maybe that's an area that needs some innovation as well...

#20 Most games in any genre are done before. Yes they can have new elements in them - but most of the ideas and gameplay can be found in simular games.

Yes there is alot that want to make their own mmo, but why is that so special? There is alot that want to make FPS or Racing games - but they dont get the same warning that all is done before.

Offcourse an mmo cant be compared to an fps, because an mmo require alot more to make - but i do belive people know that allready without been told so. :)

Why do so many want to make an mmo? Sure some imagine they can get very very ritch from it, but i think most just want to make an mmo because they love to play mmo's them self.

MMO's are a ballgame on its own. The social aspect is a HUGE part of it, and its one of the main reasons its so pop.
Yes you can chat with others in other games to, but its limited how many at the same time. +its hard to get the same close relasionship to other players because you rarely play alot of hours with the same persons.

Some day i want to make an mmo to. Not to get rich and famous, but because i just looooove mmo's. I dont imagine i will ever earn a dime on it, but that doesnt matter as long as i have fun making it.

It will be like a new baby:
- Love and care for.
- Feeding it new skills and abilitys.
- Find friends to play with the it.
- Expanding its world.
- Neverending "jobb" that never gets done.

:)

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