Great Game Experiment
by David Janssens · 11/29/2006 (5:57 am) · 11 comments
The Great Game Experiment is ... , for lack of a better word, Great. I see it in a way as a big group testing people. Not only the needed beta-tests, but also the group to turn to when you have multiple game ideas bouncing around in your head.
Community sites are hot nowadays, due to buzzword-compliant sites (web 2.0 and AJAX anyone?), but I think the games you play tell a great deal about what games you will like, and how to take criticism. I'll play around on it a bit more, just to make sure I have a good idea of its features.
On another note, I was wondering why so few companies make Linux games. My platform of choice happens to be OpenSUSE, and I know lots of people that really feel bound to Windows due to the lack of games they would like to play. I feel it's the world upside-down when you write a game, and then port it to another platform.
Luckily, GarageGames takes care of the dilemma of what platforms to support, and gives a (community-supported) Linux version. I can live with that. At least, there is a Linux version. What I don't get is that many people make games using the nice tools here, and target them ONLY at Windows. That seems to be a bit short-sighted. I know it's support and extra investment one has to take into account. However, I would pay 25% extra to get game X for another platform, after getting it for Windows for instance. When using Torque and taking care of not using too much OS-specific libraries in the process, you get those 25% free, as your linux build is exactly the same source, you just push it through another compiler.
We seem to be sitting on a chicken-or-the-egg problem. Due to no really big inventory of Linux games, there isn't much testing and optimising going on for the Linux build. But that testing and optimizing won't happen unless there are more Linux games.
I plan to add a Linux game to the list of availabilities, but it's still in the planning stages.
Community sites are hot nowadays, due to buzzword-compliant sites (web 2.0 and AJAX anyone?), but I think the games you play tell a great deal about what games you will like, and how to take criticism. I'll play around on it a bit more, just to make sure I have a good idea of its features.
On another note, I was wondering why so few companies make Linux games. My platform of choice happens to be OpenSUSE, and I know lots of people that really feel bound to Windows due to the lack of games they would like to play. I feel it's the world upside-down when you write a game, and then port it to another platform.
Luckily, GarageGames takes care of the dilemma of what platforms to support, and gives a (community-supported) Linux version. I can live with that. At least, there is a Linux version. What I don't get is that many people make games using the nice tools here, and target them ONLY at Windows. That seems to be a bit short-sighted. I know it's support and extra investment one has to take into account. However, I would pay 25% extra to get game X for another platform, after getting it for Windows for instance. When using Torque and taking care of not using too much OS-specific libraries in the process, you get those 25% free, as your linux build is exactly the same source, you just push it through another compiler.
We seem to be sitting on a chicken-or-the-egg problem. Due to no really big inventory of Linux games, there isn't much testing and optimising going on for the Linux build. But that testing and optimizing won't happen unless there are more Linux games.
I plan to add a Linux game to the list of availabilities, but it's still in the planning stages.
About the author
#2
11/29/2006 (6:16 am)
Tony: try running the servers under qemu or vmware while in one OS or the other. Since they don't require any input or video it shouldn't be to bad running it that way for testing.
#3
I predict the responses to this blog are going to be on the warmer side :)
11/29/2006 (7:31 am)
Linux gamers don't buy Linux games. Unless they are Linspire users, who are the greatest Linux users on the planet. They'll actually pay cash money to play games you sweat blood on making, as opposed to demanding them for free.I predict the responses to this blog are going to be on the warmer side :)
#4
When I was running Linux as my main OS, I bought Neverwinter Nights specifically because it had a Linux client available for download :) I did the same with Unreal Tourny as well. There are users out there that are happy to see closed source commercial games on Linux and will pay for them. Unfortunatly I think they're in the minority.
The catch 22 is that those who buy games for windows would probably buy them if they used Linux, but those people won't switch to Linux because there are not enough games available for it (or mainstream apps). Discussions of usability aside.
This turns into a vicious circle, why should developers spend time supporting a platform that will provide a few small number of sales. That lack of support in turn means people won't switch due to lack of games, which in turn means developers have no reason to support it...
As a big a fan of open source I still think the only way we'll see Linux really take a hold in the home market and have sufficient game support is if big brand developers both gaming and application wise, start releasing for the os. What it would take to make that happen, I've no idea, I certainly don't think it will happen any time soon though.
I think the reason Linux has taken off so well in the server market is down to the availability of solid applications such as Apache, MySQL, Php, Postfix and other email servers. When you want to run a webserver and have a choice between the same software running under windows or running under Linux, I don't find it suprising to see people choose Linux. Unfortunatly I don't think we've reached a similar level of support for games and software usful to the home market. Although the numbers are increasing, it's probably going to be a while before they reach the critical mass needed for a major shift (if ever?).
11/29/2006 (9:47 am)
Quote:Linux gamers don't buy Linux games. Unless they are Linspire users, who are the greatest Linux users on the planet. They'll actually pay cash money to play games you sweat blood on making, as opposed to demanding them for free.
When I was running Linux as my main OS, I bought Neverwinter Nights specifically because it had a Linux client available for download :) I did the same with Unreal Tourny as well. There are users out there that are happy to see closed source commercial games on Linux and will pay for them. Unfortunatly I think they're in the minority.
The catch 22 is that those who buy games for windows would probably buy them if they used Linux, but those people won't switch to Linux because there are not enough games available for it (or mainstream apps). Discussions of usability aside.
This turns into a vicious circle, why should developers spend time supporting a platform that will provide a few small number of sales. That lack of support in turn means people won't switch due to lack of games, which in turn means developers have no reason to support it...
As a big a fan of open source I still think the only way we'll see Linux really take a hold in the home market and have sufficient game support is if big brand developers both gaming and application wise, start releasing for the os. What it would take to make that happen, I've no idea, I certainly don't think it will happen any time soon though.
I think the reason Linux has taken off so well in the server market is down to the availability of solid applications such as Apache, MySQL, Php, Postfix and other email servers. When you want to run a webserver and have a choice between the same software running under windows or running under Linux, I don't find it suprising to see people choose Linux. Unfortunatly I don't think we've reached a similar level of support for games and software usful to the home market. Although the numbers are increasing, it's probably going to be a while before they reach the critical mass needed for a major shift (if ever?).
#5
Currently at work, I'm working on a project using wxWidgets, where the customer has demanded linux and windows support. I have zero platform-dependent code warts, and I still get issues on specific platforms. While it leads to better code in the end, I've spent a lot of time fixing stuff that only manifests [and *can* only manifest] on one platform. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
Personally, I think it looks pretty awful when GG have a crossplatform engine [T2D], and in the true spirit of eating their own dog food... only release Rack 'em up road trip for one platform. But then, that's a whole separate topic of joy and ranting.
In the end, the reason I'm here is because of TGE's Linux and OSX support. I'm sure there are many others in the same boat, and for Garagegames, they have several hundred dollars of my cash because of it. The problem is, that's only several hundred dollars. I'll bet that there's more than several hundred dollars that GG have earned by getting TSE ready for release for only one platform [so people buy it because it's ready, rather than driving people away because it only runs on one platform].
Gary (-;
11/29/2006 (12:19 pm)
The reason that most companies don't make linux games is that, like it or not, supporting extra platforms *is* more effort, time, and money, even if they start with the right tools. And then, they get the release out the door after substantial expensive, and... linux users don't lay down any cash. For many people, the moneytimeeffort to make something cross-platform pales in comparison to all the other moneytimeefforts, but for most big houses who have historically orientated themselves towards windows, it doesn't. [Witness TSE; the more it gets tethered to DirectX, the more effort it'll evidently take to separate it.]Currently at work, I'm working on a project using wxWidgets, where the customer has demanded linux and windows support. I have zero platform-dependent code warts, and I still get issues on specific platforms. While it leads to better code in the end, I've spent a lot of time fixing stuff that only manifests [and *can* only manifest] on one platform. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
Personally, I think it looks pretty awful when GG have a crossplatform engine [T2D], and in the true spirit of eating their own dog food... only release Rack 'em up road trip for one platform. But then, that's a whole separate topic of joy and ranting.
In the end, the reason I'm here is because of TGE's Linux and OSX support. I'm sure there are many others in the same boat, and for Garagegames, they have several hundred dollars of my cash because of it. The problem is, that's only several hundred dollars. I'll bet that there's more than several hundred dollars that GG have earned by getting TSE ready for release for only one platform [so people buy it because it's ready, rather than driving people away because it only runs on one platform].
Gary (-;
#6
I agree with you about Rack'em up. However, given that the game is not released through GarageGames, but published by Oberon Entertainment, I could imagine Oberon only having DRM tools for one platform. It still remains Windows only, however, nothing to change that.
@Edward Gardner
I don't know where you got that impression. It's true that Linux has a more outspoken Free Software culture, but that's only on the outside. In windows, it's called pirating. If you want to sell your game in Linux, I can imagine it needs to be at least on par with some free alternatives before people will buy. On the other hand, I can imagine windows users employing cracks and copying games between friends way more than Linux gamers. I bought Rune, Soldier of Fortune, Heavy Gear 2, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Doom 3, Robin Hood, Tribes 2, Neverwinter Nights all in full-price versions, which is more than half the amount I have given to shrink-wrapped games ever.
I noticed that most Linux gamers have a bit of a idealistic side to them : if it runs Linux, and we even moderately like it, we'll buy it.
@Tony Richards
I think the 'access' part is largely due to some unnatural fear of 'a server OS'. Granted, it's different than Windows, which makes people uncomfortable. I think some people specialising in Linux support might be a good thing (tm) for the entire community, but that implies interest.
If there would only be a possibility to test the platform compatibility with the many games that are freed. For instance, a way for somebody in the TGB community to get his NDA-bound hands on the source for Tankbuster and Sploidz, to let him/her get a Linux shrink-wrapped build out of the door. I'm sure it would be an enriching experience for everybody, and it would identify the parts where Linux/MacOS X support is still not 100%. That would enhance the building experience, and encite people to at least try to support so-called alternative OSes
11/29/2006 (2:00 pm)
@ChunkyKsI agree with you about Rack'em up. However, given that the game is not released through GarageGames, but published by Oberon Entertainment, I could imagine Oberon only having DRM tools for one platform. It still remains Windows only, however, nothing to change that.
@Edward Gardner
I don't know where you got that impression. It's true that Linux has a more outspoken Free Software culture, but that's only on the outside. In windows, it's called pirating. If you want to sell your game in Linux, I can imagine it needs to be at least on par with some free alternatives before people will buy. On the other hand, I can imagine windows users employing cracks and copying games between friends way more than Linux gamers. I bought Rune, Soldier of Fortune, Heavy Gear 2, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Doom 3, Robin Hood, Tribes 2, Neverwinter Nights all in full-price versions, which is more than half the amount I have given to shrink-wrapped games ever.
I noticed that most Linux gamers have a bit of a idealistic side to them : if it runs Linux, and we even moderately like it, we'll buy it.
@Tony Richards
I think the 'access' part is largely due to some unnatural fear of 'a server OS'. Granted, it's different than Windows, which makes people uncomfortable. I think some people specialising in Linux support might be a good thing (tm) for the entire community, but that implies interest.
If there would only be a possibility to test the platform compatibility with the many games that are freed. For instance, a way for somebody in the TGB community to get his NDA-bound hands on the source for Tankbuster and Sploidz, to let him/her get a Linux shrink-wrapped build out of the door. I'm sure it would be an enriching experience for everybody, and it would identify the parts where Linux/MacOS X support is still not 100%. That would enhance the building experience, and encite people to at least try to support so-called alternative OSes
#7
And as for companies why would they spend their time making something cross platform when the market in Windows games is large enough. I think the true beauty of this is it leaves a market for indie's. If indie's focus on cross platform they can reach people who don't normally get decent games.
I compare windows to the same reason Intel holds such a majority. AMD has almost always been the superior chip (I always build my computer with them) but intel got it's name out there. So people who didn't know anything about computers knew about this Intel chip so they wanted to make sure it was in their computers. But all the big performance people who knew about computers always put AMD chips in theirs.
11/30/2006 (2:13 am)
Well I would have to say I think the number of linux users out there over estimate the number of linux users also. Yes it's true most webservers use linux (although in recent surveys the amount of new websites created with .asp grows constantly). But when it comes to what do most consumers use at their house where they play their games it's windows with such a massive majority over linux and mac that it's disgusting. People prefer easy and since everything out there that the average person needs works on windows they stick with windows. People have to understand those that are into programming and really into computers are not the majority of computer users. The majority like to know very little about their systems and just have them work. And since they know windows and everything works with windows they get windows.And as for companies why would they spend their time making something cross platform when the market in Windows games is large enough. I think the true beauty of this is it leaves a market for indie's. If indie's focus on cross platform they can reach people who don't normally get decent games.
I compare windows to the same reason Intel holds such a majority. AMD has almost always been the superior chip (I always build my computer with them) but intel got it's name out there. So people who didn't know anything about computers knew about this Intel chip so they wanted to make sure it was in their computers. But all the big performance people who knew about computers always put AMD chips in theirs.
#8
I concur with your idea about the market opportunity. The market IS less crowded in MacOS and Linux, which gives Indies an advantage. People just like you because you provide your game for their niche OS, even before testing the game.
11/30/2006 (3:39 am)
@J SearsI concur with your idea about the market opportunity. The market IS less crowded in MacOS and Linux, which gives Indies an advantage. People just like you because you provide your game for their niche OS, even before testing the game.
#9
Exactly.
At the risk of being antagonistic, Edward and his company have been there, done that. They spent an extremely large amount of their limited resources supporting linux over and above even what they knew (thought) they could make out of it.
They were insulted by a strong majority of "linux users", especially in the demands that all of their hard effort should be given away for free, since "linux is an open platform". Moral of the story: you can talk all you want, until such time as linux users actually start spending enough money to cover development costs, not to mention actually making a profit, game development for the linux operating systems is a huge business mistake.
I'm very sorry, but this is flat out wrong. 100% market share of nothing is still nothing. Track record of several indie companies that have attempted to penetrate the "uncrowded linux market" have proven beyond a doubt that it is a big mistake in the long run. You cannot even cover your development costs, much less make any money.
And for the record, I'm a big linux fan. All of my "game development" (muds mostly) before joining the Torque community was on linux exclusively. However, business is business, and that's what history has proven--and trust me, we pay attention to these things.
11/30/2006 (12:19 pm)
Quote:
I agree with you about Rack'em up. However, given that the game is not released through GarageGames, but published by Oberon Entertainment, I could imagine Oberon only having DRM tools for one platform. It still remains Windows only, however, nothing to change that.
Exactly.
Quote:
@Edward Gardner
I don't know where you got that impression. It's true that Linux has a more outspoken Free Software culture, but that's only on the outside.
At the risk of being antagonistic, Edward and his company have been there, done that. They spent an extremely large amount of their limited resources supporting linux over and above even what they knew (thought) they could make out of it.
They were insulted by a strong majority of "linux users", especially in the demands that all of their hard effort should be given away for free, since "linux is an open platform". Moral of the story: you can talk all you want, until such time as linux users actually start spending enough money to cover development costs, not to mention actually making a profit, game development for the linux operating systems is a huge business mistake.
Quote:
I concur with your idea about the market opportunity. The market IS less crowded in MacOS and Linux, which gives Indies an advantage. People just like you because you provide your game for their niche OS, even before testing the game.
I'm very sorry, but this is flat out wrong. 100% market share of nothing is still nothing. Track record of several indie companies that have attempted to penetrate the "uncrowded linux market" have proven beyond a doubt that it is a big mistake in the long run. You cannot even cover your development costs, much less make any money.
And for the record, I'm a big linux fan. All of my "game development" (muds mostly) before joining the Torque community was on linux exclusively. However, business is business, and that's what history has proven--and trust me, we pay attention to these things.
#10
There's also several ill-fated Linux focused companies I can cite. Granted, folks like Loki made some pretty big business mistakes, but it seemed like it was a bit of an uphill battle for them to begin with. If it were any other market, maybe it wouldn't have been catastrophic. That of course is pure conjecture on my part :)
Differences in OS flavors was a nightmare for support, different versions of SDL, different paths to OpenAL, home directory permissions, all gave slightly different problems. Granted, we were a bit clueless to start, but, it wasn't easy and I can't say for sure that its any easier two years later, even with excellent dedicated staff. The general problems with developing for and supporting PCs (driver hell, etc) seem amplified on Linux. Stack on that the general predisposition for free versus pay software, and its a tough, tough business to be in.
Now, we did very well with Linspire, but those are special, saavy people in my opinion.
-edit-
I want to know when "teh" will be added to websters, so I don't have to keep correcting myself :)
11/30/2006 (1:36 pm)
It wasn't just our experience with Lore that colours my perception, I know other companies faced similar challenges from the Linux community at large. I'll let them say something if they want to, I am not outing anyone here :)There's also several ill-fated Linux focused companies I can cite. Granted, folks like Loki made some pretty big business mistakes, but it seemed like it was a bit of an uphill battle for them to begin with. If it were any other market, maybe it wouldn't have been catastrophic. That of course is pure conjecture on my part :)
Differences in OS flavors was a nightmare for support, different versions of SDL, different paths to OpenAL, home directory permissions, all gave slightly different problems. Granted, we were a bit clueless to start, but, it wasn't easy and I can't say for sure that its any easier two years later, even with excellent dedicated staff. The general problems with developing for and supporting PCs (driver hell, etc) seem amplified on Linux. Stack on that the general predisposition for free versus pay software, and its a tough, tough business to be in.
Now, we did very well with Linspire, but those are special, saavy people in my opinion.
-edit-
I want to know when "teh" will be added to websters, so I don't have to keep correcting myself :)
#11
11/30/2006 (2:17 pm)
Could this not be better on the forums somewhere? This is starting to be a very interesting discussion I think, and one that is worth having. To be continued here : www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=54520 
Torque 3D Owner Tony Richards
I do as much testing on Linux as I do on Windows, just to make sure I'm not breaking anything. Nearly all of my Torque server testing is done on Linux. The reason Linux is such a pain for me is I only have one computer, so I have to reboot to do any client-side Linux testing.