TSE Milestone 4
by Brian Ramage · 08/17/2006 (12:55 pm) · 88 comments
There are a lot of questions being asked about TSE with the announcement of Torque X and MS4 coming up fast. I thought I'd answer some of them here to clear things up a bit and also show some pretty orc pictures ;)
Thanks to John Kabus for all the lighting work he did to make this possible. Also thanks to Joe Maruschak and Mark McCoy for all painstaking tweaking to the Orc's textures and animations for this demo. Tim Aste has done some pretty cool work with his characters, check up with him for some more screenshots and video of his work. Pat Wilson and Ben Garney also jumped in for some last minute code tweaks on the Orc demo. Hope to get it to y'all soon.
On to the Q/A:
- When is MS4 release?
Sometime soon, not this week though.
- What's going on with TSE after MS4?
Like other launches, we will go through a period of bug fixes based on community feedback and push out some release candidates until we feel it's ready for a full 1.0 release.
- September release?
We're hoping that we'll be ready for a 1.0 release in September. It depends on how solid it's looking. We're not going to release in September unless it's really ready to go.
- Is the TLK included with TSE?
Yes, the TLK is fully integrated with TSE and has some new features like hardware shadowing (including self-shadowing), dynamic lighting with specular and normal mapping support, and HDR/DRL solutions. John can fill you in on the complete rundown of all the cool new features.
- What's going on with OpenGL and fixed function support?
OpenGL will not be supported in the 1.0 release, but we will have OpenGL and fixed function support further down the road.
- What's the status on Atlas?
Atlas is near to becoming "runtime feature complete" that means you'll have everything you need to run Atlas and import terrain from tools like l3dt. Full editor support will not be in for Atlas however in the 1.0 release. Please note that legacy (TGE) terrain runs just fine in TSE, incuding all the editing options. I believe it outperforms TGE's terrain as well, but I haven't actually done metrics to prove it.
- What's the deal with TSE/Torque X?
They are completely separate products with different feature sets. We'll be announcing more information about Torque X when it's closer to release. Torque X is completely C# managed code however, so if you are looking for a C++ solution with shaders, TSE is the only way to go. And of course, you can still go to the 360 with the TSE path with TSE 360.
- Will TSE be standalone when final?
Yes, TSE will be its own product, you won't need to purchase TGE in order to buy TSE. Yes, the price will go up.
- If I buy Early Adopter, will I have to pay extra for updates?
If you buy the Early Adopter version of TSE now, you will not have to pay anything for the full 1.0 update or bugs fixes from then on.
- Are we going to see some new demos we can download?
Yes, although when is a bit uncertain. We should be showing some of the new stuff at PAX coming up next weekend though, so stop on by to check them out.
- Will TSE ship with the Legions demo?
Probably not anytime soon no.
- What's going on with that forest picture on the DSOTD?
We might have an exciting announcement regarding that in the near future ;)
Thanks to John Kabus for all the lighting work he did to make this possible. Also thanks to Joe Maruschak and Mark McCoy for all painstaking tweaking to the Orc's textures and animations for this demo. Tim Aste has done some pretty cool work with his characters, check up with him for some more screenshots and video of his work. Pat Wilson and Ben Garney also jumped in for some last minute code tweaks on the Orc demo. Hope to get it to y'all soon.
On to the Q/A:
- When is MS4 release?
Sometime soon, not this week though.
- What's going on with TSE after MS4?
Like other launches, we will go through a period of bug fixes based on community feedback and push out some release candidates until we feel it's ready for a full 1.0 release.
- September release?
We're hoping that we'll be ready for a 1.0 release in September. It depends on how solid it's looking. We're not going to release in September unless it's really ready to go.
- Is the TLK included with TSE?
Yes, the TLK is fully integrated with TSE and has some new features like hardware shadowing (including self-shadowing), dynamic lighting with specular and normal mapping support, and HDR/DRL solutions. John can fill you in on the complete rundown of all the cool new features.
- What's going on with OpenGL and fixed function support?
OpenGL will not be supported in the 1.0 release, but we will have OpenGL and fixed function support further down the road.
- What's the status on Atlas?
Atlas is near to becoming "runtime feature complete" that means you'll have everything you need to run Atlas and import terrain from tools like l3dt. Full editor support will not be in for Atlas however in the 1.0 release. Please note that legacy (TGE) terrain runs just fine in TSE, incuding all the editing options. I believe it outperforms TGE's terrain as well, but I haven't actually done metrics to prove it.
- What's the deal with TSE/Torque X?
They are completely separate products with different feature sets. We'll be announcing more information about Torque X when it's closer to release. Torque X is completely C# managed code however, so if you are looking for a C++ solution with shaders, TSE is the only way to go. And of course, you can still go to the 360 with the TSE path with TSE 360.
- Will TSE be standalone when final?
Yes, TSE will be its own product, you won't need to purchase TGE in order to buy TSE. Yes, the price will go up.
- If I buy Early Adopter, will I have to pay extra for updates?
If you buy the Early Adopter version of TSE now, you will not have to pay anything for the full 1.0 update or bugs fixes from then on.
- Are we going to see some new demos we can download?
Yes, although when is a bit uncertain. We should be showing some of the new stuff at PAX coming up next weekend though, so stop on by to check them out.
- Will TSE ship with the Legions demo?
Probably not anytime soon no.
- What's going on with that forest picture on the DSOTD?
We might have an exciting announcement regarding that in the near future ;)
About the author
#2
May I ask as to why this is being pushed yet again further down the road? It makes it impossible for Mac and/or Linux users to use the products they purchased. And the fact that it was on the milestones list prior to a 1.0 was the primary reason I purchased way back when I did.
I mean I'm glad that you guys are getting some products out the door and all, but game engines for Windows are a dime a dozen now. It seems like you guys are moving further and further away from supporting what I view as your primary strength, being crossplatform.
This is the second or third, product you guys have announced early on would be cross platform, but then decided to make windows only for instance, TGB.
Anyways congrats on the release, but honestly I'ld like to see GG focus on the Mac and Linux support for a little bit. Where has that gone?
Regards,
Dreamer
08/17/2006 (1:11 pm)
Quote:- What's going on with OpenGL and fixed function support?
OpenGL will not be supported in the 1.0 release, but we will have OpenGL and fixed function support further down the road.
May I ask as to why this is being pushed yet again further down the road? It makes it impossible for Mac and/or Linux users to use the products they purchased. And the fact that it was on the milestones list prior to a 1.0 was the primary reason I purchased way back when I did.
I mean I'm glad that you guys are getting some products out the door and all, but game engines for Windows are a dime a dozen now. It seems like you guys are moving further and further away from supporting what I view as your primary strength, being crossplatform.
This is the second or third, product you guys have announced early on would be cross platform, but then decided to make windows only for instance, TGB.
Anyways congrats on the release, but honestly I'ld like to see GG focus on the Mac and Linux support for a little bit. Where has that gone?
Regards,
Dreamer
#3
08/17/2006 (1:11 pm)
I just purchase TSE and can't wait to try it out keep up the great work can't wait to see MS4 and to see what up with the amazing forest picture.
#4
Dreamer, we needed to complete the 1.0 feature set first to finalize the GFX system before starting the OpenGL version. The lighting system in particular makes heavy use of the GFX system and required changes to it.
As TSE is getting ready for 1.0 our options are; release 1.0 and then work on OpenGL support, or hold back 1.0 until OpenGL support is complete. I think most people prefer having 1.0 released, so they can start to use its features in their projects. ;)
08/17/2006 (1:22 pm)
Awesome writeup Brian. :)Dreamer, we needed to complete the 1.0 feature set first to finalize the GFX system before starting the OpenGL version. The lighting system in particular makes heavy use of the GFX system and required changes to it.
As TSE is getting ready for 1.0 our options are; release 1.0 and then work on OpenGL support, or hold back 1.0 until OpenGL support is complete. I think most people prefer having 1.0 released, so they can start to use its features in their projects. ;)
#5
That pic looked an awful lot like Ben Garney's Forest Pack to me.
08/17/2006 (1:24 pm)
Quote:
- What's going on with that forest picture on the DSOTD?
We might have an exciting announcement regarding that in the near future ;)
That pic looked an awful lot like Ben Garney's Forest Pack to me.
#6
Here are the requirements from the product page:
Windows 2000/XP
Pentium 1 GHz
256 MB RAM
DirectX 9 Compatible 3D Graphics Accelerator - WITH LATEST GRAPHICS DRIVERS
Anywhere you see TSE mentioned and the little requirement icon is present, it says Windows. There is no little apple or penguin.
Also, do we have other products that are not OpenGL other than Marble Blast Ultra on the XB360 or TorqueX? TGB is NOT Windows only.
Cross platform in this day and age is a lot more about PC, consoles, hand helds and mobile than it is Win, OS-X, and Linux. We are working to make these platforms available to Indies, and we are making a lot of progress in that area. We have stated that we are backing away from internally dedicating resources to Linux and gave a lot of reasons why that is.
I am trying not to be unsupportive here, so please do not take this as a flaming response. Dreamer, if you truly feel you have been wronged, contact benjaminb at garagegames dot com and we can take this discussion off line.
@Kory: Just to be sure, that amazing forest solution is not native in the engine. Watch for upcoming announcements.
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
08/17/2006 (1:45 pm)
@Dreamer: To clear things up a bit, TSE was never promised to be cross platform at launch. In fact, it was the opposite. When we started TSE, shader support on OpenGL was a very open issue, and we have been very honest about the fact that the OpenGL support would be hard to come by. That said, we are working out the issues, but there are no promises what-so-ever about release date. Our product page does not say we are providing cross paltform support, it just says that it is written with cross platform support in mind.Here are the requirements from the product page:
Windows 2000/XP
Pentium 1 GHz
256 MB RAM
DirectX 9 Compatible 3D Graphics Accelerator - WITH LATEST GRAPHICS DRIVERS
Anywhere you see TSE mentioned and the little requirement icon is present, it says Windows. There is no little apple or penguin.
Also, do we have other products that are not OpenGL other than Marble Blast Ultra on the XB360 or TorqueX? TGB is NOT Windows only.
Cross platform in this day and age is a lot more about PC, consoles, hand helds and mobile than it is Win, OS-X, and Linux. We are working to make these platforms available to Indies, and we are making a lot of progress in that area. We have stated that we are backing away from internally dedicating resources to Linux and gave a lot of reasons why that is.
I am trying not to be unsupportive here, so please do not take this as a flaming response. Dreamer, if you truly feel you have been wronged, contact benjaminb at garagegames dot com and we can take this discussion off line.
@Kory: Just to be sure, that amazing forest solution is not native in the engine. Watch for upcoming announcements.
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
#7
08/17/2006 (2:08 pm)
Whats DSOTD and where is the pic.
#8
On the other hand, I DO agree with you that GG should still focus on having cross platform mean OS's and not just physical platform. It just goes along with the theme of Indies to cover all bases when the indie might not be able to afford a 2nd computer just to get a Windows OS.
08/17/2006 (2:11 pm)
@Dreamer - Not that it's needed, but just to add my .02 about both John and Jeff's response, I'd also say that DirectX is a TON easier to code in than OpenGL. It makes way more sense to finish a graphics engine in either DirectX or OpenGL and then port to the other platform. OpenGL is known to be a lot more tedious of a platform to work in, so it makes sense to do a DirectX version, finish everything up, then port to OpenGL. I'm also sure that over half the people who've purchased the engine, if not a lot more, are Windows developers, so they shouldn't hold everyone up just for a Mac/*nix specific version.On the other hand, I DO agree with you that GG should still focus on having cross platform mean OS's and not just physical platform. It just goes along with the theme of Indies to cover all bases when the indie might not be able to afford a 2nd computer just to get a Windows OS.
#9
You guys need to remove/fix this link from the TSE FAQ. It's what I (& probably many other Mac/Linux folk) have been assuming about OpenGL support for TSE.
It states:
Will TSE run on Mac and Linux?
OpenGL support (and thus Mac and Linux support) will be implemented before the final version of TSE ships.
Now... I'm not trying to argue otherwise of course, but it does lead to the confusion. I'm happy to see mention of it in the post above that you will have it further down the road. I'll probably purchase it before it goes out of EA based on this, so I don't end up paying a lot more when it's done.
08/17/2006 (2:15 pm)
@Jeff:You guys need to remove/fix this link from the TSE FAQ. It's what I (& probably many other Mac/Linux folk) have been assuming about OpenGL support for TSE.
It states:
Will TSE run on Mac and Linux?
OpenGL support (and thus Mac and Linux support) will be implemented before the final version of TSE ships.
Now... I'm not trying to argue otherwise of course, but it does lead to the confusion. I'm happy to see mention of it in the post above that you will have it further down the road. I'll probably purchase it before it goes out of EA based on this, so I don't end up paying a lot more when it's done.
#10
Ultimately, if it's so critical that you need OGL support for TSE, it is possible to add it in yourself, but it's going to be complicated. This is where the tradeoff of letting GG do it for you comes it. You wait for it, but save yourself the hassle.
Now then, as for TSE MS4 itself, i have to say looks mighty fine, kudos to John and everyone at GG :p
Fluffy is now my desktop picture. :)
08/17/2006 (2:19 pm)
Having done some work with OGL in TSE(i dont have anything to show yet, it's complicated stuff :p) I can attest to why GG probably doesnt have it done yet. First and foremost is the differences in OGL and D3D, namely the way it handles stuff with rendering. OGL uses vars, defines, and functions, while D3D keeps everything stacked in enums, which makes for a problem getting stuff all lined up in GFX, because you have to pull D3D's stuff out of the enums, or get OGL to agree with D3D's stuff, neither of which is pleasant. It's designed to be abstracted, but the major differences(as well as alot of stuff in OGL and D3D dont have direct conversions, like texture coordinate stuff) makes it a lot harder to make it work without lots of effort. This is likely why GG's focusing more on getting everything feature complete and bug free, before taking the time to sit down and line up OGL and D3D.Ultimately, if it's so critical that you need OGL support for TSE, it is possible to add it in yourself, but it's going to be complicated. This is where the tradeoff of letting GG do it for you comes it. You wait for it, but save yourself the hassle.
Now then, as for TSE MS4 itself, i have to say looks mighty fine, kudos to John and everyone at GG :p
Fluffy is now my desktop picture. :)
#11
08/17/2006 (2:21 pm)
Just wanted to mention that it's not that we haven't done any OpenGL work on TSE. It's that, for 1.0, we are only shooting for DX9.
#12
Steve
08/17/2006 (2:48 pm)
I love the Orc with that sword. Can't wait to play with MS 4. Good job guys!! Now where's Constructor? ;)Steve
#13
08/17/2006 (3:08 pm)
We have not forgotten you Mac/Linux users! We like OpenGL, it's just a real pain in the ass supporting both. Now that we're far enough along, we've got a clear idea of what TSE needs, and so we can (as Pat said) continue our OpenGL efforts.
#14
And the lights on that orc is the best i have seen so far,nice work all .
08/17/2006 (3:16 pm)
Really lovely blog, answered alot of my questions, thanks alot !And the lights on that orc is the best i have seen so far,nice work all .
#15
Ooh shooting for a release a whole month before I predicted. Yay.
@ Jesse DSOTD is Development Snapshot of the Day. It's the TSE milestone 4 announcement. IIRC it is the lower right pic.
08/17/2006 (3:20 pm)
? Concerning TLK in TSE. You say TSE has TLK integrated. Does this mean that TLK owners will have a seperate TLK product for TSE or the original TLK is for TGE and TSE comes with full TLK support? I'm not complaing either way. Just curious. Ooh shooting for a release a whole month before I predicted. Yay.
@ Jesse DSOTD is Development Snapshot of the Day. It's the TSE milestone 4 announcement. IIRC it is the lower right pic.
#16
08/17/2006 (3:23 pm)
We are also hoping to get the GameFest materials (high-res) up online for you guys tomorrow, thanks Brian for putting these up. We wanted to do it today, but too much stuff overflowed so it's gonna have to happen tomorrow [hopefully].
#17
If you would like the same lighting system in TGE you'll need a TLK for TGE license. I think you're already a TLK licensee - check out this thread for TLK specific info and questions/answers. Feel free to post any additional questions you have in the thread and I'll be happy to answer them.
08/17/2006 (3:32 pm)
TSE uses the Synapse Gaming Lighting System (the same one used by TLK for TGE), it comes with TSE and is available to all TSE licensees.If you would like the same lighting system in TGE you'll need a TLK for TGE license. I think you're already a TLK licensee - check out this thread for TLK specific info and questions/answers. Feel free to post any additional questions you have in the thread and I'll be happy to answer them.
#18
@everyone - I think maybe wording the TLK issue differently will help clear up some confusion as I'm seeing the same questions over and over. There is no TLK for TSE. TSE's lighting system has been built by John based on TLK for TGE. There is no TLK product for TSE or anything, it's just that the lighting that TSE now uses is comparable (actually better) to TLK.
If you are going to build games in TSE, don't even worry about TLK, just buy TSE. If you are going to build games in TGE, then buy TLK as TLK is a TGE related product. Make more sense now?
08/17/2006 (3:50 pm)
@M-theory - People prefer OpenGL generally because it's #1 free and #2 cross-platform. I think you'll find that people who prefer OpenGL will also agree that it's not as easy to work with as DirectX. That and the fact that DirectX is a Microsoft product =P@everyone - I think maybe wording the TLK issue differently will help clear up some confusion as I'm seeing the same questions over and over. There is no TLK for TSE. TSE's lighting system has been built by John based on TLK for TGE. There is no TLK product for TSE or anything, it's just that the lighting that TSE now uses is comparable (actually better) to TLK.
If you are going to build games in TSE, don't even worry about TLK, just buy TSE. If you are going to build games in TGE, then buy TLK as TLK is a TGE related product. Make more sense now?
#19
08/17/2006 (4:58 pm)
What about those who bought TLK for use with TSE before this announcement? (not me, but there are some)
#20
There was no TLK for TSE. How could anyone buy something that not exists?
TLK is for TGE only.
08/17/2006 (5:21 pm)
@MincetroThere was no TLK for TSE. How could anyone buy something that not exists?
TLK is for TGE only.
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